Talk:Cyrano de Bergerac

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Contents 1 Cause of Death 2 Cousin 3 Plagerism by Moliere 4 How to Spell Roxane 5 Play vs. History 6 Audio versions on the web 7 Cyrano Syndrome? 8 Thank You Donald 9 Removal of the character study 10 Moving so-called "plagiarism alert" to talk page 11 Cyrano's homosexuality

[edit] Cause of Death

What was Bergerac's cause of death? --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 17:58, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

It seems that a piece of plank dropped on his head.

That is Rostand's version. In fact he died of a disease (some historians believe syphilis). He wrote about his symptoms but never name it (for obvious reasons)--Iv 16:01, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cousin

I thought Roxane was said to be his Cousin in the play. In the Jose Ferrar film the captain definitely refers to her as "my cousin" as does, I think, Cyrano, when talking to Christian. Lordjim13 11:07, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plagerism by Moliere

It is not a supposition, it is a fact that Molière has taken the galley scene from the "Pédant joué" of Cyrano. Considering it is one of the most famous of Molière's scenes, one can consider him a talented author. Also being one of the first science-fiction author doesn't count for nothing IMHO. --Iv 16:01, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] How to Spell Roxane

What was Roxane's original spelling? Why is a modified spelling given in the article?

Roxane was the original spelling in the play. Roxanne or any other variant is technically incorrect. See http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext98/cdben10.txt RasputinAXP 17:52, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Play vs. History

This article mainly looks Rostand's view on Cyrano! The play is so famous (having made the author rich at once) that all the clichés of the ingenous play surpass by far the truth (or what research has found up to now). The historical Cyrano was indeed a versatile personality. Especially in writing letters he is very talented (Cyrano de Bergerac, Lettres satiriques et amoureuses, Desjonquères/Dix-septième siècle, 1999).

An excellent account of the historical Cyrano by Jacques Prevot can be found in "Libertins du

a sruble

[edit] Audio versions on the web

Around the web where are there any free audio versions in French, in English or both of Cyrano de Bergerac by Rostand?

[edit] Cyrano Syndrome?

I've seen a new term being coined in conjunction with Internet Dating entitled, "Cyrano Syndrome." The use seems to be in the context of people falling in love with through the email relationship and IM chat that ensues without really spending time with them physically in the same place or even on the phone. There seems to be a connotation that the "syndrome" often leads people to become very dissatisfied and very disillusioned when they finally meet up in real life. I don't know who coined the phrase, and there doesn't seem to be any online definitions to this phrase, but it would seem (based on the description of the play) to be based loosely on the play of Bergerac's life. The idea of a woman falling in love with an articulate writer/communicator who is not who she believes him to be. Any additions, thoughts, roots and instances of this phrase would be appreciated.

[edit] Thank You Donald

Do'nt forget to look at Donald's Gift ...and be polite. (Lunarian 11:39, 22 May 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Removal of the character study

I tidied this up a little to remove some of the play elements. Instead of transfering the Roxane character study (a 5-paragraph expository essay) to the play article, however, I deleted it completely, as I thought it was too long and specific for the purposes of an article about the play. It WAS a decent essay, however. Maybe if someone wants to create a seperate article about Roxane, they could get the character study out of the page history and use it as the bulk of the article. DamionOWA 07:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I removed it also in a previous edit - good idea for the writer to start a new article on Roxane. Adambrowne666 07:44, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moving so-called "plagiarism alert" to talk page

"*Plagiarism alert!* The following line quotes directly from http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/bergerac.htm !!! The real Cyrano de Bergerac had, in real life, very little in common with the hero of the Rostand play." A5 20:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cyrano's homosexuality

People keep removing the reference to C's homosexuality - maybe they think it's a piece of vandalism? - I've provided a citation linking to Don Webb's translation of L'Autre Monde, where he clearly explicates the gay nature of Cyrano's original works. Adambrowne666 06:04, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm probably not qualified to comment on how authoritative Don Webb is on this subject. But I'm looking at the particular page you've linked to ("The Other World: Some Questions and Answers, by Don Webb and Thomas R."), and I'm coming up empty for references to homosexuality. That little question-and-answer session does get into freethinking and radicalism, sure, but that's obviously not the same thing. Should the link go to some other page on that site? Iralith 19:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I can't find it either now - I remember the reference is a subtle aside - Don seems to not want to make a big deal out of it - but it is on that site somewhere. I might have linked to the wrong page. I'll find it when I have time. I remember though, when I read that observation and subsequently looked back over Other Worlds, I realised he was absolutely right - it's clearly a gay book; maybe it's because of the Rostand's emphatically heterosexual Cyrano that we find it hard to believe Adambrowne666 23:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

OK - I've fixed the link, thanks for pointing it out, Iralith. Adambrowne666 04:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Again, someone has removed the homosexuality reference. They have done it anonymously, and this is their only contribution to Wikipedia. Why? Do they feel threatened by this idea? I find the very notion that such a heterosexual hero of French theatre might be gay fascinating. The user was correct to alter the article where it said Roxane wasn't Cyrano's cousin, but they would be better to discuss the homosexuality matter before making such a sweeping and dramatic change. Yes, 'Other Worlds' doesn't categorically prove that Cyrano was gay - and in those times, there was far less of a distinction between gay and straight in any case - but there are numerous scenes (such as on the moon, when Cyrano is 'tickled to sleep' by young men) that strongly suggest that was his sexual orientation. When I have time, I will find those scenes online and cite them, as suggested. Also, I will amend the entry so it isn't so categorical - something like 'Cyrano may have been gay, as suggested by some chapters in his work'. In the meantime, please don't change the entry. Adambrowne666 10:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

My only criticism is with the link provided; Webb states flatly that he thinks Cyrano was gay, but doesn't explain (on that page, anyway) how he arrived at that conclusion. Could a more explanatory page be found on Cyrano's sexuality? Funnyhat 21:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The quoted episode that supposedly proves Cyrano's homosexuality is quite weak in accomplishing this "mission"; just a reference to "three or four boys" who massaged a tired Cyrano, causing him to sleep in less than a minute. Not quite enough time for anyone to engage in sexual activities with somebody else. And then, mr. Webb goes and flatly states that Cyrano was gay [1], without explaining how he reached this conclusion. The way I see it, when someone makes a claim, the burden of proof is on them. To make what I just wrote more easily comprehensible, if I state that elephants have feathers, I have to prove it - it is not the elephants or the zoologists who have to prove me wrong. On another note, I think this "X or Y was gay" thing has gone way too far. It appears to me that there is a campaign to present deceased (usually) persons as homosexuals just to raise the social status of this sexual orientation; a rather gauche, I would say, manner of "proving" that "only homosexuals are intellectually or artistically inclined and/or important". And such is the spread of this campaign that one would quite easily conclude that a sort of "anti-heterosexual" racism developing. Elp gr 09:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

You're right, it is weak - I'll look for more - but be aware that such a thing can never be entirely proven either way - so note that I've amended the sentence to not be so definitive. I'm very well aware of the so-and-so-in-history-is-gay phenomenon, and I am certainly not part of the 'anti-homosexual campaign', being straight myself, but I do believe in truth, and when, after reading Other Worlds, and then seeing Don Webb's suggestion that Cyrano was homosexual, it just made too much sense to deny. I wonder if this argument would have continued for so long if I'd suggested Cyrano had, say, blonde hair. Adambrowne666 23:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, the burden of proof is on Don Webb. In my eyes, it is quite a longshot to claim that someone is homosexual or heterosexual because s/he fell asleep by receiving a relaxing massage from the hands of members of the same or the opposite sex. If Webb can base his claims on more episodes that can substantiate his conclusions, fine. If that's all he has... Oh well.Elp gr 16:42, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know anything about Don Webb's claim, but having read L'autre Monde myself, I found one episode particularly ambiguous. While on the Moon, some of its inhabitants mistake him for an animal. He explains that he was captured and put in a cage with another earthling. As the other traveller was taller than him, the moon-creatures suppose that Cyrano is a female and the other one a male so they are left together in order to breed. Of course no sexual activity are described and Cyrano welcomes this as an opportunity to speak with another earthling. He then keeps refering to him as "mon masle" (my male). Here is a quote :

About a quarter of an hour later, the King ordered the monkeys’ keepers to take us away, and he gave the express order that the Spaniard and I be made to sleep together in order to multiply our numbers in the kingdom.

The King’s orders were obeyed to the letter. I was very happy with that, because I enjoyed having someone to talk to in my confinement as an animal. One day, my male companion (they took me for the female) told me what had really caused him to wander about the world and finally to leave it for the Moon.

I wouldn't call this a proof of homosexuality as Cyrano is used to shock and provoke (after all, he wrote a science fiction book at a time when even fiction was uncommon). The closer we have got to a proof has maybe to be searched in his letters (see my comment at the bottom of this page)--Iv 13:06, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

If you'll look at the links provided as citations, you'll see that it's not just Don Webb who makes this assertion. It is certainly true that there is considerable speculation about Cyrano's sexuality, not just on the web, but also in several books - as this article now states. Enough, I'm sick of talking about it; you're wasting my time. This is my last contribution to this discussion. 22:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Have your way. Speculation does not automatically become fact just because it is widespread. And if you feel those of us who are not willing to merely take your word - or Don Webb's - for it are wasting your time, then I cannot do anything about it. There are people who are willing to discuss their views. And then there are those who cannot tolerate criticism, skepticism and discussion.Elp gr 10:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi,

I remember having read something about Cyrano's homosexuality in the annex of the French edition of L'autre monde and États et empires du soleil. Sorry, I can't check now - I have not the book. Obviously, as said in this discussion, this is a supposition which is founded on some passages of his works (BTW, I think that there are other passages than the one cited), and these passages can also be interpreted differently.

But as wikipedians, we are not supposed to decide what is the good interpretation: we only have to report the existing interpretations and suppositions... Therefore, I think that the passage about Cyrano's sexuality must stay.

(And I will check for the book! I know that I did not actually give information, I'm sorry, I just wished you to relax :-))

Benio76 02:54, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I have been interested in the real Cyrano since I began to read some of his works. The letter that inspired Rostand's character Roxane was titled "Lettre à une dame rousse" (letter to a red-haired woman), this is a love letter. I have read somewhere (I hate it when "somewhere" is the best reference I can get) that the first version of this letter made reference to a man and was not signed by the author. It was later published under Cyrano's name and made reference to a red-haired woman. --Iv 12:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)