Talk:Cuneiform script

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Contents

[edit] Comments

It should be noted that the origins of cuneiform are highly speculative.

Ben Brumfield

I wouldn't have said that. The development of cuneiform from drawn pictographic to cuneiform pictographs to simplified forms appears quite clear in many cases, particularly for more concrete concepts like body parts, foods and everyday objects. The book Reading The Past: Cuneiform (I don't remember the author), published by British Museum Publications, is a simple introduction to the scripts: it has a small section where it demonstrates the evolution of common pictographs, like those for foot, wheat, barley, fish and water, into the later, more stylised, cuneiform representations. thefamouseccles 00:37 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I'd kind of like to rephrase the litany of languages to indicate the progression from one to another. First stab:

The Akkadians borrowed cuneiform from Sumerians, and many signs in the Akkadian use of cuneiform retain both the Sumerian logographic value and the phonetic value associated with the Sumerian word. Thus for example, the sign KASH (which represented "beer" in Sumerian) retained both the logographic value "beer" and the phonetic value kash, even though the Akkadian word for "beer" was shikarum.

The same process occurred when the Hittites borrowed cuneiform from the Akkadians, except that signs in Hittite also retained logograms based on Akkadian. Something similar may have happened in Elamite cuneiform.

We should also mention polyvalence.

We should also mention the role that cuneiform had in the formation of the Ugaritic and Old Persian alphabets.

Ben Brumfield

btw, shikarum is the root of both the slang word "shickered" (sp?) and "cider". -phma

I am so not buying that! -Ben

You'd better. I can't confirm "shickered", but even Oxford Dictionary draws "cider" back to Hebrew shekar, which comes clearly from the same root as shikaru (-m was dropped around 1500BC, if I recall it correctly). --Oop 14:57, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)

Cuneiform has a specific format for transliteration.

Is that to say that there is an internationally accepted way to transliterate Cuneiform into the roman alphabet (i.e. our alphabet)? If so, it'd be nice to say this more explicitly. References to web sites or books describing that standard would also be nice.

-- Ryguasu

Yes, it is. There is an international standard for transliterating cuneiform, described at the bottom half of the article on transliteration. It may well be time to move that elsewhere, though. --Ben

I removed the sentence listing Canaanites among groups who had adopted Cuneiform as a writing system. Assuming that the person who added that was talking about Ugarit, they don't qualify for two reasons:

1. The use of Old Babylonian in documents was widespread across the Near East during the 14th/15th century BC. Cultures that used cuneiform (Assyrians, Babylonians, Hittites) used it, but so did cultures whose writing systems were unrelated, such as Egypt and Ugarit. Similarly, just because diplomatic documents were written in French during the 19th century, that doesn't mean that Russians ever adopted the Latin alphabet.

2. Ugarit did use a cuneiform-like alphabet, but this appears to have been a process of idea-borrowing similar to that leading the creation of the Cherokee syllabary, and even though the mode of writing (wedge-shaped imprint on clay) was identical, and some individual signs were probably borrowed, the Ugaritic alphabet is a totally different beast from Cuneiform.

Ben Brumfield

Some of the text on this page, most of what was added in the second edit, seems to be copied from this URL: http://www.upenn.edu/museum/Games/cuneiform.html

I'm not sure how to handle this, or even if it is an issue, but maybe someone would like to look it over?
Anakolouthon 22:45 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I'd just like to note that (as far as I can tell) the Ugaritic cuneiform system was not entirely an abjad, but closer to a true alphabet. It contains three characters which represent the vowels a, i and u. I think these may all represent aleph in consonantal situations, but I'm unsure. Can someone clear this up? thefamouseccles 00:27 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Does anyone have any images of cuneiform glyphs that they could upload? It would make the article a lot easier for a new reader to orient themselves around I think. (It would also be superior to using Unicode characters, both because almost nobody has fonts that can display Unicode cuneiform, and because the glyphs would be easier to look at if they were larger). --Delirium 22:26, Oct 27, 2003 (UTC)

There is one at the French Wikipedia, apparently from the Louvre, according to the image page. Adam Bishop 22:29, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Simplified _and_ abstract?

I do not understand how something can be "simplified and abstract", as quoted on the last sentence in the first paragraph of the article: "Through repeated use over time, the pictorial representations became simplified and more abstract."

The definition according to [dictionary.reference.com]:

  1. Considered apart from concrete existence: an abstract concept.
  2. Not applied or practical; theoretical. See Synonyms at theoretical.
  3. Difficult to understand; abstruse: abstract philosophical problems.
  4. Thought of or stated without reference to a specific instance: abstract words like truth and justice.
  5. Impersonal, as in attitude or views.
  6. Having an intellectual and affective artistic content that depends solely on intrinsic form rather than on narrative content or pictorial representation: abstract painting and sculpture

In none of those do I see how it is related to "simplified", in my opinion, it seems more like the Antonym than the Synonym.

- A monkey 65.117.220.93 16:42, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Considered apart from concrete existence: an abstract concept. would be my take. Look, an abstract face, representing happiness:
:-)
It's simplified and abstract. --Pjacobi 18:03, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It's abstract, because the images are further removed from reality. It's simplified because that makes them easier to draw. dab 10:31, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Unfortunately, the images have no information attached to them other than that the origina is in the British museum. I am not even sure if the text is in Akkadian or in Sumerian (the writing looks 3rd millennium-like, but it may still be either). We should either find out what these tablets are, or replace them with images of identified tablets. dab 10:31, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

ok, so here is an example of a well-referenced tablet [1]. only, I'm not sure about the copyright status of the image. other links: [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] dab (ᛏ) 14:44, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] When is the earliest known example of cuneiform or proto-cuneiform?

Proto-Egyptian hieroglyphs seem to go back to about 3600 BC, and proto-cuneiform is around the same time, correct?--Rob117 15:31, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

yes, both arise ca. mid-fourth millennium, and it's impossible to say which came first. Their invention was probably not independent, either, but I don't think anyone knows if the Egyptians copied the Sumerians, or vice versa. dab (ᛏ) 16:17, 4 September 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Proto-Babylonian?

The article implies there's no civ antedating Babylonian. I've heard of research in the Indus region that suggests one. Trekphiler 17:15, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Proper names of Babylonia and Assyria

I propose a merge with the article Proper names of Babylonia and Assyria, origin of the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica. --JFK 09:06, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

And indeed I see no need for a separate article called Transliterating cuneiform languages. The contents of this article is better rewritten here. --JFK 15:21, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

makes sense; merge it here, and if parts grow over-long, branch them out again. dab (ᛏ) 13:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sign table

this article has been missing a table of the actual glyphs for ages; I took the upcoming Unicode 5.0 release as an opportunity for working on that. This is provisional, of course, the Unicode allocation may still change in details, but it is unlikely to see major changes still. In any case, the table is very preliminary. Any presentation of glyphs will need to distinguish Sumerian and Akkadian (and possibly Hittite) values. Ideally, of the order of 1,000 glyphs should be discussed. More realistically, of the order of 100 simple syllables (VC or CV) should be discussed first. This will be quite a piece of work, since the allocation of the Unicode glyphs is rather unsystematic and unscientific; rather guided by some well-known inventory number, they appear to pick one Sumerian phonetic value of the sign, and order strictly alphabetically (i.e. SH- is listed after SA- but before SI-...). My present attempt at a table aims at presenting the Akkadian values, but it is still both incomplete and unverified. For example, Akkadian ṭuis Sumerian GĺN (= NĺR =TÙN), but I have been unable to locate the glyph under any of these names. dab (ᛏ) 16:54, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cuneiform script in Unicode

Cuneiform script is added in Unicode 5.0, see http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode5.0.0/, so we can use cuneiform script in this article :-)

I'm working on it (see the glyph list), but I am waiting for a list mapping unicode codepoints to some dictionary. Guesswork from the glyph name or scanning the glyph table is too tedious. dab (ᛏ) 17:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What is the point of the Unicode syllabary table now?

What is the point of the Unicode syllabary table, when currently at least 99.9% of browser software running on typical computer configurations will be unable to display it?? (Does a Unicode-mapped cuneiform font even exist right now? Nothing at this article or Unicode cuneiform indicates that one does.) Little GIFs or PNGs would be more useful right now. AnonMoos 00:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

don't worry, there will be fonts (m:Eventualism). In the meantime, you are most welcome to upload the 900 required PNGs :) dab (ᛏ) 23:55, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Some have been uploaded at commons:User:Enlil2/gallery. PNGs would be of use to most, while Unicode seems to be of use to none, right at the moment... Would taking screenshots of pages of the Everson proposal PDF file and chopping them up be a copyright violation? AnonMoos 15:45, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
You could just use a font. -- Evertype·✆ 18:42, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
the entire point is that there is no font yet. Sure, there are legacy "ASCII" (as Borger calls them) fonts, but I haven't seen a single concordance mapping any of these to the recent Unicode encoding. Also, could you tell us what was your source for the glyph shapes as they appear in this proposal[7]? dab (ᛏ) 20:17, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't know, you could ask Evertype (talk • contribs). If you add images, do not remove the unicode characters however. Ideally, there should be at least two glyphs for every entry, one archaic Sumerian (2500 BC) and one Assyrian (1500 BC). I think the glyphs in the proposal are rather archaic, and some seem very strange to me, they should ideally be checked against Borger (2003). There should also be a check of Borger (2003) against Borger (1981), because he overthrew his numbering scheme completely, and we must be careful the two don't get mixed up. I am working at a font for Akkadian/Hittite orthography, i.e. there will be of the order of 400 signs (about half of the Unicode codepoints will remain unused), and the glyphs will look very different from those in the proposal. I've done about 25% of this, and it will still be a couple of weeks before I can present this font for download. dab (ᛏ) 17:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


here is a concordance mapping Borger (2003) numbers to Unicode codepoints. I was confused by this before I realised Borger introduced a completely new scheme. This could be used to add an additional column to the table at Unicode cuneiform. My focus is Assyrian and Hittite, so that if I keep working on this list, Sumerian signs not continued in Akkadian will probably remain sadly neglected. dab (ᛏ) 20:25, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

How is this word pronounced? I have heard several versions but I think it's something like this ku ni ɪ fɔ(ɹ)m. Any feedback would be nice.Cameron Nedland 14:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[8] something like this, yes. dab (𒁳) 20:22, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks.Cameron Nedland 19:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Progress on cuneiform sign images

Commons user Mstudt is now uploading Cuneiform sign PNG images (the first 100 have been uploaded... AnonMoos 14:57, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

that's excellent. She seems to be naming the files after their Borger (2003) number, i.e. the same I am ordering List of cuneiform signs by. Note commons:Image:B029ellst.png where I added sign identification, and which I am linking from list of cuneiform signs now. The same should be done with the other signs. That's 100 out of 907 so far, I hope she keeps going... dab (𒁳) 19:35, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
she keeps on going! I uploaded 400 added by necessary variants so far. I hope, all 907 will be uploaded till the end of the week. We made fine TrueType fonts of our signs: NeoAssyrian1,2,3,4,5,6,xxl.ttf. We are writing cuneiform very fast. We saved over 9.000 transliterations as autotexts for MSWord. Working with them is much faster than looking for the right Unicode encoding for every single glyph ...
We are working on a Neo-Assyrian Sign list for wikipeda with all sumerian and akkadian transliterations, which can be used in addition to list of cuneiform signs. Mstudt 00:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
wouldn't it make sense to merge this list with the existing one? dab (𒁳) 14:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thanks for your proposal - I think you are quite right: one cuneiform sign list is enough! I will keep on uploading the PNG-signs including all variants (I think, they should get a place in the list, too). As to the sumerian transliterations - it is better to leave the list as you worked it out; the complete 9000 transliterations are an essential part of our Handbuch Assur and we have to avoid copyright problems. All transliterations, which are combined of more than one cuneiform sign, would be missing anyway. As to the table: I think it would be better, if the background is white, so that the cuneiform signs merge better. I did this in my list by: "Prettytable|background-color: #FFFFFF;". And I would like to adjust the heigth of some signs, so that all wedges, if possible, are of the same size.Mstudt 15:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
well, more transliterations can be added, I did a sample of that at wikt:𒀸, but that's a lot of work. I don't think there is a copyright problem, otherwise, how can you defend your 9,000 transliterations wrt those of Borger? Or, put differently, when stating that AŠ has a reading of salugub in MSL 13 191 227, whose copyright am I violating, yours or Borger's? In any case, feel free to add additional rows to the tables for sign variants; I restricted myself to listing the 907 main entries of Borger, but that may of course be extended. I suppose detailed treatment of any sign (other than the likes of URU or LUGAL) should go to wiktionary. dab (𒁳) 16:28, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
After a long discussion with Dr. Ellermeier, who is the owner of the copyright of our cuneiform signs, we decided to withdraw our signs. We would have liked to upload the signs not to be altered and for non-commercial use. But since that is not possible, we had to put a deletion request at Wikimedia Commons. We are very sorry, but you will have to delete the signs from your list of cuneiform signs. The signs and fonts are available at Selbstverlag Dr. Friedrich Ellermeier, Hardegsen bei Göttingen. As to the 9000 transliterations: they are the result of the cooperation for years between R. Borger and F. Ellermeier. They form the BCE-System (Borger/Civil/Ellermeier). Mstudt 10:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
that's sad. now we are stuck with 470 out of 900 glyphs. I'll see if I can generate pngs from my font, but that will be Old Assyrian. dab (𒁳) 16:31, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
To dab: on behalf of the second half of the neoassyrian PNGs: you got mail! Greetings from bookworm to bookworm. Mstudt 17:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thank you, found it & replied. dab (𒁳) 20:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
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