Talk:Creativity Movement
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[edit] Forum
[edit] ben klassen
There's now a separate entry for Ben Klassen - I moved details of his suicide there. Also tidied some grammar. Need an entry for the Creativity Movement (if there's anything to say about it). David Gerard 17:34, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)
[edit] survival,expansion,advancement
It is dedicated to the "survival, expansion, and advancement of the White Race exclusively". White supremacy what else can it be ? Ericd
Ah, but the best way to fight hate is witn information. See the little changes I've made so far -- which, as far as I know, consist solely of the truth. -- Modemac
"We completely reject the Judeo-democratic-Marxist values of today and supplant them with new and basic values, of which race is the foundation." Maybe Nazi ? Ericd
I like the red and black flag. Ericd
They are neo-Nazis which argue that Hitler should have united with the English and Americans against the mud races. They obviously are, and admit to being, white racist supremacists. Vera Cruz
I notice that there is no mention of the fact that the "Church" has been sued for misuse of the name Church of the Creater, which belongs to a mainstream religious organization. Nor to the fact that Hale was recently arrested for plotting to murder the judge in the trademark infringement suit. -- Zoe
- Any additional information on the above would be greatly appreciated!
- The Los Angeles Times had a story on this last week (week of 1-5-03) with inflamatory remarks by Hale, but I don't remember enough of the story to quote, and don't have a copy of the paper. Sorry. --Two Halves
Hale has also lost his license to practice law. Vera Cruz
- He never got his license. Though he passed the bar, the state that he was in refused to grant him his law license because of their dislike of his "morality". -- Zoe
[edit] manifesto
Do we have to have this lengthy manifesto of the World Church of the Creator ? It would be better to rephrase it - "the World Church of the Creator followers claim...", "the World Church of the Creator followers deny..." etc. The listing of their propaganda amounts simply to hatespeech.
Kpjas 17:35 3 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I put in a disclaimer, in response to the above comment. If you feel that the disclaimer is unnecessary, feel free to edit it or remove it. --Modemac 19:28 3 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Free speech should be allowed - when you start to determine what is okay and what is not, then you no longer have free speech. As Ben Smith once said "Hate speech = Free speech". --eigthlegion
Exactly. We have presented the other side of the story. Fight fire with fire they say. The neutral version is we are an organization that has been persecuted relentlessly for offering an alternative. Therefore, we relentlessly promote it.--Bro.Snow
[edit] creativity movement
The organisation's name is now the Creativity Movement. Should the article be moved there and this be made a redirect? - David Gerard 13:35, Jan 14, 2004 (UTC)
- Done. — No-One Jones (talk) 12:11, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
[edit] different COTC
Just a note, the first external link 'Church of the Creator' is to a very different religious organization, some kind of hippy Christian fringe group who espouse 'Uniting the Family of Mankind' combined with some Native American ideas. Definitely not the bunch of racists referred to in the main article.
- whoops! Fixed - David Gerard 12:02, Jan 17, 2004 (UTC)
[edit] number
Anybody have any information concerning the number of members/adherents? [[User:Rhymeless|Rhymeless | (Methyl Remiss)]] 08:26, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Doctrine of the organization
The section titled "Doctrine of the organization" seems to be a random collection of text, rather than a definitive doctrine. There's specific source given for the quotations, and Goggle, amkes it appear as if they had been plucked from here and there. I see there are "16 Commandments" that we could quote a few of and summarize the rest. I think that makes more sense than this list of anonymous pithy sayings. -Willmcw 03:57, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I don't think the article needs the entire thing spelled out as it looks like it is pushing an agenda and might be a copyvio. I think something along the lines of "The Creativity Movement's basic beliefs are spelled out in their offical 16 Commandments" with an external link to the source would more than suffice. Barring objection in the next few days I'll make the change. NeoFreak 08:24, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] commentary
i've done a lot of research on creativity. it is white supremacist in the most literal possible sense of the term.
a lot of it's doctrines are obviously derived from older ideologies, and are shared by other ideologies that aren't necessarily racially oriented at all.
vegetarianism. veganism. raw foodism (rawism).
"cooked food is unnatural"- definitely NOT unique to them.
obviously, other ideologies promote atheism and materialism (in the sense of denying anything spiritual, the position that matter is the sum total of existence, not the sitting in a hot tub, eating fish eggs, drinking champagne sense of materialism).
Gringo300 05:03, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Animated Flag
Do we really need to have the flag on the page be animated/waving? Is their a reason this is so? This page seems to be unique in being granted the privelege to have a animated picture representing the group. Why not just a static flag? Seems like if we were wanting to go to extreme care an static flag would also be best for those with poor eyesight. -CasualEditor 02:55, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Actually Creators don't even know what it is!! The W is supposed to stand for the word "White" as in White Race, evry specific you think considering some WHite nations such as France and Russia would not use W, and they claim that their ultimate goal is to implement the Latin Language for all White people to end this ethno-centricity. The word for White in Latin does not start with a W..................WCOTC are illiterate idiots who can't even be consistent with their own doctrines.
[edit] doesn't deny holocaust...
the wcotc doesn't deny the holocaust, in fact, i've seen them criticize hitler and the holocaust for "killing many whites"... also, you cannot group them as a fascist or a neo-nazi group, since they are neither. there is a difference between white supremacism, fascism, and national socialism (nazism). they say on one of their sites (rahowa.net) that they "are not nazis, since they have killed so many whites"... they go on to list examples (Poles, French, Czechs, et cetera).
- Ben Klassen, found of the movement, wrote in his WHITE MAN’S BIBLE:
- Holocaust Claims a Fantastic Lie. The facts are these: There were only 500,000 Jews in Germany when Hitler came to power. Most of these migrated to the U.S. before 1939. There were never more than 3 million Jews in all the territory that Hitler’s armies occupied during the entire war, so it was of course physically impossible for them to have killed six million. As already stated, there is not a shred of evidence that the Germans ever proposed, sanctioned, or contemplated such a policy of exterminations.
- On that basis it seems reasonable to say that the Creativity Movement denies the Holocaust. -Will Beback 23:12, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
You seem to forget that he doesn't deny it, but say that it happened to a lesser extent. There is a difference there.
Also, as I've said before, the WCOTC is NOT a neo-nazi movement, yet I am still baffled by how we seem to have this under the "fascist" category...
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- He says the Holocaust is a lie, that's denial. -Will Beback 23:44, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
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- Fascism isn't restricted to Nazis. Anyone who was familiar with the term would know that, and easily recognize that this group falls into that category. 24.126.199.129 10:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] What's all this about police informants?
In this section, the last paragraph cites no sources, nor can I find any mention of this Adam Hanson fellow other than here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Slippered sleep (talk • contribs) 22:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC).
- I'm very "iffy" on most of this article. If you have an issue with any unsoucred material or assertions than go ahead and pull it. It's not you responsibility to fact check other people's inclusions, it is their responsibility. NeoFreak 13:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Melton
Excerpt of the source I added:
Expert: Hatreds rooted in poverty don't thrive here The Telegram & Gazette Worcester, MA 9.7.1999 By Kathleen A. Shaw (...) Property values in the Bay State are too high, said J. Gordon Melton, a professor at the University of California at Santa Barbara, who has done extensive research on such groups. (...) "It's a real church," Melton said. But members don't believe in God. "They are atheists," he said. The term "creator" refers to themselves. "We are our own creator," is their belief, Melton said, noting that Smith was once the group's "Creator of the Month" for his efforts in handing out hate literature. (...)
Note: J. Gordon Melton is regarded as a cult apologist. Nevertheless, he is often quoted as an "expert", so his opinion is relevant here IMO. --Tilman 16:10, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
