Talk:Cyprus dispute

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Discussion Archives: Archive 1, Archive 2, Archive 3, Archive 4

Contents

[edit] Basic decision

Hi people,

I would prefer not to go back to edit warring. Now we have to decide what we should do now. Should we work on an existing version to enhance it, or create a new version (I started basic work on this)? Opinions? - Snchduer 12:29, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New Version of Cyprus dispute

Well, due to recent developments (e.g. creation of the Civilian casualties and displacements during the Cyprus conflict) and controversy about versions (JL's version is "too neutral", Argyro's version is too one-sided), I would like to start this article completely anew, with a basic structure that is topic-oriented (not time-oriented). I will start this at Cyprus_dispute/New_version, without filling it with content yet. First of all, we need a "skeleton" of the article. When we have agreed on a structure, we will start filling the new version with content. If we see that at any point, editing seems to go smoothly, we may propose the unlocking of the article, with the agreed-on version becoming the starting point of the new article.

As soon as we have a working version, the structure of the article must stay the same until agreed otherwise in the future.

That at least is my idea of how we could work productively, moving from a deadlock that is of no benefit to anyone. - Snchduer 12:38, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

contribute!

Ok - the page is unlocked, and Argyro went back to edit-warring instead of discussing. Has been blocked for this behaviour, obviously, as well. Nevertheless, I would like to know if anybody is interested in creating a new version of the page, that could be more complete, and less timeline-centered (thus a bit less likely to create friction). Link is above. If I do not see any reaction on this new version thing within a week, I will simply request it for deletion. - Snchduer 23:14, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps there should be two pages: Cyprus Dispute (Turkish Cypriot view) and Cyprus Dispute (Greek Cypriot view). The current page can simply have basic data and have links to the other sites so that constant rewrites on one page will be unnecessary. - Expatkiwi 23:00, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Wow, discussion! (grin) Well, I would certainly like to see that some day as a project on Cyprus, but in an encyclopedia ... ? In this case, we would have two extreme POV articles heavily violating wikipedia's NPOV policy. And tiresome to the potential reader, to say the least. I would prefer the approach of the Civilian casualties and displacements during the Cyprus conflict article (I might be biased coz I put the structure there, however) - put appropriate information in appropriate sections, and keep historic information as short as possible. - Snchduer 11:10, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Unprotecting

Discussion seems to have stagnated. Unprotecting. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 23:49, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Argyrosargyrou

Dont try and turn this into the RoC explanation of the Cyprus dispute, this article is a political overview of the situation, if you want to talk about murders and death rates put it inCivilian casualties and displacements during the Cyprus conflict. Quoting what you saw on the TV is also not very encylopedic.

[edit] User: OOOklahoma

Hello all. OOOklahoma has made a number of edits with a Greek Cypriot POV that I have reverted. I'd like him to post the changes he wants, and we can discuss them case by case. They don't appear to be the copy and paste jobs that our dear friend Argyrosargyrou prefers; nevertheless, they are controversial. I'm wondering if he would cite his sources here, please. --Scimitar 23:15, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

He raised some interesting points, yet destroying NPOV in some changed sections. For instance, calling it "EOKA and TMT" campaign in the pre-1960 period is not completely out of line. Yet I would prefer some more neutral term like "extremist campaigns 1955-1959". Later on, he changed the '74 violence history to mentioning the deaths in single villages, which might be introduced - but I think and overall picture is more helpful. (cf. also diff) - Snchduer 23:46, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • I agree that the section title could be changed, but I would much rather stay away from individual massacres, because a) this article is an overview and b) that's an invitation to the kind of insanity we want to get away from. There are a number of documented abuses on both sides, and I fear getting into them would result in permanent edit warring. Still, let's wait and see if OOOklahoma has anything to say before decisions are made. --Scimitar 23:55, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • I like this persons changes with some small revisions like mentioning the end of enosis but should also mention that the Turks, for the time being have achieved their objective of Taksim or division. Extremist campaigns is a good title. I want to read the source of these changes and also if true this may call for some cautious revisions of other related articles.(UNFanatic)

[edit] Case by Case edits

[edit] EOKA / TMT in the 50s

Okay, as far as I can see, OOOklahoma's edits can be divided into four main parts: 1) Specifically wording "the Turkish invasion of 1974" as opposed to just "since 1974" in the opening paragraph 2) Information on Mehmet 3) Events of late October/early November 1967 4) Retaliatory murders of Turkish Cypriots.

I'm leaning towards including 1 and some of 3. If 2 and 4 can be verified, I think a brief mention of those would be appropriate as well. What do you guys think? --Scimitar 15:30, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I disagree with the change from EOKA campaign to Extremist campaigns. The EOKA campaign was the major organised violent campaign between 55-59, the TMT was ill equipped, unorganised and barely possesed any firearms in that period. Other than rousing diplomatic support in Turkey, it barely had a campaign to speak of. We shouldn't 'soften' titles to the point of distorting major incidents. --E.A 16:13, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It may have been poorly organized and ill-equipped, but it still qualifies as a counter-campaign, does it not? --Scimitar 17:05, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well it depends what you class as a campaign, the EOKA campaign was a carefully planned system of violence to achieve enosis. TMT used words more than action, see here: http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/renewal_of_violence%20-%20'57-58.htm
The only reason "The EOKA campaign" had its own title was because it was the major event of that period, we shouldnt try and dilute it for the sake of political corectness and say TMT was just as bad. I suggest "1955-59 EOKA campaign and creation of the TMT" - I think this title highlights more that TMT was a response to EOKA and enosis. --E.A 18:16, 23 Jun
I would agree with that title. --Scimitar 19:23, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Sounds ok to me as well, but waiting for a GR/GC point of view. - Snchduer 19:58, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
As far as I know, both EOKA and TMT are considered extremist campaigns(at least I do), regardless of the organizational aspects. (The Greek-Cypriots are more specific and consider EOKA-2 to be the real extremist group and EOKA, which immediately disbanded and had originally fought against the British for self determination, which the British did not allow, but later compromised on Independence. TMT entered the fray in the 1950s with EOKA though.) One wanted one extreme - enosis or union with Greece- and the other wanted the other extreme - taksim or division of the Island. Labeling it as only EOKA campaigns does not fully reflect everyone involved in where during the 1950's.(UNFanatic 00:11, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC))
Well if anyone can actually give evidence of a concerted TMT campaign in the 50's to achieve Taksim then go ahead. As it stands the article only mentions their creation and purpose, not enough to justify they ran a terrorist campaign. --E.A 11:47, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Okay, so about the OOOklahoma edits that I proposed we adopt- does anyone have any objections to me instituting them the way I suggested? --Scimitar 13:23, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, just mentioning Turkey as the reason of the split doesn't take into accout the Greek coup or the violence in the 60's. With regards to the 67 period, those edits were too specific. --E.A 22:56, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Tierra del Fuego solution

I apologize to the Cypriots for the displacement and the division that Turkey's invasion against Cyprus and ongoing occupation has caused.

Cyprus cannot be divided as Greek and Turkish Cypriots have properties and homes in all the areas of Cyprus.

Sorry to the Cypriots. I guess that Turkey has a long way ahead before becoming a democratic state.


Not that Turkey finished its struggle towards a perfect democracy, though I'd like to invite people to think about
the number of wars started by more "democratic" countries. This dispute doesn't have anything to do with democracy
in Turkey. There were also times Greece was ruled by the Army during this dispute. See the article for 21 April 1967
coup d'état in Greece ). Both sides have done things that require apology.

[edit] The interim peacekeeping force 1963-64

"on December 27, 1963, an interim peacekepeing force, the Joint Truce Force, was put together by Britain, Greece and Turkey. This held the line until a United Nations peacekeeping force, UNFICYP, was formed..."

There was an initial agreement between Britain, Greece and Turkey to form an interim peacekeeping force, but in the event neither Greece nor Turkey participated and the interim peacekeeping duties fell entirely to the British until the arrival of UNFICYP.

I propose to make the appropriate edit if nobody objects to this within the next few days.

--Gkaraolides 8 July 2005 13:18 (UTC)

[edit] There was no Turkish bombing in 1967

"Responding to a major attack on Turkish Cypriot villages in the South of the island, which left 27 dead, Turkey bombed Greek Cypriot forces..."

The Turkish Air Force did not bomb during the Kofinou crisis in 1967. They bombed during the Kokkina crisis in 1964.

I propose to make the appropriate edit if nobody objects to this within the next few days.

--Gkaraolides 8 July 2005 13:27 (UTC)


I am surprised to see no reference concerning the Akritas plan. Something that has been proven as having a direct connection to the Greek Cypriot Enosis Extremists planting bombs and Turkish cigarette butts in order to inflame the situation and lay the blame for the bombs on the Turkish Cypriots. The current President (Tassos) is directly linked to this organisation and there has been documented proof presented of his original long term plan for the island. Something which appears to have, unfortunately, worked perfectly for him.

[edit] Population Table

I went ahead and added a population table from the book specified. The table requires some work as I am not an expert in wiki coding but all the information is there verbatim from page 11. If someone sees more fit, place the table in a more appropriate location. Hopefully this wont cause too much of an uproar from either side of the fanatics that some real info was added instead of POV edits. --Kakonator 06:42, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Grivas: founder of modern guerilla warfare

first time at wiki, unsure if this is useful, however, somewhere there is a quote from Fidel Castro in which he attributes this fact to his own tactics at warfare . Needless to say,if true, interesting with the evolution of this form of warfare to its present state, used by terrorist most effectively.

Also, it is important to refine the history of Cyprus, by dating its origins to the time where its name originated: a word meaning copper in the language spoken in Egypt over 4000 years ago. Also, how did Cyprus get so many village names in Arabic, mostly obliterated by Turkey's recent efforts to completely change the toponomy of the land they occupy.

[edit] Arabic names

That's very interesting. Though I think that most of the town and province names in the republic have been gven Greek names, too? Seeing as you know so much could you give us a list with their root origin. I'd be interested to read about that.

[edit] POV Push

I have re-added the ROC's OWN document detailing how many of its citizens were displaced in 1974. If people wish to challenege the accuracy of the Republic of Cyprus Government how about discussing it before placing other, less accurate, citations live. Or does a third party know better than the ROC how many people lost their homes that year. Adam777 19:53, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Seems that some admit what the Republic of Cyprus says ONLY when it happens to benefit the other side... Anyway, the link u have provided from the Cypriot government says more than 160,000. i've added the third party source. it doesn't mean that the Cypriot government's source contadicts this one... the US Congress says about 200,000 and Cyprus says more than 160,000... Clear enough why we should include both. Hectorian 21:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I would argue that neither number benefits either side as there are still many thousands of displaced Greek Cypriots (and Turkish Cypriots for that matter). I thought there was a certain Irony in using ROC documents to contradict Aristovoulus's edits which are probably the most one-sided and partisan I have seen of any editor on Wikipedia (and Ive made edits on some English rugby articles and those guys are pretty one-eyed). Anyway I am not going to bother reverting cypriot related articles from now on. If people are prepared to honestly claim that Turkish Cypriots all moved into the enclaves for all those years JUST to get partition then their slight grip on reality cant be debated with and its pointless to try. I'm dissapointed that blatant nationalism can come to bear on wikipedia (not in your case, whilst we've disagreed in the past Ive found your edits common sense). It kind of makes a mockery of the concept of a wiki, plus its taken up too much of my time and I have, frankly, better things to do. I'd hate to see what it says about Cyprus on the Greek Wikipedia, I bet thats a riot. All the best. Adam777 23:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Talking about that period, the thousands of GCs who were living in the northern part of the island, the about 5,000 deads of the turkish invasion, the about 1,500 missing, the about 1,500 (or more?) trapped in the north, all we can say is about [...]. i think it is obvious why... I suppose u added the 160,000 number as exact (though the source u found was talking clearly approximately) because this was the lowest number u found, but that may be just my imagination... U are the second person who says that my edits are on the grounds of "common sense", and i tend to consider this a compliment:). Talking about the 'TCs in the enclaves' (implying EOKA-B) as if this was a reason for the invasion, u should go further back in history to see which was the reason for the enclaves... With this travel in the past, i bet u know where u will find youself... I am not justifying or legitimising the enclaves (nor i think any other greek does)... such a short historic memory does not apply to the Greeks... but, applies to others... Try the greek article about Cyprus in interwiki... it is short, no pictures, and if u can understand the greek alphabet, u may be able to recognise some of the words... It is not as NPOV as this one, but it is by all certainty more NPOV than this one... Be fine and wish u all the best too. Hectorian 23:56, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
With regard to the specific number of displaced Greek Cypriots. What brought my attention to that number is that is was different in most of the articles on Wikipedia, some mentioned 160,000, some 180,000 and some 200,000. So I went through the ROC websites until I found a number which was 'Over 160,000'. So thats the term I used. I was looking for consistency (and the irony of using an ROC document was amusing). Of course 'Over 160,000' could mean any number at all but if the number was far higher then the figure quoted would be closer to the higher figure. When it comes to these acts I think most of the world doesnt comprehend the figures anyway, most of the world has forgotten Cyprus, and whatever we write and argue about here isnt going to get one GC back their property, or bring back one murdered cypriot, Greek or Turkish. Adam777 01:30, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
You serious? :-) Aristovoul0s 16:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Number of refugees

Neither the "Country studies" site, nor the cited U.S. Library of Congress are 'inaccurate' sources. I expect Aristovoul0s and Adam777 to find a way to add both inside the article. If it is not done by tomorrow, I'll do it myself. Thanks. •NikoSilver• 09:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ceyhan and the Port Crisis

I think it could be interesting to mention that the current crisis between Turkey and the EU over the ROC's access to Turkish (air)ports can be linked to strategic Turkish energy policy concerns. This is at least what somebody in the Ceyhan article suggested. Any thoughts on that? Letus 20:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Correct this, please

"This call for enosis grew louder after Britain took administrative control of the island in 1878, to prevent Ottaman homeland from Russia following the Congress of Berlin."

to prevent Ottoman homeland from Russia following the ..? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.112.30.245 (talk) 00:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Origins of Votes in the Referenda

Does anyone have more precise information on the exact origins of the vote percentages? The text says that certain percentages of Greek and Turkish Cypriots voted with yes or no. The numbers in the tables do however correspond to Communities. As far as I am concerned it is not clear whether this is the same. If I am not wrong the Turkish Cypriot region is home to a large number of Turkish settlers. Were the settlers allowed to vote? How many mainland Greeks were allowed to vote in the Republic-controlled area? Letus 14:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Developments

These links were added, because they seemed appropriate.

If someone(s) belives it belongs somewhere else, feel free to move them.

Φilhellenism 03:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Can we soften the tone on Britain?

There's the odd hint of what seems to be anti-British bias in this article.

Use of words like 'dictator' in reference to the Governor, the reference to Britain's promise to SATISFY the demand for enosis, the suggestion that Macmillan deliberately aggravated the situation by provoking Turkey to take a more aggressive stance, and the suggestion that by applying a nomenclature to the two high-level ethnicities Britain was some way implicit in laying the grounds for the dispute.

Unless these comments can be substantiated by reference, can I suggest:

1. The Governor assumed legislative and administative powers, empowered (by who?) to rule by decree. 2. Britain's promise to CONSIDER demands for enosis. 3. Macmillan canvassed Turkey's views on Cyprus. 4. Leave mention on the British creation of 'Turkish Cypriot' and 'Greek Cypriot' but delete the commentary.


Thoughts?

I agree, feel free to balance it.


[edit] Weasel words

there is a lot of weasel words, like "most Greek cyriots would hypothize"

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