Talk:Cruiser

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Shipwreck-related priority open tasks: To Do Shipwrecks Clean up typos Improve grammar Add any additions if needed Discuss desired additions Cattewater Wreck Needs expansion Done Shipwrecks Re-wrote the first paragraph Cleaned up Types of Shipwrecks it felt a bit jumbled Cattewater Wreck Started the article

Contents 1 The US Navy's "cruiser gap" 2 difference between cruiser and battlecruiser 3 Possibly unclear? 4 Requested move 4.1 Voting 4.2 Discussion 5 Origin of name 6 Suggested layout

[edit] The US Navy's "cruiser gap"

There is an interesting difference in the comparison between U.S. and U.K. versions of English.

In this section, the writer refers to Farragut-class vessels as "frigates". The designator for the class "DL" or "DLG" labels these as Destroyer Leaders, the purpose of which was to act as squadron flagship for a deployed destroyer squadron. In that they were built slightly larger, they had staff accommodations. Even the Royal Navy in WWII had vessels in a class designed specifically to act in this capacity. Smaller vessels (in particular DE and DEG) were Destroyer Escorts, designed with convoy escort duty in mind (and were only slightly larger than most WWII "frigates" (PF)). The larger DLG's were better equipped for Anti-aircraft Warfare (AAW), so were naturals for re-designation to CG/CGN (especially the nuclear vessels, who could keep up with the CV). The smaller DL/DLG vessels had lesser AAW weaponry and were really just destroyers. The MISSION determines the classification, not size. The Ticonderogas were designed, from the keel up, as cruisers. Their size was determined by the limitations of the Aegis radar deployment, and designation by the retirement of other older vessels. The Kidd-class destroyers (destined for Iran before the coup) were the only odd ducks hard to really classify - they were Spruance-class hulls with double launchers like the DLG's (that were re-designated as CG's). Which brings us to the Spruance-class Destroyers (DD). They were as large as many WWII cruisers, but were DD because of the better Antisubmarine Warfare (ASW) equipment installed.

I, also, find it interesting that the only two references quoted for this page are written by Brits. The portion of this section dealing with U.S. motives and reasons have not been attributed to any U.S. source. --CDR Tom Mischke USN(Ret.) 16:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] difference between cruiser and battlecruiser

Please clarify the difference between cruiser and battlecruiser, to help translation from foreign languages. mikka (t) 17:47, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

What exactly is unclear about the battlecruiser section already in this article? Stan 03:18, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

OK let me give you an example. An online Russian-English dictionary I have translates "линейный корабль" and "броненосец" as battleship. I'd rather want to have different words for them. The back conversion gives only the first version. Fortunately, "battlecruiser" and "линейный крейсер" match. What I want is a set of simple rules how to tell which ship is which, similar to Wikipedia:language recognition chart. I have already met cases of inconsistency on 'net as to types of Imperial Russian ships when I was double-checking wikipedia updates on the topic. mikka (t) 04:17, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I suppose you could say that their knack of exploding helped distinguish battlecruisers from other types of warship :-D. But seriously, compare two Royal Navy classes: Town class cruiser (1910) and HMS Indefatigable (1909). Battlecruisers were much, much larger than cruisers; they had bigger guns, almost comparable speed (i'm not sure how their armour compared). Battlecruisers dispensed with much of their armour to give them an advantage in speed compared to early dreadnought battleships, but they were pretty much similar in every other aspect. I'm not sure if that was the answer you were looking for, so sorry if it isn't! Take care. If I got anything wrong with the analogy, I'm sure Stan will correct me :-) SoLando (Talk) 04:45, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I pondered this some more since last writing, and oversimplified down to "armed like battleships, armored like cruisers". :-) We have a lot of verbiage on the subject in WP because battlecruisers have always been hard to classify. But the question of translation is rather different, and I can imagine random dictionaries not getting it right. What I would suggest is to find a Russian-language work on naval matters by a respectable authority, and see what word(s) are used to describe the vessels that are here called "battlecruisers", for instance anything in Category:Royal Navy battlecruisers. I'm sure that Russian naval experts have a term they've agreed upon, as well as which ships they categorize that way - better to rely on them than on us amateurs. :-) Stan 12:04, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Possibly unclear?

Forgive me if I'm being dense, but it seems to me that in the last paragraph of the 'Later 20th Century' section, it's not entirely clear what name is being misapplied.

[edit] Origin of name

We have two explainations as to the origin of the name Cruiser - one in the intro, and one at the start of the following History section. Can we either put both in the same area and list them as both possible origins, or examine which is actually correct?

I don't see a problem. The intro gives the etymology of the word, while the history section gives the reason for its application. Perhaps a full definition of the word would be better... Therealhazel 17:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested layout

I'd like to propose a layout for the article, broadly similar to that used at battleship, which presents the material roughly in a chronological order, with shipbuilding, strategic considerations, and operations all considered for each type in roughly the same place. There is no reason at all why this cannot be an FA.

What I suggest is:

1. Early history (to about 1850)
2. Roughly 1850 - 1880: the age of unarmoured steam cruisers
3. Development of Armored and Protected Cruisers - inc outline of the type of armor and tradeoffs required

   Elswick types

   Armored cruiser

   Protected cruisers

   Development of the PC into the 1910-ish Light Cruiser

   The cruiser as destroyer or TB flotilla leader

   Battlecruisers: Early 20th C view on obsolescent of the cruiser and results

4. World War I: Very brief overview of operations placing the existing cruisers in their context; the Bacchantes, Coronel, Falklands, Jutland, convoy duty
5. Cruisers 1919-39

   Cruiser design and production, 'light' and 'heavy', under the Treaties

   Breaching of the Treaties, including Japanese heavy cruisers and the Pocket Battleships

6. World War II
7. Cold War

   introduction of guided missiles, retirement of gun models (mention the Belgrano)

   cruiser's new role as fleet air defence unit

   AEGIS

8. Cruisers in current navies

... what d'you reckon? The Land 17:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I see where you are going, I will slowly start working on this one too, as all my current projects are coming to an end now. --MoRsE 15:07, 24 March 2007 (UTC)