Talk:Dagestan

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Contents 1 Ethnic groups, insurrection 2 What happened? 3 Official Language(s) 4 Derbent 5 Name edit war 5.1 DAGESTAN FULL NAME IS IN CHECHEN! 5.2 WIK, WIK, WIK, WIK.... 5.3 cut from Wikipedia:Protected page, and copied here 5.4 Chechen spelling? 5.5 TRANSLITERATION, NOT CYRILLIC SCRIPT 6 Population number 7 Copyvio 8 Russian and Azeri population numbers have wrong numbers of zeros 9 "First" Dagestan succesion

[edit] Ethnic groups, insurrection

I'm confused by the edit made by User:Bogdangiusca. First off, there's no ethnic group called Dagestani, so I'd like to know where the population statistics came from. Second, I don't understand what this is about Dagestan declaring independence and declaring holy war on Russia. The way I understand the story, some Chechens and Dagestani converts under Shamil Basayev staged a very unsuccessful insurrection (which I referred to in the article, probably misleadingly, as an invasion from Chechnya) in 1999. Nothing much came of it other than convincing the Russians to invade Chechnya, and it wasn't backed by the government of Dagestan, so it seems very misleading to call it "declaring independence and proclaiming holy war." Isomorphic 05:44, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I fixed the thing about the ethnic group called Dagestani. He got his population statistics from this website:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/russia_ethnic94.jpg

I think the holy war on Russia was back in the 1800s. That's what Chechnya did back then.

-Daniel Nagy

[edit] What happened?

Someone screwed up the page. Fix it.

I screwed it up... I got an edit conflict after making a bunch of additions, tried to merge the two, and screwed up the table. Don't know how to fix it :-{ Isomorphic 02:53, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Ooops... that was me. Daniel Nagy

Actually I think it was an edit conflict with Wik's first contribution, and he promptly fixed the damage I did, for which I am grateful. The article has gotten a lot better. Isomorphic 06:13, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Official Language(s)

What are/is the official language(s) of Dagestan?

I'd reckon Russian is definitely official, but I don't know about others. The page at [1] lists four other languages, but I don't know if it's reliable. --Shallot 22:03, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Derbent

It seems that you said that the oldest and largest city in Dagestan is Derbent. Derbent is fairly small. I think the capital is the largest.

It says it's the largest here. I don't know one way or the other personally; I was just harvesting information. It's from a .gov site, so it should be accurate, but that doesn't mean it is. Isomorphic 00:13, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

There is now a new Derbent page. You are free to edit it.

[edit] Name edit war

[edit] DAGESTAN FULL NAME IS IN CHECHEN!

I'm talking about the full name right above the flag and coat of arms. Someone needs to fix it and make it in Russian.

[edit] WIK, WIK, WIK, WIK....

Please, I've tried to explain to you. The full name was in Chechen. I was in the process of changing it to Russian.

[edit] cut from Wikipedia:Protected page, and copied here

• Dagestan - protected due to revert war Dori | Talk 00:55, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)
  • Please revert it to my last version. This was obvious vandalism. --Wik 00:57, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)
    • I agree, but I don't want to break any of the rules of engagement. I'll let it sit for a while and then unprotect it (unless some other admin want to do something). Dori | Talk 01:01, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)
    • (Edit conflict post) As a neutral observer, I think Wik is absolutely correct in this instance - it does look like simple (repeated) vandalism. This should be unprotected and reverted. →Raul654 01:03, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)
  • Leave it the way it is. Invoked page protections need to remain arbitrary. Such protections should not reflect a POV. The conflict needs to be resolved in TALK. The current state of the article in question is ok. Kingturtle 01:09, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
    • The admin guidelines *expect* us to be able to differentiate POV edits from simple vandalism. Page protection is a perscription for POV, while warnings/banning is what we use for the latter. My common sense tells me that this is vandalism. I think pretty much everyone else here agrees. So why not revert and give Daniel a warning? (Which I have already done anyway) →Raul654 01:14, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)
  • Raul, you make a valid point. I cannot argue with it. The disagreement appears to be over whether the script should be in Russian or not. That can be hammered out in TALK. I have removed the specific text from the article. Kingturtle 01:30, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
    • This is ridiculous. Daniel and I wrote almost that entire page together. Why would he "vandalize" his own work? Wik just didn't bother trying to figure out what Daniel was doing. Isomorphic 01:42, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
      • Since when is inserting "STOP" or "*SIGH*" into an article anything but vandalism? He also repeatedly vandalized my user page. Can we please revert to my version? --Wik 01:45, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)
    • You were reverting his work in progress without even asking what he was doing. Of course he was annoyed. Furthermore, your second edit summary was "rv moron", and that was before he'd started putting in any messages. Wik, you contribute a lot, but I can see why people want to ban you. Isomorphic 01:49, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
      • That was after he started vandalizing the page by removing the correct Russian name and transliteration. And I can see why I want to ban you too. --Wik 02:01, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)
    • I just think you should assume good faith. Very few people are in the habit of deliberately defacing an article they've made major expansions to. Isomorphic 02:13, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
      • It is not appropriate here to call someone a moron. Please don't try to justify it. Kingturtle 02:14, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
        • Guess what? This may have been vandalism, but Wik did NOT listen to me at all. He completly ignored the reasons for my actions. The script was in CHECHEN, not Russian. Chechen is not the official language, and never will be. --Daniel Nagy
          • Why don't you just give the Russian name then so you can diffuse the situation? Also, please sign your posts, all you have to do is type ~~~~. Dori | Talk 02:50, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)
        • Thank you, good idea. Wik mentions me vandalizing the page by removing the correct Russian name and transliteration. That is a lie. The stuff that he had was in Chechen, not Russian. I was trying to correct it. --Daniel Nagy
      • In reviewing what transpired, two people were at fault. An edit war always takes two. Daniel, you should not have used Dagestan or User:Wik as springboards for communication. Wik, you should have put effort into listening to Daniel's concern. Each of you needs to learn to take these disputes to the TALK page. There was no emergency here. This was not a life or death situation. Yet, it caused an article to be protected and it wasted the time of a number of other users. We would much rather be editing than refereeing. Both of you, please review Wikipedia:Staying cool when the editing gets hot. Let's stay civil. Be cordial. Work together. Kingturtle 05:43, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

---

I suggest that the original Cyrillic script be reinstated once the page is unprotected. I also suggest that if Daniel starts to change it again, we wait to see where it goes. I don't know Russian, so I don't know what might be wrong with the version we had. I do know that Daniel's edits to this page so far have always improved it, so I'm willing to wait and see what he was up to. Isomorphic 02:31, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Mark makes a very good point and I suggest we listen to him. →Raul654 03:04, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)

Thank you again. What I was TRYING to do was change the spelling from Chechen to Russian. I was in the process of that until Wik interifered. --Daniel Nagy

If you want, post the correct Cyrillic script here and it can be moved into the article as soon as it's unprotected. Isomorphic 03:39, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, here's what it is SUSPOSED to look like in Russian:

Image:DagestanInRUSSIAN.jpg

(I am not positive at all that this is correct. Please, please help me get the CORRECT Russian spelling.) --Daniel Nagy

Daniel, I talked with BCorr, who posted the version that you said is Chechen. He took his spelling from the Russian Federation article on the Russian Wikipedia, here. I don't know where else to look for a Russian spelling... Isomorphic 05:07, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I know it's Chechen because some of the words are exactly the same as the full name on Chechnya. See for yourself. Compare it to the thing that Wik kept on changing back. --Daniel Nagy

I'm not sure what that demonstrates. Perhaps the spelling of the words on Chechnya is Russian, and also taken from the Russian Wikipedia? Isomorphic 05:29, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Chechen spelling?

I originally added the following to the article and think some people are saying that it's the Chechen spelling:

Дагестанская Республика Российской Федерации

(Dagestanskaja Respublika Rossijskoj Federatsii)

{Dagestan Republic <of the> Russian Federation) is what the words mean and why it may appear to someone the "same as Chechen

This is certainly Russian, but I did write it myself -- I'm not sure what the person above meant by a Chechen spelling other than what I noted above, but perhaps there is more confusion because of the stray accent marks in the graphic above and my original edit to the page -- they were in something that I copied it from, but I didn't put them here so that they can be copied after protection is removed if people wish.

I checked the Russian Wikipedia and that's where I got both the transliteration and the spelling of Dagestan -- see the article on Russian Federation: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8F (Россия)-- the fourth paragraph has a list of all the constituent republics of the Russian Federation, with Dagestan as Дагестан.

Меня хочется что я вам пому -- BCorr ¤ Брайен 05:20, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] TRANSLITERATION, NOT CYRILLIC SCRIPT

Yes, I was talking about the transliteration, not the cyrillic script. The part where it says, "Rossijskoj Federatsii," doesn't seem Russian at all. If you look at the Russia page, you will see that it says "Rossiyskaya Federatsiya," which is very different than the former transliteration. This is why I conclude that since I, myself copied the former transliteration from the Chechnya page, that it is in Chechen. (I was planning to change it to Russian, but Wik interfered.)

Another thought, is the word "federation," wrong in both Cyrillic AND transliteration?

--Daniel Nagy

Rossijskaja Federatsija is the nominative case for "Russian Federation". Rossijskoj Federatsii is the genitive case -- it means "of the Russian Federation". Another example: Sovetskij Sojuz is "Soviet Union" but Sojuz Sovetskikh Sotsialisticheckikh Respublik is "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics".

Respublika is "republic"; republiki is "republics"; and respublik is "of the republics". -- Thanks, BCorr ¤ Брайен 06:40, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)

Also, there is not, unfortunately, an absolute standard for transliteration of Cyrillic -- compare Russia with ru:Россия. Both are perfectly acceptable and the "j" is a y sound.

-- BCorr ¤ Брайен  06:46, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)

I see

Daniel, are you agreeing with the previous spelling then? I'd like to unprotect the page, but only if consensus has been reached. Dori | Talk 14:19, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)

I haven't gotten a response from Daniel, but his last comments makes me believe that he agrees that the previous spelling was correct. Therefore I am going to unprotect the page. If another revert war breaks out, it can be protected again. Dori | Talk 17:20, Mar 9, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Population number

Where did our 800K inhabitants number come from? 1997? Places like [2] [3] [4] all quote a number twice as high, and the per-ethnicity breakup also adds up to at least about as twice as much as that. --Shallot 21:50, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I should note that it's the _old_ per-ethnicity breakup that didn't match that. And also the population density number. I'll change the number and see if I can look it up in the history, could be a typo... --Shallot

[edit] Copyvio

I have discovered that the geography section was lifted from [5], which was also the source for our entire Derbent article. I have removed the offfending material here and listed Derbent on copyvio. Isomorphic 19:39, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Surely those few geography-related sentences are not copyrightable. We can simply rephrase them and restore the actual facts. --Shallot 20:06, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Alright, I'll rephrase and restore. My removal was mostly prompted by knee-jerk annoyance at discovering Derbent was copied. Incidentally, Daniel now says he has permission to use the text in Derbent, but I'd still rather rephrase this. Isomorphic 02:44, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I always had permission for the Derbent article. I emailed them BEFORE putting it there. Dagestan

[edit] Russian and Azeri population numbers have wrong numbers of zeros

8 millons of Russians is way too much :-). Mikkalai 04:53, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Currently, as noted not conspicuously enough in the article, the figures are for the entire Caucasus region. This is misleading and I'd rather have no figures at all. Isomorphic 16:57, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've removed the population figures. At some point if I get a chance I'll hit the library and see if I can get accurate figures for just Dagestan. Isomorphic 17:15, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think the old numbers should be restored. They are approximate, but reasonably suitable. --Shallot 19:22, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The problem is not that they're "approximate" it's that they aren't the figures for Dagestan. They're figures for the entire Caucasus region, and because of that they're misleading, as evidenced by Mikkalai's comment above. I'm removing them again. Isomorphic 21:48, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about those numbers that you removed, I was talking about the numbers that were originally in the article until some anonymous user replaced them with statistics for all of Caucasus. --Shallot 22:58, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Change that... it appears that the figures for all the ethnic groups other than Russians, Azeris, and Chechens really were for Dagestan, they'd just been incorrectly asterisked in the old version. Shallot, I noticed that your numbers are in some cases quite different from what was listed before. Could you cite source? Isomorphic 22:03, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Mostly from NUPI web pages and the E2 node for Dagestan. I extracted only the numbers relevant for Dagestan itself, obviously... --Shallot 22:58, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "First" Dagestan succesion

Can anyone give me info on the decleration of sovereignty declared in 1993 by Dagestan? Is this a true dec. of ind. or what? Here are the sites backing this U.D.I.

http://www.hunmagyar.org/caucasus/dag.html http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/a_enhet.exe?DAGESTAN

the latter link is stating 1991. Ive got a "third" in august of '99 down for sure but would like more information b4 doing Dag's succesionist page. Vital Component 5:42 AM E.S.T.

They conflict, and I don't have enough information to tell you which is correct. I'd need to hit a library. Isomorphic 18:04, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well give me something here. If you can find anything send it to my wikiscreenname. A good way of getting info is finding a leaders name of the goverment that seceded. I am gonna try my library.

Vital Component 6:11 pm

Anything I do will probably have to wait for the weekend. We'll see. The history section of this article has long needed attention. Isomorphic 17:52, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)