Talk:Cumbria

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Revision as of 14:41, 16 May 2006

To-do list for Cumbria:
edit - history - watch - refresh 

Summary history section with su-page at History of Cumbria Physical geography section, including geology, landscape, ecology and climate, with possible sub-page at Geology of Cumbria Tourism section, and possibly industry and culture sections as well, with sub-pages if neccesary Populate Category:Natives of Cumbria and remove the people from the places of intrest section - they don't mix very well! Turn the settlements section into a summary of the main towns and cities; the list goes on List of places in Cumbria Add icons to the places of interes list using Template:EngPlacesKey Populate Category:Villages in Cumbria Add photos to the Cumbria images gallery

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For information, the suppression of revert of today (about "ethnicity" statistics) are presently subject of debate on the French-speaking Village pump fr:Wikipedia:Le Bistro. Refer there if you want to understand what happened. --French Tourist 18:06, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Celtic Cumbria? 2 towns 3 Cumbria vs Cumberland 4 CFD

[edit] Celtic Cumbria?

"Cumbria remains one of the most Celtic areas of England." -- what does this mean?

LuiKhuntek 06:11, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Celtic culture is very prominant in Cumbria where as in other parts of England it is not so. Peculiar Cumbrian traditions such as Cumbrian wrestling and cheese rolling, in addition to Cumbric counting, coupled with visible elements of Celtic crosses and passed down legends in mythology and fable also make this so. Enzedbrit 02:20, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I see someone has removed the statement about Cumbria remaining Celtic. That Cumbria acknowledges a Celtic heritage from festival to sport and tradition is a strong indicator of thisEnzedbrit 20:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

And somebody else removed my talk page explanation of the removal. Cumbria is not Celtic, all the 'peculiar Celtic tradition' aren't Celtic at all or to be found all over England. THis statement is highly POV and unsubstantiated.GordyB 21:18, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

perhaps there can be a way of including the information without making it so controversial? Along the lines of "some of cumbria's sport and mythological heritage bear a noticeable resemblence to celtic traditions, and may well have developed out of Cumbria's celtic past." And then detail them after that. Perhaps at the end of that section you could mentions that "a number of other counties in England which are not considered so noticeably celtic also have similar festival and sport traditions which suggests the origins of these markers of rural British culture may be more complex than being simply either Celtic or Anglo Saxon".Ammi 13:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

That's very nobel Ammi and I see what you're trying to do, but that is actually watering down a truth. These things ARE Celtic, HAVE remained from the Celtic past. That Cumbria is not in Scotland or Wales doesn't mean that such things must be brought into question. All of Britain has a Celtic heritage but in Cumbria, they have remained stronger due to a lesser influence from subsequent invasions of Britain. It is also not to the detriment of Cumbria or the Celtic countries that all of England retains a Celtic heritage. If anything, this heritage should be better identified. I have backed up my POV with minor snippets of actuality, and no doubt other contributors will do the same. Enzedbrit 20:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy where there is a disagreement about the veracity of a statement is to try and produce a neutral point of view based on a balence between the two opinions. There are obviously those here who do not believe that those traditions in Cumbria are necessarily different enough from, for example, anglo-saxon traditions, or viking, for it to merit them being accredited to the nations Celtic past. If they are able to provide published statements that support their theory that eg. the cumberland/westmorland method of wrestling is not sufficiently uniquely celtic in style for it to be accredited to Cumbria's (or indeed Britain's) celtic history, (as you have offered to provide published evidence for the idea that they do come from a Celtic origin) then they would be justified in wanting both perspectives to be applied to the argument. It is in no way noble it is simply Wikipedia policy, as there are bound to be those who hold a differing opinion, I recommend that we supply sources where we can for each perspective which then can be cited within the article. This is the next step to improving the quality of the article to a high standard, which is, after all, what we are all aiming for. A peer review on this article at the present would most likely say that it cites too few sources and does not contain a balence of multiple points of view, so it is where we should be trying to head anyway.

You've done well so far on providing evidence to back up the suggestion that these cultural traditions are Celtic (the traces of cumbric in the cumbrian dialect, the existance of Rheged as the Celtic kingdom in England that lasted the longest against viking incursion, and the name given to the area by the welsh). BUT, there are those that would argue that the influx of Norwegian and Danish Vikings and the spread of Anglo-Saxon culture means that while it may have survived as a celtic nation for the longest (alongside cornwall), this does not mean that it has the strongest celtic tradition surviving today out of all the English counties. The length of time doesn't always balence well with the intensity of the cultural revolution of the county. Do you have any suggestions as to where you could find sources for your statements to continue to strengthen your argument? Ammi 17:29, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

You also keep inserting 'Cumbria is one of the most Celtic areas of England' as if this was a fact. It is an opinion and one that is not sourced i.e. exactly who considers Cumbria to be Celtic. Even Celtic nationalist groups very rarely make this claim. Try putting something less POV.GordyB 22:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I also removed the reference to sheep count, although this is Celtic, it is not a remnant of the Cumbric language. It derives from a Welsh migration to the North of England in IIRC the 14 th century. It is not unique to Cumbria (it was found all across the North and North Midlands), to my knowledge it is virtually extinct even amongst farmers.

Cumbrian and Westmoralnd wresting, again, is this really Celtic? Greeks wrestle, Romans wrestle - don't you think Anglo-Saxons and Norwegans wrestled as well. This needs to be substantiated as Celtic before being put in the same section.

I've left the reference to Celtic words in Cumbrian dialect for now. The separate article on Cumbrian dialect does not mention a Celtic influence and I do not know any Cumbrian words that did come from Cumbric. This needs to be substantiated or I will remove it. GordyB 22:57, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[1] This source says that whilst Cornish wrestling is Celtic, Cumberland and Westmorland wrestling is probably of Viking origin, there is also Lancashire wrestling - are they Celtic as well?GordyB 23:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

a case study: cumberland/westmorland wrestling:

^[1] this source classes Cumberland/Westmorland wrestling as a style also known as North Country or Scottish Backhold wrestling. It also states that it "evolved from Norse backhold wrestling" as does this one: ^[2] however it also states that "there has been no concrete evidence to support this theory".

However the Fédération International des Luttes Celtique ^[3] (international celtic wrestling federation) classes Cumberland/Westmorland wrestling as Celtic, and this source ^[4] states that backholding is "essentially celtic". A third site ^[5] classes scottish/cumberland backhold along with Cornish and Gouren (Brittany) styles, all under the same celtic heading.

It would seem that there is a fairly balenced argument for both, and I'm certain we will find the same with other aspects of cumbrian culture. (including the sheep counting method. I found a source that demonstrates how it would be impossible for it to have developed out of welsh as the higher numbers are entirely different from either modern or Old Welsh but are similar to Cumbric and brythonic styles. However their server is down so I cannot cite it until it is repaired. Nevertheless, it demonstrates that its origin is a matter of debate). It is important that both views are expressed on this page. -Ammi 15:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

This is better though I'd say with sheep count that it is too widespread to be Cumbric unless it survived all across the North and Morth Midlands. One site I read said that it was found in Derbyshire.GordyB 15:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, lets leave sheep counting until someone's had a chance to examine the sources properly. I too have read some that say it has spread as far south as shropshire (though being close to the Welsh border that's not wholly surprising), but I'll do my best now to expand the wrestling section of the culture of cumbria. Ammi 15:41, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I think there is more than enough for a decent stub for Cumbrian wrestling as its own article.GordyB 16:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

makes sense, have started here. Cumberland and Westmorland wrestling but have not had the time to do any more than cut and paste, will expand later. Ammi 18:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I've moved a cut down version to the sports section and wikified the main article.GordyB 18:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

thanks for that. Ammi 15:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed references to the Cumbric influence on Cumbrian dialect. No justification for this was given and the Cumbrian dialect article states that most dialect words are of Norse origin.GordyB 20:52, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] towns

Please give some info on towns, e.g., what are the largest ones and if there are rail connections.

Celtic or Norse Cumbria? I'm surprised to see it listed as one of the most celtic areas of England. I just saw the BBC series Blood of the Vikings and it said penrith, cumbria, had some of the highest amounts of norwegian viking blood in Britian. Just looked at it on the map and although im no expert id say names like ulverston and millnthorpe, thursby, possibly Ullswater, threllkeld are very norse (thor). Also on the program it said some of the local dialect used norse words.....

so... whats going on here?

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cumbria" Categories: To do | To do, priority undefined

Celtic is not a 'blood' categorisation. There are lots of Viking names in Cumbria as there are Celtic names. One does not detract from the other. Enzedbrit 01:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cumbria vs Cumberland

There seem to be many references to "Cumbrian" things which sound rather like they should be attributed to Cumberland.

Examples include:

• Cumberland Wrestling not Cumbrian Wrestling
• Cumberland Dialect not Cumbrian Dialect

Cumbria is a relatively new county and references to old traditions which have originally been placed as Cumberland don't automatically become Cumbrian! A Cumberland Sausage is still a Cumberland Sausage regardless of whether the county is Cumbria or not. I would suggest a few changes need to be made to correct these Cumbria / Cumberland references. --Neilajh 22:51, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Good point. Any such references I come across I'll make a point of changing them. Cumberland still exists, but the local authorities would have us believe otherwise. Arcturus 14:53, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Hang on a minute, the term 'Cumbrian' was used to denote people or things from Cumberland long before the new administrative county of Cumbria was formed in 1974. A Cumberland Sausage was and is a Cumberland Sausage, but was and is eaten by Cumbrians! Sir Andrew de Harcla 11:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Plus the cumberland dialect was also spoken in westmoreland. Ammi 16:00, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The sausage is Cumberland, the dialect is Cumbrian, the wrestling is Cumberland & Westmoreland. Now I'll hoy this back to you. Charles Matthews 09:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Its Westmorland not Westmoreland Penrithguy 18:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I've got an old history of 'Cumberland & Westmoreland' from the late 1700s/ early 1800s. So though common usage now is 'Westmorland', 'Westmoreland' is acceptable, just:-). Anyway, Westmorland's a nasty place, seeing its so far down south and full of large puddles I hear. Folk should come to Carlisle for their holidays . . .:-) (now that certainly is a joke!) Sir Andrew de Harcla 14:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CFD

--Mais oui! 09:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)