Talk:Criticisms of communism/new discussion

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• New discussion temporarely moved here in order to preserve the links used in the arbitration case. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 22:40, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Starting fresh 2 Environment 2.1 Proposed modification 2.2 Arguments to modify 2.3 Arguments to keep 3 Technology 3.1 Proposed modification 3.2 Arguments to modify 3.3 Arguments to keep 4 Science 4.1 Proposed modification 4.2 Arguments to modify 4.3 Arguments to keep 5 Unprotecting 6 Economic Development/Comparison between countries 7 List of proposed changes III 7.1 The section "Relevance of the Communist states for Marxist theory" 7.2 The section "Human rights" 7.3 The section "Tabula Rasa" 7.4 The section "Historical analysis" 7.5 Pseudoscience 7.6 Marx's predictions 7.7 Historical materialism 7.8 Labor theory of value 7.9 Environment 7.10 Life expectancy 7.11 Living standards 7.12 Economic growth under Stalin 7.13 Cuba 7.14 East Germany 7.15 Korea and China 7.16 Terrorism 7.17 Science 7.18 Numbers killed 7.19 Czarist Russia 7.20 WWII 7.21 Imperialism 7.22 Critics of communism 8 The deleted well-referenced facts and arguments 9 NPOV

[edit] Starting fresh

Okay, that was a lengthy dispute and a five-day list of proposed changes. I've archived it now, see above. Frankly I must say I don't know enough about this topic to have an opinion on whether the changes are appropriate. Also, the diff between the currently protected version and the last is far from helpful. Let's see if we can reach a compromise on this.

Might I suggest the following. Let's start with three points, 1.Environment, 2.Technology, and 3.Science. Whichever of you that doesn't agree with the current version should write a short paragraph in the sections below describing what should be changed, and add a few arguments. The other party should add a few counterarguments. Please don't go any further than that for the first couple of days. Oh yes, and both parties please sources.

Then, we request community input. Third opinion, basically. That's what article RFCs are for. Do you think that's workable? Radiant_>|< 00:09, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

The editors involved in this page have thoroughly discussed all of these points over and over again. There's really no reason to ask them to rehash all of them and play them out once again, at least other than to torture them. It makes much more sense instead to wait for the arbitration ruling. 172 | Talk 00:15, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

• There's an arbcom case about this article? Ouch, that's what I get from being too absent these days. My idea was that if they represented their points in a comprehensible manner (as opposed to the a lenghty and confusing discussion I saw earlier) then other people may be able to understand the dispute and help out. Very well, I'll leave it be for now. Radiant_>|< 00:20, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
  • The case is Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Ultramarine. Perhaps this page should be reverted back to show the contents of the now archived talk, as evidence so that everyone is on the same page with regard to the staus of this article. Thanks for your reply and your intentions. 172 | Talk 00:52, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Fortunately, the links to individual diffs from the Arb pages still appear to work. Presumably the links (and I believe there are some) to sections here do not. Can the archive be merged back until the Arbitration is complete? (This is why I have not archived this talk page, btw.) Septentrionalis 06:11, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
      • I'll go ahead and merge the sections. To anyone, if I make a mistake in doing so, just revert me. 172 | Talk 07:24, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
        • Oh Christ. It's impossible to move Talk:Criticisms of communism/Archive, the page with the full page history]] back to where it was (Talk:Criticisms of communism) before Radiant's move without first deleting the new Talk:Criticisms of communism created by Radiant's move. My attempt to undo Radiant's move then messed things up even more. Sorry. We'll need Radiant's help to get all the pages moved back to where the belong. 172 | Talk 07:37, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I moved things back to where I think Radiant had them. Talk through with him what you think should be done instead. --Tony Sidaway^Talk 19:44, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
      • This is still problematic, as it leaves the prior page history of the talk page at Talk:Criticisms of communism/Archive. The pages should be moved back to where they were before Radiant's moves, though they were quite well intentioned and laudable. 172 | Talk 19:50, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I think there are several ownership problems here, not just one. I'd ask all participants involved to take a step back and ask themselves: how do my actions help to produce an encyclopedia? --Tony Sidaway^Talk 21:23, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Your point? No one was asking you for your opinion on who has ownership issues here. I criticized you for not consulting Ryan. I am no longer an involved in this dispute and will no longer edit this article; so you and Ryan are the ones who can discuss just how you are going to handle Ultramarine. 172 | Talk 04:41, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Incorrect 172, and try to be more civil. I filed an incident report regarding Delaney's original violation of policy by reverting before his protection, that was a request for not just opinion but corrective action. Delaney's abuse and ownship issues continue, and you are still here, I guess accusing Sidaway of not showing proper deference to another admin.--Silverback 16:15, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Environment

[edit] Proposed modification

[edit] Arguments to modify

[edit] Arguments to keep

[edit] Technology

[edit] Proposed modification

[edit] Arguments to modify

[edit] Arguments to keep

[edit] Science

[edit] Proposed modification

[edit] Arguments to modify

[edit] Arguments to keep

[edit] Unprotecting

Looking at the history it seems mainly to have been some kind of edit war between two parties. This isn't a good reason to stop everybody editing an article, so after over a week I'm unprotecting. If I see a repetition of the disruptive ping-pong style edit warring, I'll deal with it by blocking the disruptive editors. Please feel free to edit boldly in the search for consensus. --Tony Sidaway^Talk

I announced that I would no longer be editing this article, as there is no chance of reasoning with Ultramarine when he asserts his ownership over an article. So perhaps my input no longer matters here. At any rate, I suggest that you hold off and consult with Ryan Delaney, the administrator who has been following this page and who imposed the protection, before acting unilaterally here. 172 | Talk 20:01, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

BTW, does anyone want to place bets as to when we see that the "correct and referenced version" is restored? My bet is quite soon. 172 | Talk 20:26, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't appreciate Tony unprotecting articles I have protected without consulting me, for the second time. As User:172 pointed out, I've been following this dispute and I protected the article for a reason. --Ryan Delaney ^talk 21:02, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

As admitted by himself, Ryan Delaney has willfully broken the protection policy because he dislikes me as a person. At the same time he made a personal attack: "To this, I plead guilty as charged; I did willfully ignore that part of the blocking policy, and I ignored it because I felt the situation called for me to do so. Rather than revert while protecting, I could have waited for someone else to revert, and then protect the article, and in so doing avoid all appearance of impropriety: but I feel that would not have been necessary. Ultramarine is one of the most stubborn, persistent, and arrogant Wikipedia editors I have encountered." [1]

He has also entered evidence in the RfA which involves this article. He should obviously not protect this page. Ultramarine 21:10, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Economic Development/Comparison between countries

I'm not sure if this has already been discussed before, so I'll just raise the issue: currently, the only comparisons mentioned are those between East and West Germany and between Cuba and Jamaica/Cuba and Caribbean. I agree that the second comparison is not really meaningful, given the embargo of Cuba, but also given that Jamaica is hardly a model capitalist economy. Actually I was wondering why there was no mention of North and South Korea: after all, South Korea was traditionally the poorer, agricultural part of Korea, while the North was the industrial heart of the country. Yet once South Korea started to adopt capitalist economics, its economy developped very fast (actually faster than even Japan). In the meantime, North Korea descended into mismanagement and famine. Another example could be China: once China adopted pro-capitalist reforms (i.e. after Mao) the economy started to bloom and now is one of the economic motors of the world. Again, another comparison could also be made with Taiwan, which after all was a neglected and not very industrial island before the Kuomintang sought refuge there and became one of the Asian tiger nations (even though almost no country actually recognises it!). Luis rib 20:31, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

You can find these comparisons in the correct and referenced version. As it is usually immediately blankly reverted, I suggest that you look in the edit history in order to find it. Ultramarine 20:51, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

What about this consideration. By far most countries in the world are capitalist and most of those are poor and very few have escaped that poverty. So that makes for a very bad case for capitalism, but I wouldn't abolish it for that reason. And the reason for that is that there are almost no alternatives. The only one is 'communism' (well, state socialism, really), but every country that has adopted that did so through a revolution. And revolutions are pretty disruptive. The only example of non-revolutionary communism I can think of (and this is more like true communism) are the kibutzim in Israel. I expect that if you'd classify countries by the stability of their political development you'd see that that is the determining factor in stead of the economic model in use (there must be such studies - anyone?). Ultimately, there are waaaaaay too few examples to statistically make a case for anything at all. And ceterus is most definitely not paribus here. So the only thing you can say is that you can't say anything. People understandably don't like such conclusions, but let's keep things scientific. DirkvdM 21:05, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] List of proposed changes III

The correct and referenced version has over 70 verifiable and reliable references for its statements. In contrast, the other version violates Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research, and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. It contains deliberate and verifiable factual errors, numerous dubious original research statements, and systematic deletions of views with verifiable and reliable sources. Here are some of the more important differences. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

We have already been over this twice already, and it proved impossible to reach an agreement with you. I have not responded to your points earlier because I have come to the conclusion that trying to reason with you is futile; I assume the other editors feel the same way. But I will attempt to discuss with you once more. I will also restore the previous Talk page which contains important evidence of our past arguments. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The section "Relevance of the Communist states for Marxist theory"

Deletion of every one of the many argument in this section that the Communist states were related to Marxist theory. This is the single most important difference between our versions. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

There are no such arguments in your article. There are only arguments that Communist states deviated from Stalinist practices and were very different from each other. But non-Stalinist does not equal Marxist. And Marx did not give any clear directions for the organization of a workers' state, believing that advanced planning of a future society constituted the fallacy of "utopian socialism". -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Simply false, see the correct and referenced version which has numerous well-referenced arguments in this section that have been deleted without explanation, including Lenin quoting Marx and Engels. Ultramarine 18:06, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Precisely due to the vague nature of Marx' recommendations, it is possible to construct a wide variety of political and economic systems that fit in with what he said in selected quotes. In addition, not only is the link between Marx and Lenin disputed, but so is the link between Lenin and the subsequent Communist states. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:42, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The section "Human rights"

This section completely deleted, related to above Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Marx could not have rejected human rights, since the concept did not exist in his time. He specifically did not reject freedom, but claimed he wanted to augument it. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:58, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The section "Tabula Rasa"

This section completely deleted, related to above Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

There are no actual Marxist sources claiming that human nature is a tabula rasa; at the very least, there is no consensus among Marxists on the subject. You cite a secondary source making claims about the views of Marxists. This is unacceptable. Let the Marxists speak for themselves. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:58, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The section "Historical analysis"

This section completed excluded. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

This falls under criticisms of historical materialism. Your version of the article has many sections that are no more than a paragraph long. The collaborative version is more compact, with less headings. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:58, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pseudoscience

Excludes Popper's argument against central planning. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

It is only a sentence long and it will be added to the collaborative version. One question I have, however, is whether Popper argued against ideologies that claim to have any knowledge of the future, or merely against those that claim to have exact knowledge of the future. Some Marxists fall into the latter category, but most fall under the former, since they only claim to have a rough idea of what the future will be like. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:06, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Marx's predictions

Refusal to give a verifiable source for the very controversial statement that David Ricardo and John Stuart Mill would have agreed with most of Marx's predictions. Ultramarine 13:12, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

See iron law of wages. I'm not sure about John Stuart Mill, but David Ricardo certainly agreed that workers' wages would naturally drift to the subsistence level. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

That does certainly not mean that these two would have agreed with most of Marx predictions, such as a proletarian revolution or the development of monopolies or the development of two homogeneous classes or that all skilled workers would be replaced by machines. Ultramarine 18:08, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I think it would be more accurate to say that Marx agreed with some of their predictions (since they preceded him), and made a few more of his own. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:42, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Historical materialism

No mention of Max Stirner's argument against the philosophy of Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

It seems to be rather tangential to the issue. Marx was by no means a strict Hegelian (he rejected idealism in favor of materialism, for one thing), and drawing a straight line from Hegel to 20th century Communism is, frankly, absurd. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:42, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Labor theory of value

No mention of the criticism against Marx's statement that only labor can cause an increase in value. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Environment

False statement that many of the ecological problems continued unabated after the fall of the Soviet Union. The environmental situation has improved in every studied former Communist state. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

"Many" does not equal "all". There are certainly many ecological problems that continue unabated after the fall of the Soviet Union. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

You have given no sources for your claims. Again, the environmental situation has improved. Ultramarine 18:10, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Life expectancy

Excludes mentioning that life expectancy started to increase immediately after the fall of Communism in many Eastern European states. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Review your sources. From what I recall, they showed that life expectancy underwent a sharp decline after the fall of Communism, then started to recover around the mid 1990s and eventually reached and surpassed its 1989 levels in some of the former Communist countries. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I have examined my sources, the improvements started immediately in several of the Eastern European states. Ultramarine 18:18, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Living standards

Exclusion of the very poor living standards and health care in the Soviet Union. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Very poor compared to what? -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

See the referenced statements in the article. Ultramarine 18:18, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Economic growth under Stalin

No mention of the fabricated figures from the Stalin era, instead stating "dramatic advances, including rapid development of heavy industry during the 1930s in the Soviet Union". Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Do you deny that there was rapid development of heavy industry during the 1930s in the Soviet Union? -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

There were certainly some development, but as noted with source much of this was simply imaginary figures. Ultramarine 18:12, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cuba

States that Cuba is a comparatively successful communist state. No mention of the arguments against this. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Your version always ends any discussion with an anti-communist counter-counter-...-argument. I try to refrain from making paragraphs excessively long by introducing too many counter and counter-counter arguments, but I will do so if you leave me no choice. I would prefer, however, to end with a balanced look at both sides. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] East Germany

No mention of the continued decline in productivity under Communist rule. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I will check your sources and their precise claims. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Korea and China

No mention of the famines in North Korea and China as compared to the situation in South Korea, Taiwan, and Hong Kong. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

This may be included in a larger section on comparison controversies. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Terrorism

No mention of Communist support of terrorist groups. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

We have been over this. Criticisms of communism must remain specific to things that are unique to communism or at least more prevalent in communist societies than in others. Many governments have sponsored terrorism; and in any case, "terrorism" is a POV term. Their supporters call them freedom fighters. A neutral way to refer to them would be paramilitary organizations. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Science

False statement that pure science and military technology saw remarkable progress. At best, they were occasionally advanced. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

You are mistaken. Pure science and military technology did see remarkable progress in the Soviet Union, and there is ample evidence for this. I will go look for specific examples. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Numbers killed

No mention of the numbers given by the Black Book of Communism, by Yakovlev, or the estimated total of about one hundred million dead reached in several different overviews. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

There is no consensus among historians as to the exact numbers; the margin of error is immense. As such, "tens of millions" is the most accurate statement that can be made. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, one can be extremely accurate in citing exactly what sources estimate. We aren't here to do original research.--Silverback 17:31, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Certainly. I would welcome a paragraph that discussed various estimates without showing preference to any of them. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 17:52, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Why have you then deleted such information and a table with references that mention such estimates. Again, give sources for your claims. Ultramarine 18:16, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Because the table gives more weight to the numbers in the Black Book as opposed to any others. We must either have a table including numbers from all sources or no table at all. I'd go for the latter option. As for my claims, I am merely claiming that there are quite a few widely different estimates for the number of deaths in Communist states. This is evidently true from your own sources. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Czarist Russia

No mention that the human rights violations were less severe during that era compared to the Soviet Union.

Compared to the Soviet Union before 1956, that is. Your article gives the impression that Stalin-scale violations were carried out by all Soviet leaders, which is false. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Even after 1956, Soviets prohibiting emmigration even to the extent of shooting or imprisoning people trying to escape, in continued to suppress and censor the press, required papers and permissions to travel even within the country and supported other murderous regimes, including China and N. Vietnam. The Sovient Union itself remained a gulag of exploited captive labor, forced to work at wage levels set by the state, and not allowed to seek their market value elsewhere. --Silverback 17:30, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Restrictions on emigration are the least of the human rights violations that the Soviet Union has been accused of, and in any case both Czarist Russia and present day capitalist states hold strong barriers against the flow of people to or from the country (or both). "Murderous regimes" is POV. "Exploited captive labor" and the idea that market wages are better than state wages are also extremely POV. This article shall not become a libertarian rant like so many others on wikipedia. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 17:49, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Excuse me, I was writing on the "Talk:" page. "Restrictions on emigration are the least of the human rights violations that the Soviet Union has been accused of" is POV. Emmigration is the most basic right, and should have been important to the communists too, if they were at all ethical. If they had allowed emmigration, they could have claimed that the oppressed workers had consented to their rules by staying, i.e., they were voluntary members of the society. By not being a voluntary society, they make it clear they are an oppressive one.--Silverback 18:03, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Your argument is no excuse for deleting all the referenced information. Numerous violations certainly continued after Stalin, including executions and incarceration of political opponents, although on a much smaller scale. However, I will clarify the smaller scale. Ultramarine 18:27, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

That was my point: That Stalin, not the Soviet Union in general, was much worse than the Czars. Thank you for acknowledging it. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] WWII

No mention of the hope for another great war, the direct support for German rearmament, and prohibition of cooperation against Hitler when he took power. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

The Western powers also hoped for a war between Germany and the USSR. Stalin prohibited cooperation against Hitler without expecting this to lead to Hitler's rise to power, and Communists fought an ideological, political and occasionally military struggle against fascism throughout the 1930s. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Imperialism

Excludes mentioning many cases of imperialism by Communist states, most importantly those by Lenin's regime. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

"Imperialism" is POV. Anti-communists called it imperialism, but communists called it liberation. Same perspectives as with the American invasion of Iraq. If we mention the incidents, both POVs must be given. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Critics of communism

No mention of the many historians, economists, and philosophers who have criticized communism. Ultramarine 12:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Don't we have a list of anti-communists somewhere? If yes, we should link to it. If not, we might consider creating one. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The deleted well-referenced facts and arguments

There has been no objections to the "List of proposed changes III" above and now more than two weeks have passed since it was written. Therefore, I will shortly restore the currently deleted well-referenced facts unless there is referenced arguments against this. Please follow Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research, and Wikipedia: NPOV. I again invite factual discussions regarding the content, please avoid smear tactics and ad hominem. Ultramarine 02:35, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I shall put forward my arguments shortly. Please do not ignore the ongoing RfAr. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 06:47, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Ultramarine, the superior version is not automatically the one with the largest number of footnotes. In this case the version that you were working on in your sandbox would be a good research paper, but would not work as an encyclopedic entry. "Criticisms of communism" are supposed to be the subject of the article, not necessarily the source for the article. The article is supposed to describe and summarize these criticisms in a fair and neutral manner, as opposed to turning the article itself into something that falls under the category of these criticisms. 172 07:38, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

No examples, no references, no attempt to respond to the "List of proposed changes". I will shortly restored the deleted well-referenced facts unless factual, referenced explanations for the deletions of well-referenced facts are given. Ultramarine 08:08, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

As alluded to on Wikipedia:Content forking, "Criticism of X" titles are inherently non-neutral, because they present the debate one-sidedly and imply that the only discussion of a subject is negative. See Talk:Criticism of Christianity#Rendering_this_article_neutral for the many examples of where "Criticism of X" articles have become perennial and unresolvable neutrality disputes, and a discussion of how to address this. Uncle G 03:38, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm by no-means on the same side of the fence politically as Ultramarine, but I agree that if you have a "Criticism of X" article, then, the POV argument goes out the window. I wouldn't expect to see pro-capitalist arguments on the Anti-capitalism page. Camillus^{talk|contribs} 09:50, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

There are no arguments at all on that page... And it is certainly against wiki policy to have an article with one-sided POV. Any "criticisms of X" article should focus on the arguments against X, of course, but it should present both the supporters' and opponents' views on those arguments. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 14:44, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

It should be noted that there are many "criticisms" articles, especially for political ideologies: [2]. The other side have previously expressed that the size of the article makes it impossible to incorporate in the communism article. Initially it was 172 who created this article and moved the original content here. However, if someone has a better solution, please state it so we can discuss it. Ultramarine 13:19, 8 December 2005 (UTC)