Talk:Culture of New Zealand

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[edit] Cultural cringe

I have removed the entire section on New Zealand cultural cringe. It is a real concept, and something should be written on it, but, for instance, there is not and has never been any desperation to see sheep shearing recognized as a sport or art from, and adulation is clearly not poured upon "any visiting celebrity". The section I removed obviously had a slightly comedic tone, but was also essentially fictional and misleading. There are arguably other parts to this article that have the same problems, and certainly parts of it are written in very vague, general terms, but I will leave it to someone else to either improve or remove such problems.

[edit] Of Course there is a NZ Culture

Is it just me or is this section bizarre? I'm sure there are a few ignorant souls out there who can't tell the difference between NZ and England but do we really have to take their claim so seriously? I'd advocate re-framing it somehow, maybe as a dispute about what constitutes NZ culture, and with a link to a general page on culture as a concept. NZ forever 02:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A few notes on this article

Could someone explain what the song by The Knobz is about, or maybe write an article about it? I can kind of guess what the song was about and why it is relevant, but the article doesn't explain.

I'm not sure how much of the song can be quoted under copyright rules. The memorable part goes something like "I could buzz around like a beehive boy, but I'd like to see you do my job, up front with the Knobz" where beehive boy means politician.

I have removed:

Perhaps one of the less obvious New Zealand cultural attitudes is the
notion that one should be judged by ones abilities and works rather than :ones status or class. Although a class structure does exist in New :Zealand society, there is often a strong reaction, such as the Tall Poppy Syndrome, if high class status is openly flaunted in public. Some :observers claim that New Zealanders are in denial about their culture,
others say that this is merely introspection and consideration for others.
  • What is "Tall Poppy Syndrome"?
Anyone who stands out from (or above) the crowd is *cut down to size*
  • If New Zealand has eliminated classism, I will be both astonished and elated, and I will move there immediately. The whole paragraph, especially the first sentence, suffers from an abundance of vagueness.

"Kiwi" is always capitalized in the section on the word (which maybe deserves it's own article distinct from the bird?). I hesitate to change it because I don't know if New Zealanders always or sometimes capitalize it.

We are Kiwis, the national symbol is the kiwi

I have also removed:

With necessity often being the mother of invention and New Zealanders :often being faced with having to make do with what was available, they
have often produced unique solutions to common everyday problems.  :Many of these inventions are unique to New Zealand and are now known :as Kiwiana.
  • This isn't encyclopedic and is so vague it probably applies to any culture throughout the world.

Tokerboy 03:18 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

A general copyedit and polish. I've tried not to change the sense of the article (I'm Australian and not qualified to write about NZ culture.) Aside from minor things, I replaced

Small enclaves of these early immigrant cultures do exist, though these groups tend to maintain the unique aspects of their immigrant heritage over and above the dominant British colonial culture and have had little impact on it.

with

Small enclaves of these early immigrant cultures remain as islands of unique heritage in a sea of British colonial culture.

Please change back if this isn't the original meaning. Also replaced:

This has lead to a friendly, but competitive, cultural rivalry. Though in the face of adversity members of both cultures act co-operatively, despite this rivalry. Part of this rivalry may be due to Australia originally being a penal colony, while New Zealand was settled voluntarily by colonists who paid for their own passage

with a different para, which (I think) speaks for itself. On the voluntary settlement/penal colony matter, I question this. I'm not sure of the exact figure, but at a guess, convicts made up maybe 5% of Australia's immigrants, probably less. The cultural significance of the convict heritage, of course, is not a matter of mere percentages. Still, I think too much is often made of it. Now that's an Australian perspective: it may well be that Kiwis see it as more important than Australians do, in which case it should certainly go back in again. Tannin

[edit] More comments

This was my first cut at this topic and merely my own thought, after about 2 days of joining up! I believe that a lot more can be said about it. Changes made above do not seem to have substantially changed the overall meaning and intent of the article, while considerably tightening it.

  • The one change that I am concerned about is the reversion of Kiwi bird to Kiwi, which is a disambiguation page. Correct me if I am wrong but according to policy an article about the kiwi (bird) is needed here, so the link should point directly there, even though the article does not exist, rather than the disambiguation page.

kiwiinapanic 11:56 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)

Yes. However, the thought of titling an article about the kiwi Kiwi bird fills me with dismay. I think I'd rather say "koala bear" or "moo cow" than "kiwi bird". No matter, I'm working my way through the ratite family already. I'll fix that tonight, with a stub at least. Tannin

[edit] Case for Disambiguation of 'Kiwi'

Hi! I'm relatively new here, been getting acquainted by attacking the Wikipedia:Disambiguation_pages_with_links list. "Kiwi" looked like a straightforward one, but it seems there's no disambiguation page as such -- just the entry on the bird, kiwi, with links to New Zealand and kiwifruit at the top? And it's been debated before? I don't want to step on toes if it's still an open question, but it looks like Kiwi should read:

Kiwi can refer to:

"Kiwi bird" does sound dreadful, but shouldn't it at least be at Kiwi (bird), in keeping with other disambiguation titles (and allowing piped links)? Or am I missing a point here? -- Catherine, trying to be bold, but not overbold...  :)

I don't think it pays to be too inflexible in these things. There is indeed a case for a disambiguation page, but an even better one for not having a disambiguation page.
  1. The entry on the bird has to be at Kiwi because "Kiwi bird" is simply too infantile an expression to tolerate.
  2. The alternative meanings are subsiduary and derived fromm the original meaning, not true alternatives.
  3. The short disambiguation section at the top does not intrude on the article as a whole.
  4. A disambiguation page would serve no purpose that is not already taken care of by the current arrangement.
  5. There are other short disambiguation sections (as opposed to pure disambiguation pages) dotted about here and there, and have been for ages. Sometimes it just makes more sense to do it that way.
  6. By leaving it at kiwi we avoid having to bother with piped links or anything else, just type [[kiwi]].
Tannin 06:37 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)
PS. I must remember to get back and finish the entry! It's onlt two-thirds done.

Fair enough -- thank you for clarifying. So if I continue disambiguating links -- should links to Kiwis as a people go to "New Zealand" or "Culture of New Zealand"? (Or something else I've missed?)

I'm greatly enjoying myself here -- and I think the kiwi article looks great! -- Catherine 16:47 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Article Too Negative?

Maybe it's just a case of "Cultural Cringe" but it seems to me that every one of the points mentioned in the Attitudes section portrays New Zealanders in a negative light. Comments like "the desperate assertion that sheep shearing is a valid sport or maybe art form" are not exactly neutral.

Having said that I do agree with a lot of what is said, and never having left New Zealand, I am unaware of international opinions.

Do others, kiwi or not, agree that this section is overly negative?

--AaronCaskey 14:16, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hmm. It's not so much negative, but that every statement has a deliberate 'counter-balancing' statement. - (Someone outside NZ)

I probably would have held similar sentiments before I left New Zealand myself. Now that I'm based overseas, I'm able to view NZ culture from a more balanced perspective, including its many negative aspects. I have a deep connection to the land of my birth, but I also have many valid criticisms of the nation and the society built on top of it - none of which I was able to voice while still in the country. - (The NZ-born, Australian based contributer of some of the more cynical passages in this page)

[edit] Close to the pole?

Yes, New Zealand is close to the South Pole, compared to say Indonesia, but a quick look at http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/debnjohn/NZandEurope.jpg will show that it's nowhere as close as you might think. The prob is not Mercator projection, but the fact that in examples like http://graphicmaps.com/webimage/world/flata.htm almost 2/3rds of the image is above the equator, and only 1/3 below.

[edit] Myth-making?

While I tip my hat to the people who have written this article, I do question the accuracy of it. I would argue that this article cites a number of elements that may have been true in the 1950s and 60s, but are fairly rare these days as to make them erroneous to cite as indicative of contemporary Kiwi culture as shared by many.

Now, if the article is trying to point out unique elements of Kiwi culture, then fine. But it appears to me that it is trying to describe the 'Culture of New Zealand' (the title) and in that case suffers from a lack of objectivity, research, and evidence that a Wikipedia article should aspire to have.

Some things that I would question:

  • "Maori culture is increasingly being identified with New Zealand ..." - Compared to when? Maori culture has always been identified with New Zealand.
  • "... there is a degree of inverse snobbery known as the 'Tall Poppy Syndrome', in which people who are seen as (over) ambitious and having ideas above their station are cut down to size" - This is an oft-quoted idea, but based on what? Based on the celebrated successes of Peter Jackson that have 4 times closed the centre of Wellington, and Adam Adamson recently? Based on the pride most New Zealanders have over our tall poppies in fashion, wine, food, and other areas of culture? I would argue the inverse, that Kiwis readily celebrate and support the people who succeed.
  • "In contrast to the above, many people are apathetic about local government issues, with turnout as low as 10% for local body election in 2004. Turnout for non-compulsory Central Government elections is normally above 80%." - I'd like to see references for these statistics before I believe them.
  • "For this reason many of New Zealand's best artists go overseas to further their careers, especially to Australia, but also to Europe or America." - Which field of arts? Certainly musicians often base themselves overseas, but as far as gallery-type art is concerned New Zealand's best artists still live here. This wasn't the case 30 or more years ago, though.

Where is it mentioned that you can stop in nearly any small town in New Zealand and find at least one place that will serve fantastic food and coffee? This seems significant, and fairly unique when comparing with the culture of the UK, the predominant settlers of NZ. This side of New Zealand has been ignored in favour of repeating vague cliches of rural NZ.

[edit] Suggestions

  • I'd suggest the article begins with historical perspectives on the Culture of New Zealand, how it has changed over the decades with regard to the forces that have provoked the changes. This will bring it up to the contemporary perspectives on the Culture of New Zealand, and will help clarify the old and now rare from the new and often-unwritten.
  • That some of the commonly recognised elements that are dubiously correct about New Zealanders are moved to a section called 'stereotypes'.
  • That there is greater acknowledgement of the urban cultures of New Zealand
  • That the Godzone section be augmented with one for Aotearoa (no one I know under 50 calls it Godzone except as a joke, but even LiveJournal calls it Aotearoa!) or maybe that we have a section on multicultural/cross cultural influences eg hangi. It doesn't really reflect the NZ I know yet - still sounds a bit like Australia.

218.101.75.206 05:08, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

It is interesting that "God's Own Country" was popularised by Premier Seddon. He was from Eccleston, Lancashire and the inhabitants there use the same phrase.


Have to agree, this article really is rubbish! There is just too much to disagree with here. It is clearly all dubious opinion and conjecture, not encyclopedic contentet at all. Boooooo!

Part of the problem is that we seem to be confusing popular self image with verified facts. Maybe it should reflect that. NZ forever 02:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NZ Dollar

The New Zealand dollar is often called the Kiwi dollar (or just the Kiwi) and the bird's image appears on both the 20 cent and one dollar coins. The 20 cent coin no longer has the kiwi on it (Has not for years) Brian | (Talk) 23:48, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

True, in December 1990, a new design came out with a 'pukaki' design (similar to a tiki) - but both the old kiwi 20 cent piece and the pre-1967 two-shilling coin are legal, and common. Snori
And now they're not common and, starting next month, not legal either. --Dom 12:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Zealand Food

I think The section I wrote may have a few contentious assertions in it. I would have been a little more conservative, but I wanted to stimulate some edit reaction.JonathanG

You forgot Sizzlers sausages mate!! I'd saw off my left arm for a pack of the double-cheese ones...

[edit] Original Research

Added the tag, since it seems to be that most of the information seems to be unverifiable and editoralized. Don't get me wrong, its well written. I am just not sure how encyclopedic it is. Roodog2k 19:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

 I agree. I know it just seems like common sense to some of us but it reads like unverified assertion. Sources could include Jock Philips' book on masculine culture, and Michael King's Penguin history has a  bit of stuff on culture too. Even a few websites could help.

218.101.79.26 02:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vegemite?

Why is Vegemite listed under Kiwiana, with a (similar to Marmite) at the end in parenthesis? Shouldnt it be the other way around? Vegemite is Australian, Marmite is Kiwi.

I have wondered the same thing; however I was not 100% sure Brian | (Talk) 08:12, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Marmite is British, not Kiwi (although the version manufactured in NZ is made to a different recipe than the original - see the article for details). Our current text seems fine to me. -- Avenue 09:58, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I would still think Marmite is more popular than Vegemite Brian | (Talk) 10:08, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Funny, I would have thought the opposite. No doubt perceptions vary depending on what you use. Googling hasn't helped me much - the only thing I can find is this paper, saying that "... in New Zealand, where it [Vegemite] ... occupies a market share approximately equal to that of Marmite." -- Avenue 11:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, but isn't the point that the modified variant of Marmite is unique to New Zealand? Not to mention the fact that Marmite is a Sanitarium product (as opposed to Vegemite, which is Kraft). --Dom 12:17, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Y'all have all got it wrong

NOTE -It's clearly proven that the Wright Brothers flew before that Richard Pearse guy. -New Zealand is renown for its snobbery in claiming that they invented everything, from nuclear physics to the ballpoint pen! New Zealand has invented useless crap like crumpet machines and they claim that anything "even minutely associated with New Zealand" is a "Kiwi" idea. -I was absolutely shocked after the launch of the A380 Superjumbo in 2005. The European scientists, engineers and manufacturers had put so much effort into making the aircraft. Then along comes the snobbish New Zealanders, who claim that (a) they invented flying and (b) that NZ should deserve credit for the A380 as it used "NZ aluminum in the wings"! -Marmite is not from New Zealand, it's from Great Britain. Vegemite is from Australia. -As an intelligent Asian student in New Zealand, I had received resentment and hatred amongst the anti-intellectuals in New Zealand. It's true; New Zealand doesn't value intelligence like the United States [where I live now for college at UCLA]. -The "Tall Poppy Syndrome" is also prevalent in economic circles. Wealthy people who've deserved their money for their hard work are frowned upon in New Zealand. To combat this, the government of New Zealand has an overly generous welfare system, in order to remove even small amounts of economic inequality. -New Zealanders have an "everything's gonna be alright attitude" and the country is useless in diplomatic circles, considering it contributes in a negligible effort in maintaining World Peace. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 222.155.229.72 (talk • contribs).

The foregoing comments are predominatly opinions. Wikipedia uses facts. These talk pages are used to determine the facts rather than put forward opinions. If you have doubts about that factual basis of the content of Wikipedia please make these known or edit the article in question. Alan Liefting 21:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too PC???

"General Bernard Freyberg, famously stated that all his troops wanted for happiness was the three Fs - Feeding, Fighting and "procreation"."

Did he actually say 'procreation'? If he said 'fucking', this should be written here. (Wikipedia is not censored). MadMaxDog 07:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] oh dear

this article is truely terrible

Care to more specific about what what is wrong and how it could be improved. - SimonLyall 12:43, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Close to the Pole?

Worth mentioning that New Zealand is just a far away from the South Pole as Spain is from the North Pole... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Joros (talk • contribs) 22:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] vagueness

"British and Irish culture in New Zealand has been significantly influenced by Māori and other Polynesians."

How, exactly? This is a claim that gets made a lot and I have yet to hear of a credible example. In general this page is vague and tends to trade in stereotypes rather than facts or even examples. It's also fairly shocking that there is no section on Maori culture. I know it has its own page, but surely Maori culture is part of New Zealand culture, even if it's not part of the dominant culture? At some point I will do an overhaul of the page... possibly it will involve rewriting the whole damn thing. And kiwiana is going to get its own page so that the list doesn't clog this one up too much. Sigh... this is what comes of browsing Wikipedia when you're tired. --Helenalex 06:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] cuisine

"Ironically it is not generally understood in New Zealand that it has a unique food culture."

Well, call me stupid, but I don't understand that New Zealand has a unique food culture. The only distinct thing the article puts forward is that we apparently use more butter than British people do and that we have a few local specialities. This does not constitute a unique food culture. British people would probably use more butter if it was cheaper (and these days health probably comes into it, but it does here too), and having unique ingredients does not mean we have a unique food culture; it's just silly to say that we're different from the Poms because they don't eat Bluff oysters - when would they get the chance? How many NZers can really afford to eat Bluff oysters anyway?

If someone can make the case for NZ actually having a distinct food culture, please do so. Otherwise, I will rewrite (and mostly delete) the section. I don't think not having a distinct food culture is anything to be ashamed of. Most national cuisines developed before cheap long distance travel, when people were forced to use local ingredients and hadn't recently come from anywhere else. Ours is a distinct variety of an Anglo food culture we share with the British, the Irish, Australians and to a lesser extent North Americans, but not a distinct food culture, at least in my opinion. Again, if you disagree, please make your case! --Helenalex 01:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of iconic NZers

I'm inclined to remove this as a full list of iconic NZers would be way to long, and everyone has differing opinions as to who is and isn't iconic. I think it's much more useful to use them as examples of particular NZ traits or stereotypes. This shows why they are iconic and is thus much more informative. --Helenalex 09:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reorganisation

In working on this it has occurred to me that the page is primarily about Pakeha culture. Since I don't think there is one NZ culture but several, I propose several things:

1) Moving the bulk of this page to Pakeha culture

2) Renaming this page Cultures of New Zealand (plural)

3) On this page giving brief summaries of Maori, Pakeha and other NZ cultures (and maybe subcultures) and how they interact with each other, and possibly an overview of the arts in NZ, since there is no page on that and it is a bit neglected on this page. Although most arts are of European origin, there are enough successful non-Pakeha artists, writers, dancers etc for the 'high arts' to be on this page rather than the Pakeha culture page.

Since this is a very major change I will give about a week for suggestions, objections etc before I do anything along these lines. --Helenalex 22:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I think to put NZers in a box is a hard thing to do, making those boxes smaller won't help (so breaking into (pakeha, maori, etc etc). So I would not support splitting the article up yet (maybe if it gets larger). However I think the article has lots of POV statements, and is very poorly referenced. Some of it is very new to me, and I've lived here my entire life. Is there an article on another countries culture that we can use as an example, like an FA article? - Shudda talk 03:42, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Defining NZ culture(s) is difficult, but I think that having lots of small boxes is less misleading than one big box which supposedly is about everyone but is actually only about Pakeha. Apart from the POV and general crappiness of much of the article, I have two major concerns, which are 1) length and 2) making sure it doesn't say 'New Zealand culture' 'New Zealanders' etc when it really means Pakeha. Shifting specifically Pakeha culture to its own page would seem to solve both problems. If we keep Pakeha culture on this page, then surely everything on the Maori culture page should be here as well, and that would make this page very long. Basically my original goal here was to get rid of or fix all the POV and vague stuff, and I think confusing Pakeha with NZ in general is a major part of that. --Helenalex 04:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I believe that an article can be written on "New Zealand culture". It may look very different to the one that exists now though. I think if all the POV material is removed, and that article starts talking in facts, then it will give us a much better idea about splitting the article up. However at the moment it's not such a good idea. For example culture as it relates to sport and language are not easy to split up. Is New Zealand English and New Zealand Sign Language to go in the Pakeha or Maori articles? What about food? Recreation? Traditions and holidays? Religion? There are certainly differences between the many ethnic groups in New Zealand, however there are lots of things that they have in common. I say its not appropriate to split the article up in its current form. - Shudda talk 05:03, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
You are right Helenalex, this article is crappy and does assume that Pākehā culture is the default. It reads like a jumble of half-baked ideas and worn-out stereotypes and has no overall cohesion. Little mention of other cultures - for instance Māori culture mostly mentioned in terms of how Pākehā react to it. So discussion is good in beginning the process of making a better article. And there is no denying that Māori culture (for one) is fundamentally different to Pākehā culture and it would be hard to cover them both in one article. (BTW you say 'most arts are of European origin' - really? perhaps that is just because Māori and Polynesian arts aren't appreciated for their depth and variety - not to mention the arts of all the other cultures in NZ). So, a good idea to take a long hard look at this article. Think quite a few will object to the term 'Pākehā culture' since a myth has taken hold that Pākehā is a derogatory word (which it ain't) Kahuroa 05:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The article does need work, please contribute ideas regarding its structure and what should actually be covered in an article like this. This is what I've come up with, but its almost certainly not comprehensive:

  • Main cultures of New Zealand
Maori
Pakeha
Others (maybe have them seperately?)
Interaction of cultures
  • Language
  • New Zealand English
  • Maori
  • New Zealand Sign Language
  • Non-official languages
  • Arts
  • Visual arts
  • Music
  • Performance arts
  • Film and Television
  • Sport and recreation
  • Rugby
  • Cricket
  • Netball
  • Soccer
  • Recreation
  • Food
  • Religion
  • Socio-economics (to replace Class in New Zealand)
  • National sterotypes
  • Male
  • Female
  • Iconic characters
  • Attitudes
  • History?

One problem with the article at the moment is that is has no structure, and seems very jumbled. We should consider some sort of format as above. - Shudda talk 05:51, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I like your format, Shudda. Most of the headings you've got can include everyone in NZ, not just Pakeha, except where specifically differentiated. I've added a couple of things into your list, the most important being brief summaries of Maori and Pakeha culture. I think the interaction section (currently 'the role of Maori culture') is important since a major part of 'NZ' culture is Pakeha appropriation of Maori culture. It should really talk about the Maori appropriation/adaptation of Pakeha culture as well. With the exception of rugby, I don't think individual sports need to be listed since they are generally only really important to the NZ culture when we win. I don't think our national identity is really tied up with cricket or netball, let alone soccer, in the way that it is with rugby. Other than that it looks like a great model and I will begin reorganising the page alone those lines.

The Pakeha culture page can wait until this one has been fixed, but I think it does need to be created as some point, partly because it is a culture and therefore should have its own page, and partly to stop the equation of Pakeha with NZ from creeping back. Some people will object to the use of 'Pakeha' but at least as many will object to 'NZ European culture', and the latter is just confusing.

My bad on the 'most arts are of European origin' claim. I suppose what I was trying to get across is that with the exception of the haka, Maori arts are done pretty much exclusively by Maori and so can be mostly dealt with on the Maori culture page (with a summary here, of course), whereas most European originated arts are practicsed by all races and so should be dealt with in detail here rather than on the Pakeha culture page. --Helenalex 09:35, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I also prefer 'Class' to 'Socio-economics'. The 'classless society' was a major part of NZ's self image until recently, which makes class a cultural thing, whereas 'socio-economics' is more to do with raw facts, at least in my opinion. It also works better with Maori hierarchy - the position of chiefs can be described as a class thing but not really a socio-economic thing. --Helenalex 10:13, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for your response. A couple of things. If indeed New Zealand is a class-less society then having a section on class would be inappropriate right? This is why I proposed socio-economics instead, also I wanted to eliminate any conception we have a rigid class system or anything. With regards to art, I think we may want to do some research. I don't know enough to offer an educated opinion, but you may find the idea that there is maori art, and then pakeha art isn't true. The other-languages section is a good idea btw. For the sport, I put cricket in there because until the 20th century, it was probably the most important sport to NZers. After 1905 that changed, but because it is such an English sport, and New Zealand has had such strong links to the British Empire, for most of our history it's been very significant culturally. This is still seen today (there are books around on this). As for netball and soccer, they are the two biggest sports participation-wise, that is why I included them. They maybe don't need there own sections, but there is a need for discussion on their cultural importance. I think maybe we should try and construct a list of resources for writing this page eh, like books, magazine articles, web pages. Would help more editors to contribute. - Shudda talk 10:32, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
With regards to class, while we certainly don't have a rigid class system like some countries, we do have socio-economic divisions which can be referred to under the broad heading of class. More importantly, we did have a national myth concerning class. I don't think this is a huge deal either way, but I do think class works better.
Art- there certainly is Maori art! I'm not so sure about Pakeha art, which is why I wanted to deal with European-originated art on this page rather than on the Pakeha culture page. Also there are a lot of successful Maori practiioners of Euro arts (Hotere, Tuwhare etc), so painting, poetry, opera etc is New Zealand rather than Pakeha. On the other hand kowhaiwhai, tukutuku etc is definetely Maori.
Sport- fair point with cricket. In terms of the others, perhaps they should be covered in the participation section.
Resources - just off the top of my head, these are some useful books:
Jock Phillips, A Man's Country?
James Belich, Paradise Reforged and Making Peoples
Keith Sinclair, A Destiny Apart
Claudia Bell, Inventing New Zealand
Liu et al., New Zealand Identities: Destinations and Departures
www.teara.govt.nz might be useful as well. --Helenalex 22:18, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


Back to arts again: My bad on the 'most arts are of European origin' claim. I suppose what I was trying to get across is that with the exception of the haka, Maori arts are done pretty much exclusively by Maori and so can be mostly dealt with on the Maori culture page - is this true? I don't think so. And when you say arts in European arts and Māori arts do you mean the same thing? What about music? What about bands that include Māori and Pākehā and Pacific elements in their music - some of those bands (think Wellington) are VERY popular and influential and make a greater impact socially and financially and in terms of refining NZs image overseas than whatever it is you are calling European arts, I would have thought. If Opera and Orchestra are European arts, how many people actually participate in them compared to the number who partake in so-called Māori arts. Do Māori people never participate in European dance forms???? What about Ralph Hotere and other Māori painters? Aren't they actually using European art forms? McCahon etc with Māori words on his canvases. What about the WOW festival formerly associated with Nelson, now Wellington - another area where cross-cultural influences are very strong I would have thought - think use of Māori weaving forms and use of harakeke etc, not mention the strong Pacific elements in NZ culture generally. What about the English language in NZ? One of the minor struggles I have with plant and bird pages on this Wiki is convincing North Americans or European speakers of English that Māori names might possibly also be the common NZ names for many plants/animals that occur in NZ - that seems to be beyond the ken of many overseas English speakers - by which I am trying to illustrate that the influence is massive. What about architectural influences in both directions. Don't know if its valid to say only Māori do Māori arts in other words - unless you mean that European arts are high(er) arts or something? I guess what I am saying is that one of the distinctive things about the culture of New Zealand is the Māori and Pacific influence Kahuroa 23:59, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Thats so true about the plant and bird names! Cracks me up really. Like I said above, I'm not an expert on art, but I do think there is a massive amount of art in NZ that is highly influenced by many cultures, which is why is may be a mistake to split it all up. What about a section on "Traditional Maori art"? Or something, but even that may not work. - Shudda talk 05:16, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Kahuroa, I think you have misunderstood me. Saying that only Maori do Maori arts is not the same thing as saying Maori only do Maori arts. I've said several times (both here and in the article) that there are many, many Maori practioners of European arts - some of NZ's most successful painters, novelists, opera singers etc are Maori. When I call opera and orchestral music and so forth 'European' I don't mean that only Europeans do them, only that they originate in Europe. And mostly I have referred to them as 'European originated' to reflect this.

However, while Maori do clearly do European arts, there aren't huge numbers of non-Maori doing Maori arts, with the exception of the haka. I can't think of a single highly regarded non-Maori practitioner of Maori arts. Indeed there is quite a bit of resistance from some Maori to non Maori using Maori forms etc (not all Maori, but definetely some). I acknowledge on the page that a lot of Pakeha artists have been inspired by Maori art, but this is not the same thing as doing Maori art. When McCahon used Maori words and Walters used the koru in their work they were incorporating Maori motifs into Western modernist art. Again, this sort of thing is now quite controversial.

How much influence Maori culture has had on Pakeha culture, and whether this is good for Maori culture is an open question. One person's sensitive use of Maori forms is another person's cultural theft. Either way, most art forms which blend Maori and Pakeha forms will be on this page. --Helenalex 04:14, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, sure. Highly regarded non-Maori practitioner of Māori arts: Richard Nunns, reviving old Māori instruments in quite innovative ways and regarded with great respect I would have thought. [1]. He would probably be the foremost practitioner of many of the old instruments, and it would be interesting to ask someone like Richard whether he experiences resistance or gets called a cultural thief and how he deals with it, not that I think that kind of attitude should concern us too much here with this article. Kahuroa 05:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I stand corrected, but you must admit he is quite unusual. Anyway, in terms of the new stuff on the page, are there any problems? The Maori culture paragraph is a bit too brief, because its not something I'm any great expert on (as you've probably guessed) and the Maori culture page is a lot shorter than it needs to be so there wasn't much I could get from that. --Helenalex 06:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Not so sure that he is that unusual. I think he might be, but I don't know that he is. I can think of several areas where Pākehā people are experts... not in the performance arts per se, which I'm not that up on, but what about Anne Salmond in the area of the rituals of encounter - profoundly knowledgeable, I am one Māori who has profound respect for deeply knowledgeable Pākehā like Jane McRae, Richard Moyle, Claudia Orange, Jeny Curnow, Angela Ballara, Hazel Petrie, Mervyn McLean, Margaret Orbell, Agathe Thornton... at least as far as I know they are all Pākehā. Don't have time just now to consider properly an answer your question about the new content, it needs careful reading and consideration. Will get back to you, but two things come to mind on a quick reading - we should cite the law that forbade the use of Māori as a language of education, will look it up, and perhaps mention that it wasnt a simple situation, perhaps Māori at that time thought use of English was the way to go, and (altho this is inherited from the former state of the article), I wonder about the stress on appropriation of culture - is that the best way to approach this. Anyway, looks like good work... Kahuroa 11:22, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps 'borrowing' might be a better term than appropriation? It sounds more neutral. I do think there needs to be emphasis on borrowing/appropriation because it has had a big effect on both cultures. --Helenalex 23:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Appropriation is pretty loaded and confrontational. Anyway how verifiable and representative are the opinions or quotes. What are we talking about here - cultures in contact - it is absolutely inevitable and natural that they will borrow/take from each other. And where does 'appropriation' end - if I use a Sony cellphone am I appropriating Japanese culture, or Finnish if I use a Nokia - it's a bit silly eh. I saw Tirana's comment on your talk about taking this back to the citable, and I think that is a very valid point. Otherwise anyone can write 'some X object to Y as appropriation' - unless we can name and date it, forget it.
The act that I was going to look up is 1867 Native Schools Act. See [2] and [3].
Anyway I think you're doing well, and don't be unbold in getting rid of the uncited and the like Kahuroa 09:11, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
There is a big difference between using a product created by people from a particular culture and taking a cultural form and making your own version of it. For example, if I buy a tiki from a Maori craftsperson that's a whole different kettle of fish from manufacturing my own tikis and making money selling them to tourists. I'm not saying the latter is objectively bad, just that a) some people think it is and b) it's using something from someone else's culture and therefore borrowing. Most of the stuff I've written is citable, I've just been lazy about actually doing it. Will get on to that. --Helenalex 22:46, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Sweet as. I think borrowing is the better term, and ok my example was overstated but you know what I mean. Not to mention plastic hei-tiki Kahuroa 00:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Regionalism and parochialism

I feel that there are way too many generalizations being made here. I've been an Aucklander for the past 6 years and not once have I heard anyone from outside of Auckland being called backward. However I have noticed the negative stereotypes of Aucklanders promoted by those outside Auckland, particularly in the media (stuff.co.nz) reporting on Aucklanders' "exaggerated" reaction to a recent earthquake. Another thing is that the behaviour of JAFAs could be limited to certain suburbs of Auckland. I work near Ponsonby and Freeman's Bay, and have had numerous interactions with typically rude JAFAs in that area, but can't report having met any in my home suburbs of Onehunga and Papatoetoe. Maybe it's an attitude that comes with being at the upper end of the socio-economic scale, not with your location? Maybe this needs to be put under the "Stereotypes" section. Or alternatively more objective language used. Please comment on this and if there is enough agreement with these views I will edit the article.

Oh and isn't there a Northland edition of the New Zealand Herald as well? Juanitaatinauj 08:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

The present wording of the section in question includes the statement Aucklanders (sometimes known as Jafas — Just Another F***ing Aucklander) dismiss anywhere 'south of the Bombay Hills', as backward. No qualifications - therefore it suggests all Aucklanders always dismiss others as backward. Like Juanitaatinau, I have never heard this said either. Anyway, many Aucklanders actually come from other parts of the country anyway, so it doesn't make a lot of sense, unless what is meant is good-natured ribbing that someone took seriously? Some verifiable citations would be useful here. Kahuroa 11:02, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
While I wouldn't say that Aucklanders think people from other parts of the country are backward, many Aucklanders do seem to have a wilful ignorance of the rest of the country, and a belief that Auckland is the only place of importance in NZ. Yes, it is more good natured ribbing than anything else, but it does manifest itself in things like Aucklanders thinking that their stadium is 'national', the name of the NZ Herald etc. I'll reword the paragraph to reflect this, in the mean time could people have a look for sources for this section?
The equation of all Aucklanders with 'Ponsonby wankers' should go in the stereotypes section, I think, along with the stereotype that all South Islanders are farmers, everyone from Southland is a redneck etc. Perhaps a 'regional stereotypes' paragraph? --Helenalex 00:28, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Edited the 'Aucklanders dismiss...' bit to make it a little less dogmatic, since it is obviously only some individual's opinion rather than a verified fact and does not apply to all Aucklanders in any case. Re sources, maybe someone has done surveys or research which give some quotable info. I think it is stretching it a bit to suggest that the NZ Herald's name has anything to do with Aucklanders' attitude to the rest of NZ - it's more an accident of history and it's not like many Aucklanders had any say in that matter back in 1863 or whenever. Kahuroa 05:01, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Took out the reference to the name of the NZ Herald in the light of the name of Wellington's newspaper, the DOMINION Post which is hardly the newspaper of the whole Dominion of New Zealand, and is much more local than the Herald. Kahuroa 05:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Added an alternative view of this so-called rivalry. Given that there is no evidence to back up that this section says, this is an attempt to balance things. I really don't see that there is any evidence that Aucklanders have a down on the rest of the country - in reality people are too busy getting on with their lives to worry about other places - and I would suggest that that is just normal and natural. Kahuroa 19:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] are Kiwis the most non-religious people on earth?

The current article states "The 2006 census found that 2,136,258 New Zealanders identify as Christian." "A total of 1,297,104 New Zealanders have no religion". Is this the highest proportion of non-religious identification (outside of the ex-Soviet union) in a recent census return?

As an anecdote, my cousin was a bit gob-smacked (since she's a staunch Roman Catholic) when asked by a Kiwi immigration officer for evidence of a stable long term relationship with her (NZ) husband to be told "No, your marriage certificate or the fact you have a daughter is not evidence of a stable long term relationship. I need to see such paperwork as a joint bank account statement or Gym membership". ...Gaimhreadhan(kiwiexile at DMOZ) • 14:26, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I like your anecdote! Well, apparently 59% of China's population is non-religious, although I'm not sure whether that figure comes from their census. Looking through our Demographics_of_atheism article, I don't see any "western" countries (excluding ex-Warsaw Pact ones) with census figures showing a higher non-religious rate than NZ's (which was 32%, or 37% if inadequate responses are excluded), although some have poll results around that level. -- Avenue 15:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Mmmm, I was wanting to exclude the old SU because I figured the results would be skewed by both anti-communism and now being scared in some countries of being executed as an apostate muslim.
My thinking was a bit woolly - I guess we should have disregarded countries where people feel there are both dire consequences to being viewed as non-religious and where completers of surveys feel that their view may not be anonymised...Gaimhreadhan(kiwiexile at DMOZ) • 16:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
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