Talk:Cult suicide
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I removed this side comment from the article:
discuss prevailing belief systems in such cults
--cprompt 02:46, Jun 2, 2004 (UTC)
I think the essential disctinction should be made between religious groups that have encourage suicide such as Heaven's gate and People's temple and the groups that have not done that such as scientology. Andries 20:00, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
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[edit] Removal of some groups
I don't know why Unification Church is described in a paragraph here, while other groups which have ACTUALLY condoned or carried out suicide only get links. Same with Scientology.
Article should be rewritten to distinguish between:
- groups that actively plan for or commit suicide; and,
- groups suspected by the general public or by cult opponents
Especially when the group in question (like UC) is on record as OPPOSING suicide. For example, we show the movie What Dreams May Come in our Bible camps to teenagers, to warn them of the consequences: as Cuba Gooding says, "Suicides go to hell." --Uncle Ed (El Dunce) 18:17, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I agree that movements that have explicitly encourages suicides (like Peoples temple and solar temple) should not be lumped together with groups that may have caused suicide by making false promises (e.g. quackery) and bringing its members in difficult situations such as scientology and my former guru Sathya Sai Baba who sexually abuses good looking male devotees and who also is a quack. (scroll down) [1]. Andries 19:02, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Let's not be hasty, Andries. If a cult is driving people to suicide, that is yet another category. Like Japanese university entrance exams: students who fail to get into Waseda or other big name schools sometimes kill themselves.
- The question is, what sort of involvement is associated with increased suicide rates. If suicide is 1 in 100,000 per year in the general public, that is 0.001 percent. Solar Temple had over 50.000 percent, I guess. People's Temple is unclear: some were murdered (shot in the back when they ran away to escape drinking poison, or forced to drink poison at gunpoint).
- I have heard of only two reports of suicide in the UC(and both cases are disputed, one guy fell down an elevator shaft, another fell off a balcony). But please note this is off the top of my head. I have NOT researched it. I only know what church teachings are. --Uncle Ed (El Dunce) 14:38, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Martyrdom = Cult Suicide???
After reading this section 3 times, I am still having a hard time understanding how "martyrdom, as found in religions such as Christianity and Islam, is tantamount to suicide". I understand the idea of a suicide bomber, or some sort of ascetic suicide, perhaps, but being burnt at the stake because of your religious beliefs or practices -- 'how' is this "cult suicide"? If anyone could clarify this I would really appreciate it, or I will severely edit this section. I should also mention that the grammar of this paragraph is atrocious. Ddddan 22:15, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Just for the record, it is a belief held by some atheists that it is better to live by giving lip service to a religion than to die for any reason. In effect a martyr allows himself to die. This is in accordance with the definition of suicide. In which through one's actions or inactions one dies. --metta, The Sunborn ☥ 20:22, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
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- Is it suicide when a police officer is killed in the line of duty? How about a captured soldier who dies while being tortured for information on troop movements? -- Agredon 01:40, 22 Feb 2007 (Central)
[edit] Various suggestions
Distinguish better between:
- martyrdom, widely regarded as worthy; and,
- cult suicide, generally regarded as really stupid
And in the Scientology section, we apparently endorse the view that former scientologists are more suicidal while condemning Scientology for predicting that departing members are apt to be suicidal. Let's pick one of these, or note the contradiction.
Also, if Conway doesn't say how Scientology makes people suicidal, it's more of a detractor's claim than a sociological statement of fact. Has anyone read her book? (I tried twice to get through it, but it was so low in vitamin content I'd rather eat junk food). -- Uncle Ed (talk) 15:49, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] from Vfd
On 10 Mar 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. The result was keep. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Cult suicide for a record of the discussion. —Korath (Talk) 17:49, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Spinoff Martyrdom?
Maybe Martyrdom should be a separate article? It does tend to be an individual act, whereas cult suicide is more of a group act. StuTheSheep 03:20, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, the individual vs. group aspect is important. Thanks for pointing that out. Also, martyrdom typically does NOT involve suicide. The classic case of Saint Stephen being stoned to death (shortly after saying, "You stiff-necked people!") comes to mind. See Acts of the Apostles. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 17:20, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] (Advertisement)
(This section contained an advertisement trying to get people to join a yahoo group, I have removed it. Feel free to look at it in the history of this page if you really want to) --Xyzzyplugh 13:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Groups to replace
I admit I don't have a positive view of the Unification Church as a whole, but even at my most negative I didn't see them as suicidal. I'm tempted to remove them and replace them with something else. If I can find a suitable replacement to fit the bracket they are currently in would there be objections?--T. Anthony 06:13, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Islamic Fundamentalism
Can we add this one, I mean the Suicide bombings?
[edit] Cross-article disagreement:
In the Cult Suicide article, on the subject of the Heaven's Gate Cult, it says:
"Some male members of the cult underwent voluntary castration in preparation for the genderless life they believed awaited them after the suicide."
However, in the main Heaven's Gate Article, it says:
"Many male members of the cult voluntarily underwent castration as an extreme means of maintaining the ascetic lifestyle."
---
So which is it?
And I've also been noticing a lot of direct copying between some of these articles. Is that allowed?
Inspector Baynes 17:32, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Sidebars (templates)
The Cults template and the Suicide template are making the formatting of the main body of the article look bad. Everything is piled together visually, but I don't know how to fix it. Joie de Vivre 18:44, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance
This site has been questioned as a reliable source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/dc_solar.htm. On what basis? -Will Beback · † · 19:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
