Talk:Criticisms of the Inheritance Trilogy

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[edit] Started an Article.

I am not an Eragon fan, but I am tired of seeing people with different views flaming each other, arguing on both talk boards and the article itself, the continuing circle of flame-delete-flame-delete war going on Eragon and Eragon-related articles. So, people who would like to have their say about the (arguable) plagiarisms that exist in Inheritance trilogy, now here is a page where you can actually analyse them in a Wikipedian-like manner WITHOUT flaming on neutral articles. And for Eragon fans, here is where you can source counter-critisms and not overflow Eragon/Eldest articles there.

Remember, this is still a Wikipedia article, NOT a free chat board or place to force your opinions and flame each other about it. Remember to cite published reviews (preferably not from Eragon fan sites or anti-Eragon sites) and remain neutral and formal. That includes the talk page. Tinned Butterfly 22:11, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dune

Bid'Daum is Maud'dib backwards, though Paolini may have said this was an intentional homage. Also, Elva has been accused of being similar to a girl from Dune. (Form of similarities will be given point by point, with counter-arguments below each point.):

  • She has been called an 'abomidation'
    • However, this is a very specific term in Dune, referring to a congential spiritual condition caused by the mother ingesting Spice while pregnant, whereas it was used as a exclaimation of disgust in Inheritance. So, this could be utterly concidental.
  • She has violet eyes.
    • This is a somewhat generic 'fantasy special trait', and could just be a concidence.
  • She acts far older than her age, and was 'forced to grow up fast by magical means', which frightens all those around her.** The girl in Dune acted far older as she literally had the spirits of her ancestors in her head, so she had to deal with all of them since she was born. Elva was forced to grow up fast by Eragon's bungled spell, and acted far older as she could feel the pain and misfortune of all those around her, and was impelled to protect them.

If I can think of more similarities, I'll add them to the discussion page, with counter-arguments. Also, I'll retrive the Dune girl's name ASAP... 169.229.121.94 03:35, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

The Dune girl's name is Alia. Sorry! 169.229.121.94 03:39, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

That looks very good. Why don't you add that to the Dune section? Be bold, and feel free to edit anytime! Tinned Butterfly 02:32, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I added it to the main article. UnaLaguna 06:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about the Bid'Daum thing... I can't find it online, and I originally got the info from reading a post on Anti-Shur'tugal: " Ooh, I just saw it yesterday. It's from an interview at du Shur'tugals. QUOTE Kari: During the phone chat, you mentioned that some of the names in the Eldest are jokes, like Cadoc. Care to share a few more with us?

Chris: Okay. Cadoc is codac spelled backwards. Yazuac, the term where the Urgals first show up is an anagram for the yakuza, the Japanese mafia. The first Eragon, the elf Eragon, his dragon, Bid Daum is MuadDib spelled backwards. MuadDib, from Dune of course. Oh, I’m not going to give away the rest. If anyone finds them, they’ll know what they are."

The link to said post is http://z13.invisionfree.com/AntiShurtugal/index.php?showtopic=448. The problem with the Du Shur'tugals link is, well, the site was closed down. So I can't verify the quote, but that's what was said... Apologies, I'll try to contribute to other points in the article... 169.229.121.94 05:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conter-criticisms in seperate sections?

Someone has added some counter-criticisms in Criticisms over derivative nature of books section. That looks good, but maybe wouldn't that become very long once many counter-criticisms are added? And also the fact in that section only published criticisms are cited, so perhaps it should be same for the counter-criticism part of it...

Maybe we should put counter-criticisms for each sections, for example counter-criticisms for Dune in Dune section, ect, so many types counter-criticism regarding different works are crowded in one little sub-section. Tinned Butterfly 02:38, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, as far as I know, there aren't published counter-criticisms, and I tried to do the counter-criticisms based in part on Paolini's comments on his inspirations (Hero's Journey archetype) and when the criticisms can be argued (LOTR similiarites, or Fantasy cliches?) Anti-Shur'tugal occasionally has a poster counter some of the argument in their web forums, but the posts are VERY few and far between. I'll try to figure out more counter-criticisms... 169.229.121.94 06:18, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] original research

This article needs more citations, particularly for the counter-criticism. And even though I'll bet that most of the parallels drawn are correct, but I think those might need citations too.--Spiderchan 03:27, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. This article seems in danger of becoming a repository for every parallel between the trilogy and some other work of fiction that pops into an editor's head. That's just not encyclopedic.
Also, a number of the citations in the present article are from less-than-reliable sources. Anyone can start a website to list their complaints about the Inheritance Trilogy; doing so does not make those comments worthy of an encyclopedia article.
I'm not sure that the few notable references found so far are sufficient for a full article. They are an important part of the critical response to the trilogy, which is why they're listed in its main article. Duplicating that discussion here doesn't seem to me to have much purpose. As such, unless someone can come up with additional significant criticism regarding the trilogy's derivative nature, I question the usefulness of this page. Brendan Moody 01:48, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gulliver's Travels

How about throwing Swift into the mix? Think back to the soldiers who shoot arrows at Eragon by mistake, compared to the Liliputians who fire arrows at Gulliver. In both cases, the miscreants are about to be punished by their own people, when our protagonist steps in, seemingly in a rage, but instead pardoning his attackers. --Kent county 00:08, 29 January 2007 (UTC) Huh.65.27.211.52 20:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] David Eddings

This is actually, on Anti-Shur'tugal, a main complaint on the subject of 'ripoffs'. I'm trying to think of counter-arguments to the criticisms for the most part, but this seems like a valid criticism:

[Regarding one of Edding's books]

"Yeah. Garion, the protagonist and main character, has a circular, silvery scar on his right palm. It's from touching the Orb, which is a round blue magic rock, basically. When he has a son, Geran, he takes it to the Orb and has him touch it, and the scar-thingy is formed. All the Rivan Kings have had one.

Open to correction, although I'm pretty sure that this is accurate."

And also, there was SOME SCENE... when Brom cuts the purse of the 'bridge guard', some of the expressions are copied nearly word for word from a scene from Eddings, where a wise old tutor cuts the purse of a bridge guard... I know I saw it on Anti-Shur'tugal somewhere. Be getting back soon.

I FOUND THE THREAD. http://z13.invisionfree.com/AntiShurtugal/index.php?showtopic=1060&st=0&#entry5020382

"- The Ruby Knight (David Eddings - 1991):

Our hero Sparhawk tries to cross the bridge with his traveling companions, the young boy Talen among them.

Beside the ford stood a small hut. The man who owned it was a sharped eyed fellow in a green tunic who demanded a toll to cross. Rather than argue with him, Sparhawk paid what he asked. “Tell me neighbour,” he asked when the transaction was completed “how far is the Pelosian border?” “About five leagues” the sharp eyed man replied. “If you move along, you should reach it by afternoon.” They splashed on across the ford. When they reached the other side, Talen rode up to Sparhawk. Here’s your money back,” the young boy said, handing over several coins. Sparhawk gave him a startled look. “I don’t object to paying a toll to cross a bridge” Talen sniffed. “After all, someone had to go to the expense of building it. That fellow was just taking advantage of a natural shallow place in the river. It didn’t cost him anything, so why should he make a profit from it? "You cut his purse, then?" “Naturally.” “And there was more in it than just my coins?” “A bit. Let’s call it my fee for recovering your money. After all, I deserve a profit too, don’t I?” “You’re incorrigible.” “I needed the practice.” From the other side of the river came a howl of anguish. “I’d say he just discovered his loss” observed Sparhawk. “It does sort of sound that way, doesn’t it?


and then we have..

   - Eragon (Christopher Paolini - 2003):

The Anora River flowed between them and the town, spanned by a stout bridge. As they approached it, a greasy man stepped (out) from behind a bush and barred their way. His shirt was too short and his dirty stomach spilled over a rope belt. Behind his cracked lips, his teeth looked like crumbling tombstones.

“You c’n stop right there. This’s my bridge. Gotta pay t’ get over.” “How much?” asked Brom in a resigned voice. He pulled out a pouch and the bridge keeper brightened. “Five crowns” he said, pulling his lips into a broad smile. Eragon’s temper flared at the exorbitant price, and he started to complain hotly, but Brom silenced him with a quick look. The coins were wordlessly handed over. The man put them into a sack hanging from his belt. “Thank’ee much” he said in a mocking tone and stood out of the way. As Brom stepped forward, he stumbled and caught the bridge keeper’s arm to support himself. “Watch y’re step” snarled the grimy man sidling away. “Sorry” apologised Brom, and continued over the bridge with Eragon. “Why didn’t you haggle? He skinned you alive!” exclaimed Eragon. He probably doesn’t even own the bridge.” “Probably” agreed Brom. “Then why pay him?” Because you can’t argue with all the fools in the world. It’s easier to let them have their way, then trick them when they’re not paying attention.” Brom opened his hand, and a pile of coins glinted in the sun. “You cut his purse!” said Eragon incredulously. Brom pocketed the money with a wink. There was a sudden howl of anguish from the other side of the river. “I’d say our friend has just discovered his loss.”

I highlighted the more obvious sentences he completely ripped-off. Plagiarism doesn't need to be a word for word copy. He copied the scene and even took whole sentences."

Er... somewhat compelling... The poster's wording is a bit strong, but there's definitely a similarity...

169.229.121.94 06:08, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Just found a person listing similarities to David Eddings: "Other similarities to the Belgariad revolve around Garion, who:

  • - starts off as a simple farmboy
  • - was born with a round, silvery mark on his palm (which Eddings was never pretentious enough to name).
  • - has a tendency to ask 'why me?' when he gets frustrated.
  • - was (deliberately) never taught to read, as mentioned before.
  • - leaves town with an old storyteller to go on an adventure.
  • - has a series of dreams the night before a climactic event in which he is repeatedly asked 'are you ready?'. This also happens before the final battle in Eragon. Eddings had meaning, symbolism and relevance by having the dreams be distorted versions of specific events in Garion's life, with people he knew asking the question. Paolini has a single paragraph that means nothing and has no obvious relevance."

Although, the first and fifth points are somewhat cliche, the third is vague, and the fourth could actually be a coincidence and an attempt to be reallistic... but the 2nd and 6th points seem somewhat valid. 169.229.121.94 23:30, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I thought the Eddings ripoffs were pretty blatent, calling the 'chief town administrator' of a coastal fortress 'Brand' being another. --njh 23:08, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Earthsea

  • "The system of magic that appear in Inheritance Trilogy is almost identical to the magic system that appear in Earthsea series by Ursula K. Le Guin. In both Inheritance Trilogy and Earthsea series all objects have a true name in one old language. The speaker can gain power over an object or living thing if he or she utters the true name of that object or living thing, and in both works people use magic through speaking the old language.
  • Also in both works, it is impossible to lie in this old language so that magic works by forcing the universe to conform to the words spoken by the mage. For example, to say "I am an eagle" in the old language means that the speaker becomes an eagle, so that the statement is no longer false."

Quoted from the article. But, controlling something using its True Name is hardly new, and in some cases a fantasy cliche.

Take Neverwinter Nights Hordes of the Underdark for example. One of the ways to defeat Metisopheles (misspelled due to not having played in years), the final boss of the game, is to purchase his True Name from the Knower of Names in one of the Nine Hells (if I recall right), and command him to surrender, kill himself, etc.

In Diadem, a children's fantasy book series by John Peel, people can be commanded by their (REAL) names by a wizard, if said wizard is very strong. This fails to control the main characters in Book 1 of the series, as he only overheard them giving their nicknames. The strongest wizard in the magical universe (it's complicated) attempts to bind them during book 3 by using their (APPARENT) real names, but fails, and the reason why is revealed when they are mysteriously teleported to a throne room: they are really the reincarnations of the Three who Rule(d) the magical worlds, and so their 'real names' are actually those of the Three. The concept of True Names remains.

I believe that True Names are actually something from a mythology (Native American, possibly?) but I cannot confirm.

To be continued... 169.229.121.94 06:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi again. I also argue the 'cannot lie' detail is actually different in Inheritance. When, in Eldest, Eragon attempts to tell Arya that he feels fine after her rejection of him (when he doesn't), the words 'stop in his mouth' (paraphrased). As a result, he has to twist the truth by telling her "I'm better than before" (in the mental context of his back). So, the universe DOES NOT conform to the rules of the Ancient Language when a false statement is uttered. [EDIT: By that, I mean a false statement CANNOT be uttered, and DOES NOT change the universe when uttered because it cannot be uttered! 169.229.121.94 07:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC)) Continued next post. 169.229.121.94 06:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Could someone who's read Earthsea inform me how, exactly, magic is 'activated'? From the "Magic is the Simplest Thing" chapter in Eragon, and also the chapter after "Du Sundavar Freohr", it seems in Inheritance that you must (SOMEWHAT, caveat below) consciously use magic by breaking through a "barrier" in your mind to release the power, and THEN saying the magic words. In Earthsea, it just sounds like you say "I am a hawk" in the old language, and whether you were saying it without attention or not, you literally turn into a hawk. Also, this may sound stupid if the answer is yes, but does it take energy to use magic in Earthsea? In Eragon, it takes power equal to that needed to perform the task without magic... Although if you can generate fire from your bow without magic, please tell me... (Rhetorical question =))

This raises the 'inconsistency' that the first time Eragon used magic, he didn't even know how. However, with a bit of assuming the foreshadowing is where I think it is, it's actually well-planned out:

  • Eragon sees Brom use magic, although he may not know what it is at the time. He asks Brom about it later, after he learns, so he did remember up til then that Fire is linked to BRISINGR, though until he asks, he may not have remembered it consciously...
  • Eragon, when fighting the Urgals, is very tensed and enraged by the massacre. As a result, he (apparently) unconsciously breaks the barrier in his mind, which is the source of the strange power he feels within him...
  • In an adrenline-fueled flash of insight, he connects BRISINGR=Fire=Magic in his head, and so shouts the magic word out as he fires, releasing the enormous amount of power he had welling up within him. Then, he forgets, as Eragon doesn't have the longest memory... =) more seriously, he's mentally and physically tired, and cannot remember his flash of insight as it didn't stick in his head.

QED for Earthsea (unless I can think of anything else...) 169.229.121.94 07:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spine of the World

Actually, it is ALSO used in Dungeons and Dragons, to describe a mountain range, and R.A. Salvadore has a book called The Spine of the World set in the Forgotten Realms subset of the Dungeons and Dragons novels. So, possibly, it could be taken from that, not Robert Jordan. From the Wikipedia article about THAT Spine of the World: "It is said to be almost impossible to cross, teeming with ogres, orcs, and other foul creatures of the north" With the near-impossiblity of crossing, it sounds like the 'Spine' in Eragon could come from there instead. 169.229.121.94 23:39, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Warning against detailing too much

Just a warning...

As Brendan Moody has pointed out, This article seems in danger of becoming a repository for every parallel between the trilogy and some other work of fiction that pops into an editor's head. That's just not encyclopedic. Parallels between Inheritance Trilogy and other fictional works that are both obvious and important to both works should be stated and cited (Star Wars and LotR comes into the mind, they are the two that is the most often noted and criticised), but going in to every unnecessary, unimportant similarities with other fictional works won't do. Please, only add when the parallel is both obvious and is a major part of the work, and cite whenever possible. Tinned Butterfly 02:16, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Radical stubbing

I've removed a lot of uncited and poorly cited material from the article. I looked at all the cited sources. First, I removed those that are not appropriate for the encyclopedia. As mentioned above, personal websites, small non-influential group sites, and public review sites are not appropriate sources, because anyone could produce them. To be worth mentioning in an encyclopedia article, a theory or criticism must be mentioned by a prominent commentator. Links to newspapers, magazines, and major websites are good for this sort of thing, and those already in the article are exemplary sources. See the section of the Neutral Point of View policy that deals with the concept of "undue weight" for more on this, or ask me any questions you might have. Most of the specific comparisons in the article were drawn from such sources or not sourced at all, so I removed them.

I then looked at the remaining sources, and reworded the sections dealing with them to actually reflect the contents of the source. The Entertainment Weekly ones may not be available in full online at present; I assume they were accurate, so I left them, though I did reword a section that had misread the article's intention.

Please don't take this as an attempt to remove criticism as such; I've never read these books, and I don't get the impression I'd like them. I'm only interested in producing a good encyclopedic article that synthesizes major critical response to this series. This means removing any detailed response, pro or con, that doesn't have a worthy citation. Thanks for your attention and help. Brendan Moody 04:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I must say that I felt the size of the change was a little radical, but I will have to agree that it was necessary.
I will go and see if I can find more sources. However, I do find many reviews that mentions Inheritance Trilogy's derivative natures with detail, but most of them are reviews of the film version of the Eragon. You could argue that they are based on and part of the Inheritance Trilogy......Maybe the articles should be involving the film and the video versions of the trilogy. Tinned Butterfly 05:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Professional reviews of the film would be very useful, I think, particularly if the details in question are in the books as well. Brendan Moody 05:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
The problem with the movie is that it's nothing like the book. A lot of the details and even basic storylines don't even show up in the movie. The only things that are exactly the same are the character names/species and a couple of towns. I would suggest focusing this page entirely on the book just because the book and movie are just so different from each other, it makes it really difficult to compare them based on the same material, this material. --pIrish 13:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm, I do know that the movie was not identical to the novel. Yet, the basic plot and character relationships were same as the novel(May be my personal view, so I will need some inputs)which are the parts that are most often criticized due to their derivative nature. Also I think I have seen some professional reviews that mention both film and novel. I will see what I can find. Tinned Butterfly 06:25, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I like the edit. It was massive, but it fixed a big problem and definitely made it more encyclopedic. The problem with articles like this is that it is ridiculously easy for some to start using original research everywhere, find some random site that supports it, and say that it must be true because they found something on the internet that said it was. Pages like this also have a habit of leaning far too much toward one side. One biased person wants to put every criticism they can find in it, while completely failing to add information from the other side (possibly in defense of these criticisms). Anyway, thank you for the work you did. I'd like to see the article get some more length, but I'd also rather have it look professional. --pIrish 13:54, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This cycle again.

Someone has added specific details to the derivative nature of the books, without any sources or citations. Likely this user has done this edit without looking at the talk pages and history and realize that this page already went through cleaning up due to the lack of citations......I see the cycle starting, the repetition of cleaning up -> someone adds uncited details -> cleaning up, and so on. The exact cycle that we had in Eragon article. I may be over-reacting, but couldn't something be done about this before this sets into a cycle? Tinned Butterfly 07:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I guess until we can get some citations "less is more". UnaLaguna 08:03, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I was the one who added those details. Sorry about that--I'm rather new to Wikipedia and it didn't occur to me to check this talk page first. I understand that you don't want the page too detailed and cluttered up--but I don't really know what you mean by "sources or citations." The points I mentioned are all directly from the books and movies themselves... is it just better to use direct quotations instead of summarizing the plot and characters? Or do I have to quote somebody else making the comparisons--somebody who has some actual authority, like a book reviewer? Alania Flamestar 00:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Welcome to Wikipedia, Alania Flamestar. It is recommended that articles should be cited from reliable sources, yes, like book reviewer, etc...... For details why articles should be cited, have a look at Wikipedia:Citing_sources, it explains better then I could ever explain. Thank you! Tinned Butterfly 01:12, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Unofficial fan sites, or their opposite, tend to list these criticisms, but the sites are not considered "citeworthy", if you get my drift. Professional reviews can be cited, and any which mention derivative natures could come in useful here. The article used to be much longer and, in my foolishness, I contributed to this length. Whilst all that was added is feasible, most of it counts as original research, which is a big no-no.
I think the current revision is pretty good and that Butterffly's abridgements are in no way bad. Anomynous IPs tend to add stuff to the article and it can't be used because of the lack of sources. A similar thing happens with the more prominent Eragon (regarding the book and character) pages. If we had a bigger problem on our hands then I'd consider making this article at least semi-protected. It's not that the content added is bad, it's just that it lacks the required sources. UnaLaguna 18:48, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other Novels

How come nobody has mentioned general plot similarities to Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series? I'm not making accusations of plagiarism, but Eragon certainly has a similar plot.

We need sources before we can add anything.UnaLaguna 05:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
To clarify what UnaLaguna said, we need reliable, notable sources that specifically talk about the comparisons between the two works. --pIrish 12:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] When will people learn to stop adding unsourced stuff to this page?

I just removed the following:

Several similarities to Harry Potter, including a young wizard nod, have beenfound by Inheritance critics.

Aside from not even being written with proper English, it lacks a source! Nobody's putting this back until we have a source, and a quick Google and skimming through the pages has come up with nowt.

This is really getting on my nerves now. UnaLaguna 18:57, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merging half of this page.

Half of this page, the parts about Eldest. Should be merged with the article Eldest. I am thinking of just taking the criticism part of Eldest and putting it into the Article Eldest(If you havn't notice Eldest doesn't have a criticism Section and has been constantly redited and now it's GONE.) Anker99 04:15, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

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