Talk:Crown jewels
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It seems to me that the layout of this page (pictures and "captions") is a bit messy, but I'm not sure how to fix it, I mean, which is which? Laz 11:10 20 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Why is Europe listed first? A comes before E, so it seems biased to me.
(unsigned)
I don't think the format, just a list of countries where one or two have text, is helpful. Are we saying that all of these countries have crown jewels? If so we should say so at the top of the article, and reduce the ones for which there is no text; maybe a subsection for each country where there is something to say (other than just a link to the country article) and a bullet list of the rest where they have crown jewels. Would this be OK? DJ Clayworth 13:31, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
the continents have been moved alphabetically, i hope this solves the problem of "europe-first". indeed all these countries have crown jewels hidden somewhere. since this article is still evolving, the idea is that anyone can add in information if s/he finds some. For example someone just recently elaborated on "Iran", "Egypt", etc... but I think eventually at some future point we will have to break it up into continents, or something like that... we are currently trying to ease navigation with the help of the template at the bottom. Antares911 22:18, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Requested move
Capitalized "c" and "j" are only correct when the term is part of a proper noun, such as "Danish Crown Jewels". This is about crown jewels in the general sense, and thus should not be capitalized. Compare with "king" vs "King of Denmark", and see any dictionary. - Fredrik | talk 29 June 2005 15:41 (UTC)
- Support. Fredrik | talk 29 June 2005 15:41 (UTC)
- Oppose. FearÉIREANN
\(talk) 29 June 2005 18:15 (UTC) Lowercased, crown jewels would refer to all jewels possessed by the crown, including diadems, jewels, necklaces, badges, decorations, jewels worn by monarchs but which are not part of the state jewels, etc. Uppercased it narrows it down to the formal regalia, which are formally called The Crown Jewels. It is uppercased because this article is not about all jewels of the crown but the specific regalia associated with state ceremonial. Changing the capitalisation would change the whole meaning of the article.
- Look it up in any dictionary or encyclopedia, for example, The American Heritage Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, and Encyclopaedia Britannica. In all of these works, "crown jewels", lowercase, is said to denote the formal regalia of a government, and none even mentions the form "Crown Jewels". Fredrik | talk 29 June 2005 18:43 (UTC)
- They use American English which has a policy of lowercasing words. Wikipedia, as it is not an American publication, has a policy of using AE, British English and other variants, depending on the original language used by the original author and by topic. As there are no American crown jewels and the article is focusing on countries where if English is spoken at all, it is BE or International English, the BE/IE uppercasing of specific nouns as opposed to generic terms, rather than the AE standard of lowercasing everything, is followed here. The Crown Jewels in this article are the official state regalias, not the general jewels used in a monarchy, so the article's name was correctly written in upper case. FearÉIREANN\(talk) 29 June 2005 19:56 (UTC)
- Britannica uses American English? Now please provide evidence for your claim that "Crown Jewels" is used in British English to distinguish from any other form of crown jewels, as I have provided proof to the contrary. In fact, Britannica even uses "crown jewels" when referring to specific crown jewels! (For example, "French crown jewels", and the article on the Tower of London mentions "the crown jewels".) - Fredrik | talk 29 June 2005 20:18 (UTC)
- Britannica is an American publishing had has been for many years, since it was sold to a US owner. It has long followed AE in many cases and AE capitalisation in all cases. FearÉIREANN\(talk) 29 June 2005 20:40 (UTC)
- My apologies. I have only found one online British English dictionary, which uses lowercase. The Guardian also uses lowercase. You have still not proved your assertion. It is also unclear what you mean by "specific noun". I agree that proper nouns, such as "French Crown Jewels", should be capitalized, but the topic of this article is crown jewels in general, of which there happen to be specific examples. Compare to emperor listing the specific example of the Emperor of Japan -- by your logic, that article should use the term "Emperor" in the general case. As a side note, the original language used by the original author was American English, and the article still uses American English in many places (including the lead section). Fredrik | talk 29 June 2005 21:13 (UTC)
- Britannica is an American publishing had has been for many years, since it was sold to a US owner. It has long followed AE in many cases and AE capitalisation in all cases. FearÉIREANN
- Britannica uses American English? Now please provide evidence for your claim that "Crown Jewels" is used in British English to distinguish from any other form of crown jewels, as I have provided proof to the contrary. In fact, Britannica even uses "crown jewels" when referring to specific crown jewels! (For example, "French crown jewels", and the article on the Tower of London mentions "the crown jewels".) - Fredrik | talk 29 June 2005 20:18 (UTC)
- They use American English which has a policy of lowercasing words. Wikipedia, as it is not an American publication, has a policy of using AE, British English and other variants, depending on the original language used by the original author and by topic. As there are no American crown jewels and the article is focusing on countries where if English is spoken at all, it is BE or International English, the BE/IE uppercasing of specific nouns as opposed to generic terms, rather than the AE standard of lowercasing everything, is followed here. The Crown Jewels in this article are the official state regalias, not the general jewels used in a monarchy, so the article's name was correctly written in upper case. FearÉIREANN
- Look it up in any dictionary or encyclopedia, for example, The American Heritage Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, and Encyclopaedia Britannica. In all of these works, "crown jewels", lowercase, is said to denote the formal regalia of a government, and none even mentions the form "Crown Jewels". Fredrik | talk 29 June 2005 18:43 (UTC)
-
- Newspapers in Britain generally (but not universally) use AE - it is a complicated story relating to the use of hot metal technology, etc - but sourcebooks outside the US generally don't, though there are exceptions. Wikipedia had an initial policy that said 'use the language of the original author' but that was dropped when articles on entirely American topics were turning up in BE, and articles on British topics were being written in AE. So the rule is - if about a topic that is exclusively about America, use AE, if about the UK, use BE. Generally articles about countries or topics in countries that don't use one type of English should not have it used. Most of the counties in here either don't use english or if they do use International English, which is a version of BE. Only if an article covers topics linked to places some of which use AE and some of which use BE (eg, the World Bank effects both the US, UK and everyone else) is the language on Wikipedia now decided on by means of who started the page. As to emperor versus Emperor, that would be valid except that this article is not about crown jewels in general (eg, the private tiara of the Queen of Spain, Diana's spencer tiara when she was married to Charles, Queen Elizabeth's private jewellery, etc, all of which are worn publicly and so are identified with the monarchy, but are personal private property). It is about state-owned crowns, state-owned tiaras, state-owned sceptres, state-owned orbs, etc., in other words the official state regalia. Uppercasing defines it as the Crown Jewels. Lowercasing broadens it to any jewels owned or used publicly by the wearer of the crown, both public and private. FearÉIREANN\(talk) 29 June 2005 21:36 (UTC)
- The Oxford English Dictionary uses lowercase "crown jewels", in reference to "the jewels which form part of the regalia" (my emphasis). And The Guardian uses BE, not AE. - Fredrik | talk 30 June 2005 06:07 (UTC)
- Newspapers in Britain generally (but not universally) use AE - it is a complicated story relating to the use of hot metal technology, etc - but sourcebooks outside the US generally don't, though there are exceptions. Wikipedia had an initial policy that said 'use the language of the original author' but that was dropped when articles on entirely American topics were turning up in BE, and articles on British topics were being written in AE. So the rule is - if about a topic that is exclusively about America, use AE, if about the UK, use BE. Generally articles about countries or topics in countries that don't use one type of English should not have it used. Most of the counties in here either don't use english or if they do use International English, which is a version of BE. Only if an article covers topics linked to places some of which use AE and some of which use BE (eg, the World Bank effects both the US, UK and everyone else) is the language on Wikipedia now decided on by means of who started the page. As to emperor versus Emperor, that would be valid except that this article is not about crown jewels in general (eg, the private tiara of the Queen of Spain, Diana's spencer tiara when she was married to Charles, Queen Elizabeth's private jewellery, etc, all of which are worn publicly and so are identified with the monarchy, but are personal private property). It is about state-owned crowns, state-owned tiaras, state-owned sceptres, state-owned orbs, etc., in other words the official state regalia. Uppercasing defines it as the Crown Jewels. Lowercasing broadens it to any jewels owned or used publicly by the wearer of the crown, both public and private. FearÉIREANN
- Support —Mulad (talk) June 30, 2005 06:29 (UTC)
- Support. James F. (talk) 1 July 2005 18:11 (UTC)
- Support. Clearly not a proper noun when used generally. Jonathunder 2005 July 3 16:38 (UTC)
- Confused but doesn´t the name refer to the set as a whole? why is it then Crown Jewels of the United Kingdom? Antares911 4 July 2005 16:21 (UTC)
-
- Precisely. And this article about sets, not individual royal jewels that are not part of the sets. If it was about say, a diamond necklace personally owned by Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom worn at the State Opening of Parliament, a ring personally owned by Queen Margrethe II of Denmark and worn at state functions, a personally owned tiara worn by Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands worn publicly, a diamond personally owned by Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany, then the article would belong at crown jewels. But it isn't. It is about the crowns, orbs an sceptres that are state owned, state symbols worn by the head of state, and which together form a set known as the Crown Jewels or in some cases the Regalia (uppercased). Capitals are used to distinguish the formal name of a formal entity (usually indicated by the use of the definitive article) and something generic; so we have president and the President of the United States, prime minister and the Prime Minister, crown jewels and the Crown Jewels. The capitalisation shows that the article is about the sets, not privately owned jewels worn alongside the Crown Jewels but which aren't part of the set. FearÉIREANN\(talk) 4 July 2005 20:22 (UTC)
- Precisely. And this article about sets, not individual royal jewels that are not part of the sets. If it was about say, a diamond necklace personally owned by Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom worn at the State Opening of Parliament, a ring personally owned by Queen Margrethe II of Denmark and worn at state functions, a personally owned tiara worn by Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands worn publicly, a diamond personally owned by Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany, then the article would belong at crown jewels. But it isn't. It is about the crowns, orbs an sceptres that are state owned, state symbols worn by the head of state, and which together form a set known as the Crown Jewels or in some cases the Regalia (uppercased). Capitals are used to distinguish the formal name of a formal entity (usually indicated by the use of the definitive article) and something generic; so we have president and the President of the United States, prime minister and the Prime Minister, crown jewels and the Crown Jewels. The capitalisation shows that the article is about the sets, not privately owned jewels worn alongside the Crown Jewels but which aren't part of the set. FearÉIREANN
- problem i think i see what the problem is. both sides are right. but wikipedia at this moment unfortunately does not allow articles to be listed under small letters. so maybe the correct heading of such an article is "crown jewels", but the system does not allow it to be listed, because it capitalises the first word always... hm.. Antares911 9 July 2005 17:20 (UTC)
- Support. When used in this sense, it refers to crown jewels in general. – AxSkov (T) 13:22, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
This article has been renamed after the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 19:38, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Slang use of "Crown Jewels"
One major thing left out in this article is its second meaning. The Crown Jewels are also a slang refrence to your private parts.
