Talk:Cyanide

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Contents 1 Templates 2 A minor factual discrepancy 3 General 4 How fast can cyanide kill? 5 LD100 6 Antidote 7 Cyanide glasses 8 Extraction of plant toxins 9 Ivenho Co of CANADA in Monywa, Burma 10 Chemical equations aren't right 11 Enibrety? 12 Use in photography? 13 Suggested sub-page 14 "Cyanide ions are released ..." 15 What is this article for? 16 Nitrate/nitrite 17 Measurability and natural occurrence 18 Taste of cyanide 19 image 20 Onion smell? 21 Scent 22 Martin Bormann 23 Fishing Neutrality 24 csi refference

[edit] Templates

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[edit] A minor factual discrepancy

If you take a look at [1] and particularly section 1.9.2.4 you will find that it is stated clearly that cyanide does NOT bind more strongly to methemoglobin ("Cyanide is more strongly drawn to methemoglobin than to the cytochrome oxidase of the cells, effectively pulling the cyanide off the cells and onto the methemoglobin.") It is due to the higher quantity of methemoglobin. -- Villahj Ideeut 04:33, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] General

I'm going to put this in talk so people can understand this clearly. I worked on heme proteins (and for that matter cyanide) well over ten years in graduate school and through a couple postdocs. Cyanide is a deadly compound because of its effects on ferric heme proteins. It doesn't bind especially well to ferrous heme proteins (that's carbon monoxide that does so). Cutting off cytochrome c oxidase, which cyanide does very well, will shut off aerobic metabolism, and because of the rise in concentration of metabolic intermediates, eventually shut down all anaerobic metabolism as well.

Hemoglobin is a ferrous heme protein. One therapy for cyanide poisoning is to convert part of the hemoglobin in the blood to the ferric form, to provide a pool for internal cyanide and dilute the poison. That therapy would be useless if cyanide preferentially bound to the ferrous form of hemoproteins.dwmyers

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I'm not really stalking you, Bryan. Two queries. (1) I didn't really understand the vitamin B13 sentence-can this be clarified. the second (2) I thought, possibly incorrectly, that almond oil was extrcated from sweet almonds? jimfbleak 06:59 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)

[edit] How fast can cyanide kill?

Cyanide's toxicity is well-known. I'm under the impression that a small amount of the stuff is enough to kill an adult person in seconds. It seems rather weird, though, so is it true? One imagines the suicide pills mentioned in the article would have to be pretty quick. -- Kizor 23:38, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• Seconds is a bit of an exageration for mortality. A few minutes seems the consensus, although loss of consciousness would be quicker and maybe as little as 30 seconds for a lethal dose of hydrogen cyanide gas. Physchim62 09:32, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have removed loss of conciousness awaiting sources that cyanide causes unconciousness before death. --mc

Coma and syncope are listed as possible consequences of cyanide poisoning in the ATSDR reference that's already listed in the article. AxelBoldt 15:01, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia rules are that we need an article from a peer-reviewed journal. --mc

That is not correct, but I agree that such an article would be a welcome addition to our references list. AxelBoldt 17:46, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the claim that cyanide causes rapid unconciousness because of absence of citations. Wikipedia requires a peer-reviewed journal or an academic book from a reputable publisher:

Reputable publications include peer-reviewed journals, books published by a known academic publishing house or university press, and divisions of a general publisher which have a good reputation for scholarly publications.

from Wikipedia:No_original_research.

Also, the presence of mitochondrias is not an indication of a particular effect, because cells can do anaerobic combustion. --mc

The policy says we need a reference to a reputable publication; the list of reputable publishers given above is not meant to be exhaustive, as indicated by the term "include". A publication on a website maintained by the CDC, written by the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, an agency of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, is clearly reputable.

I have seen no mention of rapid unconciousness at the link you have provided above. --mc

But I don't think we should discuss the subtleties of policies here, that's besides the point. What is the real reason that you don't want to have rapid unconciousness mentioned? Does it have something to do with the death penalty, or the Holocaust? AxelBoldt 01:14, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

WP:AGF and no. --mc

I think it's more of a philosophical point... IMHO, apart from gunshot wounds to the head, most if not all forms of death involve unconsciousness as an immediately anterior state. The French sources I have added are quite categorical about it: convulsive coma then death. I feel that it is up to mc to provide sources that state that cyanide causes "instant" death without a passage through a comatose state. Physchim62 (talk) 12:12, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I have not claimed that cyanide causes instant death. I have left the coma in last time. I have not seen sources that unconciousness arrives quickly. --mc

I am not persuaded that the struggling of cyanide poisonning subjects is a convulsive coma. I have found indications to the contrary on the internet, which I shall not cite since they are not peer-reviewed. I believe that the sources which mention convulsive might be copying a rumor. I want to remove convulsive from the article. --mc

I still don't get what you're up to. First it's all about citeable sources, and now we are supposed to remove information found in numerous citeable sources based on unciteable internet rumours? Please simply state what your agenda here is, so that we can put it in the article in an NPOV fashion rather than dancing around it like this. AxelBoldt 02:03, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Convulsions are widely reported as a common feature of cyanosis (see, for example, the INRS references), but not as a universal symptom. Again, you seem to be raising points which are more philosophical that truely descriptive. This is a peer-reviewed source on the toxicity of cyanides, This is the current CDC case definition. Physchim62 (talk) 18:17, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] LD100

What is the LD-100 (lethal dose at which point 100% of the subjects die) of (pure) cyanide? P.S. is this link just CN? How can one have just CN? I thought CN was an ion...

• LD₁₀₀ values do not have much meaning as there is always variability in the reaction of individauls to different poisons: this is notoriously true of cyanides. Quoted LD₅₀ values for potassium cyanide are 5–10 mg/kg for rodents. The IDLH (Immediate Danger to Life and Health) value is 25 mg/m³ (measured as cyanide, source NIOSH (US)). Physchim62 10:54, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• The "Cyanide standard solution" that you cite will of course contain a counter-ion to ensure its electrical neutrality, doubtless either sodium or potassium. Physchim62 10:54, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Antidote

The article does not mention about amyl nitrate being the antidote. Does anyone have any information regarding how soon after exposure to cyanide that amyl nitrate would be affective? Thank you

• Amyl nitrite is not strictly an antidote. It is used as first aid, as it can be given my non-medically qualified people, while waiting for a doctor to arrive and administer an intravenous antidote. As amyl nitrite is inhaled, it would only be effective while the victim is still breathing, say during the first five minutes after acute poisoning (in any case, as soon as possible). Having said that, there is some debate as to whether amyl nitrate is effective at all (see the HSE link on the article page). Physchim62 09:29, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cyanide glasses

I believe that one of the 10 spies named by CIA mole Aldrich Ames used a cyanide pill hidden in a compartment in the frame to kill himself before being tortured by his Soviet officials. I don't recall the man's name, and this was mentioned in Discovery's SpyTek show (I have the 2 cassette set). Calyth 18:36, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Extraction of plant toxins

Needlees to say that cyanide is one of many deadly toxins present in the yew (taxus baccata) im trying to do as much background reasearch on the levels of toxcisity present in the seeds of a yew tree. I have 2 questions my first is how does one (non comercially) extract cyanide or cyanide salt from a seed? My second question is other then the bitter almond smell how else can it be detected to be present in a substance?

1. Eat it, your stomach will do the extraction for you.
2. An equimolar mixture of iron(II) and iron(III) ions in solution will give a deep blue colour (Prussian blue) in the presence of cyanide ions. Physchim62 07:52, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ivenho Co of CANADA in Monywa, Burma

As far as I know, Cyanide compound is banned in mining. But Ivenho Co of Canada use it in their mine in Monywa, Burma.

Just want the world to know it.

PP

[edit] Chemical equations aren't right

The chemical equations on this page are not mass nor charged balanced.

If someone wrote something like this on their homework or test, I doubt they would even receive partial credit.

I don't mean to diss the content on the page, but come on! We're talking about freshman chemistry, here.

Thanks for pointing out the opportunity for improvement! Please Be bold in updating pages while you correct factual problems like those when you find them. Also, what does "diss" mean? --Amoore 04:40, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

In fact the norm in organic chemistry is not to balance equations, look at any copy of the Journal of Organic Chemistry or any sophomore book. However you are right in a sense, because the norm is also to write the reagents above/below the arrow as in this example; this can't be done easily in Wikipedia at present, hence the "error." I will try to write up something tonight to fix it. Thanks for mentioning it, Walkerma 17:35, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Enibrety?

"At doses insufficient to cause rapid loss of consciousness, the most widely reported symptoms are vertigo, enibrety, confusion and a feeling of tightness around the chest." -- "Enibrety" appears not to be a word. [2] -- 1 january 2006

Yup, thanks, the word is inebriety, meaning drunkenness, intoxication. AxelBoldt 07:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use in photography?

Saw a bottle of solid cyanide powder in a camera shop (IDR if it was of the sodium or potassium variety, but it did have a Kodak™ label and I was surprised just the same to see it). What role does it have in developing, processing, or printing film? knoodelhed 09:45, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

It is used to form gold cyanide, which precipitates fine particles of gold during certain printing techniques: in effect, it is a handy way of forming a soluble form of gold. See also Love in the Time of Cholera by Gabriel Garcia Marquez where one of the characters (a photographer) commits suicide using gold cyanide. Physchim62 (talk) 16:28, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested sub-page

Can I suggest we move the second half of the article to List of people killed through cyanide or something similar? It's valuable information, but it deserves to be linked from this article, not actually included in it. Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 15:11, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Cyanide ions are released ..."

From "Cyanide", subsection "suicide" we read "Cyanide salts are sometimes used as fast-acting suicide devices. When they reach the stomach acids, cyanide ions are released; therefore they work faster on an empty stomach."

Well, chemists know that this statement is incorrect: salts release their ions in the act of dissolving. My guess is that an empty stomach is hastens death because of the lack of dilution. I also dont know if those poisoned burp HCN, which would make sense except that HCN is probably highly soluble in water. I couldnt find an HCN entry.--Smokefoot 00:38, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

It could also be the binding of cyanide onto certain foodstuffs, notably sugars (the Rasputin story). To find HCN, you should look under hydrogen cyanide ;) Physchim62 (talk) 00:43, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Excellent idea, a key question is whether cyanohydrins form from sugars and HCN, and whether they are less toxic than HCN itself.--Smokefoot 01:48, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What is this article for?

There is very little chemistry in this article. I think a decision is needed about the purpose of it. What would a reader expect? Alan Pascoe 22:33, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Well there's also a KCN article, an NaCN stub, an HCN thing too. Lots of redundancy and non-correlation and urban and suburban legends. These chemical articles do invite lots of non-chemists to chime in, which I think is healthy so long as they can handle the facts. --Smokefoot 01:24, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I think a reader would expect an overview of the chemistry of the anion, i.e. those reactions which are typical to the cyanide anion rather tha to a particular compound. The article should also contain a discussion of its role as a ligand, and of its toxicology (as both of these are relatively general). It's true that we are having difficulty assembling guidelines for inorganic anion articles, and that most of them are not up to scratch at the moment: all comments are welcome. Physchim62 (talk) 01:46, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nitrate/nitrite

There is a lot of confusion around about amyl nitrate vs amyl nitrite. For instance, this FAS fact sheet uses both words in two separate 'treatment' sections. This leads me to believe that sources available on the web may not be very reliable on this point; are there any editors with a solid enough health-and-safety background to check that this article's references to both are correct? (And if they are chemically similar enough to be discussed interchangeably, that itself ought to be stated.) --Calair 02:10, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Measurability and natural occurrence

Hello what values for cyanides are measurable?! This means how low can one go. Is there a diffenrence for measurability between water and solid substances. What is the natural occurrence of cyanides? What are normal values of cyanides for building materials?

[edit] Taste of cyanide

I reverted an edit referring to this story about a man's suicide note revealing the taste of cyanide for the first time because that story doesn't seem very reliable. There are several cases of people who have survived after ingesting KCN (this document, for instance, records a man who recovered after swallowing 3 grams), so there's no obvious reason why it would take a suicide note to reveal what it tastes like. --Calair 06:50, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

While reading this article, I came across these two seemingly conflicting statements:

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The most usual route of absorption is by inhalation of hydrogen cyanide gas, which can be formed from alkaline cyanides and certain complex cyanides by the action of acid. Hydrogen cyanide poisoning is also common as a result of smoke inhalation after house fires.

Ingestion is equally dangerous, although this route of absorption is usually deliberate (suicidal or criminal). Absorption through the skin is also possible, though rare.

---

---

Britain's Health and Safety Executive(HSE) has recommended against the use of solutions A and B because of their limited shelf life, potential to cause iron poisoning, and limited applicability (effective only in cases of cyanide ingestion, whereas the main modes of poisoning are inhalation and skin contact)

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In the first one, it is said that absorption through skin is rare. Compared two the other two, I would think absorption would be the rarest of the 3.

Then it states that the main modes of poisoning are inhalation and skin contact. Which is it?

SLATE 19:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

You will find that Wiki-Chem articles are heavily contributed to by well intentioned folks who are more likely to share safety information and anecdotes than technical content that requires actual knowledge of the underlying chemistry and biochemistry. Its the old problem of people wanting to talk even if they dont know what they are talking about. For this reason, safety information should be treated with skepticism and one should simply to go to the MSDS sheet that is usually cited. Also for this reason, the accumulation of safety comments require periodic cleaning. This accumulation of almost random anecdotes and warnings is one of the weaknesses of the WE-chem project, IMHO. --Smokefoot 20:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] image

I removed the following from the introduction to the article, it was left there by an anon a few days ago, and belongs here.:

NOTE: The valence-bond structure to the right is incorrect; there should be a lone pair of electrons on the nitrogen as well as on the carbon. Perhaps someone else knows how to correct the image.

I don't know if that's correct or not, but it certainly doesn't belong on the article's page. --Storkk 11:49, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Onion smell?

My chemistry teacher said he was "almost killed" in a lab accident involving cyanide, and said it smelled like fried onions. Does this sound right?

[edit] Scent

As everyone's sense of "scent" (smell) varys, it is impossible to discount that someone may interpret the odor in that way. As it is clearly documented that it is somewhat rare for people to even notice the odor, and less the ability to encounter the odor and be able to place the scent... granted, being involved in an experiment with the substance, having an incident, and then encountering the scent clearly affords the person the link the two directly and definitively (though I would contend, an altering of the pure form scent would occur in the small controlled environment with limited sample for experiment in a school lab over full scale releases).

However, this seems to be more a matter of semantics... as to what you actually relate the smell to as an equivalance. ie onions as opposed to almonds. Though the correct, and accepted definition is ALMOND - since the cyanide can be directly linked to the nut. I would expect others with more definitive scientific background to weigh in, but believe they would mention the same issue of "individual smell ability." --JosephLenard 07:01, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Question.... read somewhere that NASA had their astronauts carry a pill of KCN "just in case things turned wrong" at least in the 60s.

Trying to verify this ok?

[edit] Martin Bormann

.. didn't die of cyanide poisoning. I suggest this link be removed, concurrent with your own article on Bormann. In Anthony Beevor's book "Berlin", Bormann is stated as perhaps "the only high ranking Nazi official to die from an enemy bullet". This was after Artur Axmann's account of the escape from the bunker that is actually used on your Bormann page. 81.77.191.234 23:38, 26 January 2007 (UTC)anon

[edit] Fishing Neutrality

"Many fish caught in this fashion die immediately, or in shipping. Those that survive to find their way into pet stores often die from shock, or from massive digestive damage. The high concentrations of cyanide on reefs so harvested has also resulted in cases of cyanide poisoning among local fishermen and their families, not to mention irreversible damage to the coral reefs themselves and other animals in the area." This seems a little "emotional" if you know what I mean? I'm not saying it's not necessarily true, but it needs to be written with the proper "encyclopedic style", and citations would be nice too. I'm not sure if this is neautrality? I may have used the wrong header? I'm not sure, if you think this goes under a different heading feel free to change it (from NPOV to whatever). Qberty 05:08, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I dont see how it is considered "emotional" that cyanide fishing causes harm to fishermen and their families through poisioning. it seems rather straightfoward to me. if you REALLY think pointing out facts is not neutral, change the article instead of posting a silly nomination. Marshy0 01:20, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

yes sir *bow* forgive me Qberty 10:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] csi refference

in the csi episode where abby smells cyanide gas she doesnt colapse, she drops to the floorthen the other agent(timothy) drags her when he finds out why she droped(stupid and geeky ot say but its true ^_^)--Hicups0002 11:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)