Talk:Dagor Dagorath

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The previous version of the page said that Arda would end after the Dagor Dagorath, but The Shaping of Middle-Earth says clearly that the Elves and the Powers shall be renewed. It speaks nothing of the End of Arda. I am unaware of any other sources with differing accounts... what are they, if any?

The texts speak about the end of Arda Marred (i.e. the world of the stories), and the renewing of the Elves and Powers in Arda Restored (i.e. the world as it was planned to be). Jor 22:30, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Hîn Húrin

The name of the tale is "Narn i Chîn Húrin", but in isolation the form should be "Hîn Húrin". When the plural article in precedes a word that begins in h, h becomes ch and the final -n of the article disappears. Hîn Húrin, i Chîn Húrin, Narn i Chîn Húrin.

[edit] The text

I rewrote the first section of the article, which stated that "previous versions" of the Silmarillion ended with Mandos' prophecy. In fact, every version that Tolkien ever made of the Silmarillion ends with this prophecy (although in some late revision Tolkien wrote an "X" across two paragraphs of it, the ones about the "gods growing young" in the light of the revitalized trees). The reason it does not appear in the published Silmarillion is a purely editorial decision on Christopher Tolkien's part (albeit one with a very good reason). It seems almost certain that JRRT had rejected the Prophecy, but he never actually went back to the Silmarillion text and explicitly crossed it out.

[edit] Why?

Why does it seem certain? This thing doesn't have any references.

You could most definitely use Unfinished Tales as a reference but I would prefer someone with greater knowledge of Tolkien's work than myself to add these in. Furthermore there may be references in other works by Christopher Tolkien which I have not read. Hydraton31 11:41, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The phrasing in "The text" section above suggests to me that whoever wrote it was familiar with some Usenet and internet debates on this subject. As such I'd speculate that they based the 'almost certain' rejection of the Prophecy on Tolkien's 1958 version of Valaquenta stating that the Dooms of Mandos do not foretell whether the Marring of Arda would be corrected. Christopher Tolkien excluded the prophecy from The Silmarillion on this basis. However, he then noted in the HoME series that he later found references to the prophecy and even a new version of it which were written after the sole passage he had taken to mean that the prophecy was removed. That one line suggests that Tolkien considered removing the prophecy of the Last Battle, but it is contradicted by later texts and there is no indication that he ever considered removing the Last Battle itself... just the Valar's foreknowledge of it. The best references for the late history of this are in "Morgoth's Ring", "The War of the Jewels", and "The People's of Middle-earth". --CBDunkerson 12:20, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

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