Talk:Creation science

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[edit] REMINDER

This talk page is to discuss the text, photographs, format, grammar, etc of the article itself and not the inherent worth of Creation Science. See WP:NOT

Where do we do this? For the article to be accurate it must be discussed. If a single POV is assumed then the article can never be unbiased or completely accurate. w00tboy 04:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Totally agree, W00tboy. It's much better to read why someone changed the wikipedia entry in talk rather than slogging through the article's history. --Menswear 15:16, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Archives

Still relevant discussions are linked to as well.

Archive 1 - March 2005 - (#Creationism is not science)

Archive 2 - April 2005 - (#Pseudoscience)

Archive 3 - May 2005 - (#Creation science is not natural science or social science)

Archive 4 - June 2005 - (#Massive Edit)

Archive 5 - June 2005

Archive 6 - July 2005

Archive 7 - 25/7/5

Archive 8 - August 2005

Archive 9 - August 2005, refractoring

Archive 10 - September 2005 - (#'Creation science is not science'; Fact or View)

Archive 11 - June 2006

Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Creation science

Talk:Scientific creationism (article was merged into this)

[edit] In these archives,

It has been suggested in these archives,

The following statements were discussed, not the result of the discussion.

that creation science claims creation is directly observable;

/Archive 10#CS assumes Creation is observable

/Archive 10#CS does not argue that Creation is observable

/Archive 10#Dan's unexplained reversions

/Archive 10#observed

/Archive 9#Fallacy in intro
that creation science is not a creationist ploy

/Archive 8

/Archive 1#Creation Science as propaganda
that creation science is not science;

/Archive 10#'Creation science is not science'; Fact or View

/Archive 10#Yet another vague interpretation of NPOV?

/Archive 10#Creation Science advocates disagree whether CS is science

/Archive 8#another entry

/Archive 5#What is the story of creation?

/Archive 4#Creation 'science'

/Archive 3#Science and empiricism - Pseudoscience

/Archive 3#Creation science is not natural science or social science

/Archive 2#Pseudoscience

/Archive 1#Disbelieve

/Archive 1#Creationism is not science
that science cannot allow for the supernatural

/Archive 5#supernatural
that the title is POV, as it suggests CS is science

/Archive 9#Incorrect title?

/Archive 9#Oh Puleeeeze!

/Archive 9#Request for comments: What's in a name? POV or SPOV?

/Archive 11#Non-science disclaimer
that criticism should be relegated to a seperate article or section;

/Archive 10#Separate Page for Criticisms?
that since evolution is not heavily criticised in its article, neither should CS be;

/Archive 9
that since no-one is trained to be a creation scientist, the term does not, should not exist

/Archive 9

[edit] Cut from article

Listed as one of "the objections to creation science by mainstream scientists:"

Creation science is not based upon controlled, repeatable experiments : That Creationism is not based upon controlled, repeatable experiments stems not from the theory itself, but from the phenomena that it tries to explain.

The text behind is the objection seems to seek to ridicule the objection, as the alternative theory to the formation of the universe, the Big Bang, likewise deals with a singular event. It may be vandalism that was not removed (note the capitalised Creationism). Perhaps someone could replace the comment, with something along the lines of 'Creation Science explanations of, for example, the deluge, often assume atmospheric conditions and material properties that have not been recreated.' The point being that the Big Bang is recreated in simulations and high energy experimentation, while CS simply postulates things along the lines of 'a big layer of ice, up in the sky'. I apologise for my harsh tone. -- Ec5618 15:04, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I had not realized that plasmas with densities and temperatures of Big Bang proportions had been created in high-energy experimentation. What reference is there to such results? Dan Watts 17:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

You can check out the Wikipedia articles on the subjects. Particle physics and physical cosmology are good starts. Especially the area of big bang nucleosynthesis (though this article is in need of expansion). --ScienceApologist 19:50, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Except maybe the Big Bang"

Moved from User talk:Ec5618#Creation Science [1]

Anti-Vandal? I don't appreciate the inference. Dan Watts 20:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe I inferred a thing. I used pop-ups to revert to the last version by AntiVandalBot. For the record, I reverted the unexplained removal of a section by an anonymous user, and the line you restored. Since many uninformed users seem to believe that science is treating creationism unfairly, adding a line speculating that the Big Bang is supernatural seems unwise and unnecessary, especially in parentheses (as an afterthought). -- Ec5618 21:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you stating that even though physics has (almost) nothing to say concerning the origin of the Big Bang, that a supernatural cause is rejected because of the evidence? Dan Watts 23:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm saying that physics may well have a lot to say regarding the origin of the Big Bang. The inability of scientists to figure out exactly what it has to say in not evidence of anything. Including speculation such as this (again, in parentheses, no less) is quite unnecessary.

"Adding supernatural entities to the equation is not strictly necessary to explain events" We may as well add "(except for voodoo and tarot, maybe)". The line makes the point that the Big Bang may well be explained through natural entities, suggesting (from a scientific point of view) that supernatural causes needn't be invoked, and thus that a supernatural cause violates parsimony. -- Ec5618 05:05, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

See Conservation of energy for a problem with propagating the Big Bang back before time = 0. Physics can have nothing definite to say about this. Physics works rather well after t=0. I don't see the violation of parsimony in the region t<0. Dan Watts 14:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

And I'm not arguing with you. Current physics works quite well after t≈0. The problem is that the paragraph to which you added the text deals with common objections to creation science, one of which is that creation science supposedly fails parsimony. The reasoning being that all the things creation science seeks to attribute to the christian deity can or may actually be explained perfectly well by science without the need for divine intervention.

Now, your addition suggests that there may be things that cannot be explained through science, which is a reasonable supposition. It is however quite irrelevant. Parsimony states that science should avoid overly complex solutions, when simpler solutions exist. In that context, creation science fails, as it posits an immensely complex entity.

Note that I'm not arguing that the Big Bang is currently explained by science, nor that anyone can be certain that it will be. My point is that there is no need to posit a supernatural entity as an explanation just yet. There is no need to rule out a future scientific explanation. Your suggestion that the Big Bang may be supernatural in origin is out of place, irrelevant, and original research. -- Ec5618 14:53, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I will address your points in reverse order:

Original research - [2][3][4][5][6]
Irrelevant - "In the beginning, God created ...." seems simple to me, even parsimonius. The solution is simple. The subject is infinitely complex.
Out of place - Where would you propose the pros and cons of the subject be displayed?

Dan Watts 16:04, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

And in the original order again:

'Out of place.' Do you honestly believe the ideal place for this line is in a list marked "A summary of the objections to creation science by mainstream scientists"?
'Irrelevant.' A main point of the concept of parsimony is to suggest that things should be explained within the framework of the natural world. Certainly, all things can be explained by suggesting a supernatural entity had a hand in it. But remember that we already have a solid scientific framework in place. Adding another layer of reality, a supernatural layer, is overly complex.
'Original research.' Perhaps the term original research does not apply as obviously as I would have hoped. Still, the addition is a little difficult to justify. The Big Bang qualifies as possibly unexplainable by science. True. The same appies to tarot reading, ESP, ghosts, etc. Adding the Big Bang, specifically, as a great unknown in the sciences is rather odd. Consider, again, that there is no need to posit a supernatural entity as an explanation just yet. There is no reason to add it specifically. -- Ec5618 20:50, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

'Out of place.' - It does discuss the soundness of the objections. (However I would have no problem with moving the discussion to an area mutually deemed appropriate.)
'Irrelevant.' "... Occam's razor is not an objective comparison method, and merely reflects the subject's prior beliefs." Occam's razor
'Original research.' How much more germaine to the subject of creation could the Big Bang be? What is the yet that must happen for the positing of the supernatural?

Dan Watts 02:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe we are still seriously discussing this. I removed a short blurb, as it didn't make sense. Scientists do not object to creation science because they feel it deals with an event as supernatural as the Big Bang. Now, if you'd like to suggest a way of improving the article, please do. Until then, I quote myself: "Adding another layer of reality, a supernatural layer, is overly complex" (from a scientific point of view, of course). -- Ec5618 06:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Creation science violates the principle of parsimony : Creationism fails to pass Occam's razor. Many explanations offered by creation science are more complex than alternative explanations. Parsimony favours explanations without redundant parts. Invoking a supernatural entity, when natural explanations exist, is overly complex.

The last line obviously needs work, but part of the reason parsimony is invoked is to suggest the supernatural as a whole violates parsimony, while the current text suggests the only objection is to the vapour canopy and such overly complex contructions. -- Ec5618 20:28, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a reference is in order showing that the supernatural is disallowed by fiat. "... Occam's razor is not an objective comparison method, and merely reflects the subject's prior beliefs." Occam's razor Dan Watts 01:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

There should be some description of why a supernatural description is a redundant part forthcoming if the statement containing it is to remain. Dan Watts 02:55, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

So, we have two opposing concepts: one in which the universe was formed through some unknown natural thing, and another in which it was formed by a supernatural deity. Both are equally practically useful, as they have the same explantory power. Now, if we assume that 'unknown natural thing' is less complex than 'supernatural God' (which most people would agree on, surely), then parsimony favours the first theory, as it is less complex, and has the same explanatory power. The formation of the world without God is indistinguishable from the formation of the world by God, so there is no reason to assume the existance or action of a God. -- Ec5618 06:42, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

So, if a "Garden of Eden" configuration (one which had no previous state possible) was found in the universe, would you still say parsimony favors some unknown natural explanation over a supernatural one? (Is there no possible situation in which a supernatural explanation would be favorable?) Dan Watts 22:30, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean? What configuration?

I had believed I had been quite clear. If two explanations exist, and one is more complex than the other, but both have equal explanatory power, parsimony favours the least complex explanation. Whether there may be a situation in which a supernatural explanation would be favoured over a natural explanation is hardly the issue here, though I can understand it may be an interesting philosophical issue. For the sake of argument then. Parsimony favours the least complex explanation. Out of two supernatural explanations, the least complex will be favoured. A less complex natural explanation may well be favoured over it, though. -- Ec5618 00:13, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking of a galactic version of a Garden of Eden pattern using e.g. stellar positions and velocities . Dan Watts 01:09, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

So, when subjected to specific rules and succesive steps of modification, patterns change. Garden of Eden patterns are patterns that cannot emerge from such succesive steps of modification. This assumes however that rather specific and knowable rules exist. In the real world, we can't be certain that we know all the rules, making any uncontestable example of a Garden of Eden pattern unlikely. I'm not sure how you would imagine a galactic Garden of Eden pattern. And quite frankly, I fail to see the relevance. Should we perhaps move this discussion back to my Talk page? -- Ec5618 08:32, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Explanation

At a more fundamental level, from a scientific viewpoint the supernatural inherently posits something which is outside nature and undetectable, and since its means are undetectable they are not susceptible to scientific observation or analysis. By explaining everything, the supernatural explains nothing. Kenneth R. Miller makes this point 36 minutes into the BBC Horizon programme A War on Science (google video). If we come across a planet with two naked people and a talking snake, the faith position is that this proves Genesis, so we should stop investigating. The scientific position is that now we have testable evidence, we can start trying out natural explanations. Even if we can't prove it wasn't created by the FSM, that doesn't mean that it was, it just means that we don't know; yet. ...dave souza, talk 10:12, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cut link

[7], as a reference for:

Subsequently, advocates of Creation Science have expanded their critiques into biology and cosmology. However, efforts to have it legislated to be taught in schools in the United States were eventually halted by the Supreme Court's interpretation of the First amendment in Edwards v. Aguillard 1987.

-- Ec5618 15:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Scientific Support For Darwinism

Some people may want to have a look at this recently created article. AfD?-- Ec5618 19:28, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

A useful article, related to other responses to the A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism petition claiming support for ID. ..dave souza, talk 14:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree, now. When I first saw it, it was horrible though ([8]), and I couldn't see the point of this article. In fact, I found the article quite unreadable. It's since been cleaned up a bit. It doesn't deserve AfD. -- Ec5618 15:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Rabbits in the Precambrian."

The quotes from Dawkins and Haldane hardly make a strong case for evolution's falsifiability. Evolutionists remain unable to adequately explain how the Cambrian phyla came into existence, due to a lack of evolutionary ancestors. So, therefore, why do the Cambrian forms not fulfill the role of Haldane's "rabbit" and subsequently falsify evolution? XerKibard

There are fossils that predate the cambrien explosion. Furthermore, the fossils closly mirror the morphologies that would become predominant during the explosion.
- Physics, chemistry, and geology have explained why there are so few fossils before the Cambrian explosion. It is not that organisms did not exist, but rather that these organisms did not leave good fossils.
Developmental evolutionary biology (with the discovery of Hox genes and the genetic basis of the metazoan body plan) is starting to explain the evolutionary basis for the cambrien explosion.--Roland Deschain 22:42, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copy editing, etc

I did some copyediting (mostly for grammar, spelling and style, although some were for accuracy), and converted external links to refs to streamline the article. •Jim62sch• 12:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Issues in creation science" / "Metaphysical assumptions"

Cut text:

Critics of each approach consider the to be religious, rather than scientific, because it stems from faith in the Bible, rather than by the application of the scientific method. The United States National Academy of Sciences (NAS), has noted, "Religious opposition to evolution propels antievolutionism. Although antievolutionists pay lip service to supposed scientific problems with evolution, what motivates them to battle its teaching is apprehension over the implications of evolution for religion." ^[1]

The section didn't balance the similar problems between creation theory and evolution thoery in terms of presumptions and limitations of employing the scientific method.

It would be good to introduce the text along with a corresponding statement about the desire to avoid submission to God as a motivation for evolution theory from the NAS (or other org, if NAS hasn't addressed the issue). Likewise, balancing text dealing with the religious aspect of evolution theory was missing.

Heavily edited text:

In some areas of science, for example chemistry, meteorology or medicine, the default assumptions of a naturalistic universe and uniformitarianism are not considered problematic to creation science proponents. As a matter of principle, creation science advocates single out only those scientific theories that they have determined are most in conflict with their beliefs, and it is against those theories that they concentrate their efforts.

The text missed the main point of scientific areas that not related to origins are not in scope of creation science by definition. Also, the text is not true, e.g. radioactive dating is an aspect of chemistry where advocates of evolution and creation science disagree.

--Ed Brey 03:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely not. The claim that somehow evolution stems from a desire to reject a deity is false, POV and a classic creationist canard in any event. See theistic evolution among other problems. JoshuaZ 03:44, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you in part, since the motivations of people vary. Likewise, the motivation listed by the NAS applies only to a subset of proponents of Creation Science. Since there are partial motivations on both sides, what balanced text would you recommend? I believe we can do better than to just revert to what was there. --Ed Brey 04:12, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I doubt the motivation listed by NAS refers only to a subset -- creationism very much cares about theology as that is its basis. Science, however, is agnostic: it does not care whether there is no god, one god or twenty gods as the existence or non-existence of a diety/dieties is irrelevant to the phenomenon(a) being studied. •Jim62sch• 11:50, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Part of the controversy that should be incorporated are the difficulties that mainstream science has with being agnostic, e.g. uniformitarianism. Perhaps a good way to sum it up is that many evolutionists don't blindly assume uniformitarianism to be true, but rather deduce it from their understanding of the evidence; likewise, creationists don't assume the Bible to be true, but deduce it from their understanding of the evidence. Thoughts? --Ed Brey 13:34, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

You only raised an issue regarding the motivation aspect. Do you have any issue with the other edits? --Ed Brey 04:12, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

There were some technical errors in your attempted edits. For example, radiometric dating is really a matter of the central limit theorem, quantum tunneling associated with the weak force, and generally nuclear physics, not chemistry. It is arguable as to what exactly relates to "origins" and what doesn't. Generally, creation science advocates have tied their hands behind their back so much with regards to idealizing origins that they don't realize what relates and what doesn't. The natural abundance of isotopes is a good example -- untouched by creationists but an incredible bit of evidence regarding origins. What creationists do uniformly reject is any attempt to make time-based extrapolations based on currently measured and observed phenomena. That's not an "origins" dispute, that's a uniformitarian dispute. --ScienceApologist 14:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the fundimental dispute is one of uniformitarian. But does not the the conclusion one draws regarding uniformitarian quickly lead to evidence interpretations regarding origins?

I disagree with the statement that creation science advocates have tied their hands behind their back and would respectfully submit that the assertion is ad hominim. Many of the advocates are simply combining evidence that supports Biblical inerrency with evidence that supports young earth creation; however, neither are specified a priori, but rather deduced from what is observable. --Ed Brey 18:49, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

It is arguable, for example, that the global flood is an interpretation of origins. The unifying feature of creation science arguments are that they accept supernatural accounts of the scripture. What creation science advocates specifically take issue with are the "controversies" surrounding the miraculous accounts which defy the observed laws and theories of science (mostly creation and the flood). If the bible is literally true then the observed laws and theories of science must be wrong. The easiest way for creation science advocates to dispute science then is to dispute uniformitarian assumptions since allowing for a deus ex machina to act in history removes the skeptical barriers and they can continue with their literal interpretations unimpeded. That the subjects are conflated with the subject of "origins" is an accident of the biblical narratives themselves (since the writers of the bible take origins to be one of the subjects), and is not a critique of particular parts of science because, when faced with the science that doesn't contradict the bible, the creation science advocate accepts scientific explanations as a matter of course. In order for the creation science advocate to arrive at these conclusions they must necessarily accept a literalism a priori that extends beyond the conceits of science summarized most succinctly by Frank Bacon. --ScienceApologist 19:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Creation science advocates accept as a matter of course those scientific explanations which can be verified through scientific experimentation. Since we are bound by time, this limits us to understanding and accepting "laws" as they are observable in the present context and from what we can piece together from extent evidence. Creation science advocates question broad extrapolation of all laws, not just those of those pertaining to origins. To them, the inconvenient complexity of nonuniformity is reason to abandon neither the scientific method nor the possibility of nonuniformity, since we know that there are long stretches of relatively uniform time that are amenable to scientific experimentation. The reason that certain laws become areas of focus is not that they are exclusively to be questioned, but that they are most interesting, since they help explain the plate tectonics, meteorology, etc. needed to provide a plausible explanation of interesting matters such as origins. If the advocates found evolution theory to be without flaw, they would have no need and hence less interest in nonuniformity.

What about the Bible? The creation science advocates hold that if we were smart enough, we would come to the same conclusion of origins with or without the Bible. However, they gladly accept as a guide what they believe on the basis of historical evidence to be an inerrant text (an evolutionist would too, if he thought he had one). This does not make the science any less valid, since it is still subject to scrutiny without the guide.

--Ed Brey 03:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your essay in terms of describing what creation science advocates propose. The article neutrally describes this as is. --ScienceApologist 07:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Units

Lets see how many times we can switch from English to Biblical to SI...For instance, since Mount Everest is approximately 5.5 miles in elevation and the Earth's surface is approximately 200 million square miles in area, to cover Mount Everest to the depth of 15 cubits as indicated by Genesis 7:20 would require 1.1 billion cubic miles of water. The Earth's atmosphere, however, only has the capacity to store water in vapor form sufficient to blanket the globe to a depth of 25 millimeters. Nevertheless, there continue to be many creationists who argue that the flood can explain the fossil record and the evidence from geology and paleontology that are often used to dispute creationists' claims. In addition to the above ideas that are in opposition to the principles of geology, advocates of flood geology reject uniformitarianism and the findings of radiometric dating. The Creation Research Society argues that "uniformitarianism is wishful thinking." [15] One creation science global Flood model is based on the concept of Catastrophic Plate Tectonics (CPT) (as developed by ICR/CRS scientists). Seventy percent of the Earth is covered by water to a depth of approximately 3km. If this water were distributed evenly across the planet it would cover the Earth to a depth of 2km. (Shall we be consistent, friends, or shall we let this kind of shoddiness permeate our Wikipedia? Asked rhetorically of course.) Paul 04:47, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting! This should be edited to make it more consistent. I don't mind it all in yards and miles. Anyone that can't convert can always ask Google in plain english to convert; as in this example "convert 15 cubits to metres" returns the answer as the top result. ^ross ^nixon 08:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, rossnixon, "American units are used the most in the english language"? Australia and the UK use the metric system, and in the US it is often used in science. Considering that India and such countries also make heavy use of the English language, I don't think "American units" are used the most. Also, yards and miles are not the easiest units to use in calculations, though it seems we don't actually go into the calculation and merely state the answer to such a calculation. Kilometers and miles are often used together in these cases.

In any case, I disagree that we should expect readers to use Google to understand the article. -- Ec5618 08:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I've replaced all the units with the International System of Units mendated units. As a scientists, I have nightmares about the poor students in the US having to deal with the imperial system: quick how many yards in 1.689 miles. That becomes a breeze with the metric system (how many meters in 1.689km).--Roland Deschain 05:13, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not a good article

It says that this topic is not a good article. Is there a link to a page where that decision was made? If not, can we start a to-do list get this article up to that level.--Roland Deschain 06:00, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

There probably is, but it's miles from here. ;) Seriously, I'm not sure where those decisions are archived, but I agree with you and think we should get this back up to GA standards. BTW, had the Who listened to you we would have had "I can see for Kilometers and kilometers" which just wouldn't have had the same ring. :) •Jim62sch• 20:13, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, if anybody can find the major objections of why this was removed, it would be greatly appreciated. I've tried to look through the archives with little luck. I'll wait a coupole of days for somebody to dig up the reasons why this is not a good article; if nobody comes up with those reasons, I'll renominate this article, effectivly forcing objections be be stated (which can then be discussed).--Roland Deschain 23:09, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

That works for me. •Jim62sch• 00:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's the delisting discussion: [9] --ScienceApologist 14:56, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, SA. •Jim62sch• 15:23, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unbalaced Arguments

For a theory to qualify as scientific it must be: • consistent (internally and externally) • parsimonious (sparing in proposed entities or explanations) • useful (describing and explaining observed phenomena) • empirically testable and falsifiable • based upon controlled, repeatable experiments • correctable and dynamic (changing to fit with newly discovered data) • progressive (achieving all that previous theories have and more) • tentative (admitting that it might not be correct rather than asserting certainty)

Why is this not used to test the theory of evolution?

For a theory to qualify as scientific it must be: • consistent (internally and externally) --I do not believe this to be the case for evolution, but this is neither the time nor place to discuss. • parsimonious (sparing in proposed entities or explanations) • useful (describing and explaining observed phenomena) • empirically testable and falsifiable --5 of the 6 types of evolution, i.e. all but microevolution, are not observable and cannot be tested. • based upon controlled, repeatable experiments --What experiments have been done that confirm evolution? I've heard of a few being done but none with definitive answers. • correctable and dynamic (changing to fit with newly discovered data) • progressive (achieving all that previous theories have and more) • tentative (admitting that it might not be correct rather than asserting certainty) --Evolution is the most asserted as correct of anything I have ever heard.

w00tboy 04:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Talk pages are for discussing the article and improvements. All your objections are inappropriate unless there is some particular phrase/sentence/paragraph/cite/nuance/bit of layout/ambiguity that you can quote from the text to which your comments apply. As it is, you haven't done so (you haven't even listed particular bits of the modern synthesis you think are lacking), so this is entirely unfounded.
This is not the talk page of the evolution article. If there were some specific objection, I'd recommend you take it there. Since there isn't, it's not even relevant to the evolution talk page. Probably best to post something (with some substance, evidence, particulars added) to talk.origins.
You haven't really looked very hard, have you? Try here[10].
If there are some specific things about evolution or the scientific method that currently baffle you, I am personally happy to talk about it on my talk page.

Tez 13:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lack of science in Creation Science

While there are branches of science called (for example) biological science, environmental science and physical science (chemistry and physics), there is no such branch called 'creation science'. One cannot attend a university and achieve a BSc in Creation Science. This is primarily because the scientific method cannot be applied to the idea that God created the earth. Creationists believe their god to be inerrant. There's no room for empirical experimentation - it all must lead toward God having created everything. I have thus altered the first sentence to dismiss any illusions that 'Creation Science" is a branch of science. --Menswear 15:44, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 43% of scientists, polled anonymously, believe in Creation, according to ICR

According to a 2005 poll by the Creation Research Institute, 43% of scientists believe in Creation. More than half of astronomers believe in Creation. Creation science cannot be grouped with hollow-earth theory, ufology, or other such theories, which very few if any scientists support.

Creation science, indeed, is not a branch of science. Rather, it is an approach to science, just as evolution is an approach to science. Creation scientists do not get their research published in peer-reviewed journals only because the journals will not accept the research. It is a circulus in probando to say that "Creation science is not scientific because it does not receive press in peer-reviewed journals, and it does not receive press in peer-reviewed journals because it is not scientific."

Some creationists consider the entire origins debate to be outside the realm of science proper, and being better described as philosophy. No one alive today saw God create everything, and no one alive today saw everything evolve. Someone has to decide what interpretation of the evidence to believe. Although the pure scientific method cannot be applied to the idea that God created the earth, neither can it be applied to the idea that the earth came about as a process of planetary evolution, 4 to 5 billion years ago.

Furthermore, creation science does have branches that are based on empirical research and experimentation. These include baraminology. Baraminology research has even been published in a peer-reviewed journal a few years ago (I forget which one). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.19.229.29 (talk) 19:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

Do you have a link to the ICR poll? I would like to see more info, thanks. ^ross ^nixon 00:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be unwise to regard this organisation as a reliable source of such data. Jefffire 16:33, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

All we need is the date, the sample size, the selection method and the exact question. ^ross ^nixon 00:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Some more telling stats: From a PRO creationism site "Surveys of scientists found 5 % believe that ‘humans were created in their current form less than 10,000 years ago." Answers in Genesis Confirmation - Fairness And Accuracy For All 01:16, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Do not confuse Creation with Creation Science. I can believe perfectly well that 43% of scientists believe in Creation, the broad definition that is used by the mainstream churches i.e. the idea that God created the world. I do not believe for a moment that this proportion of Church leaders, let alone scientists, believe in Creation Science. Trishm 00:55, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. Most scientists who are also religious are quite capable of grasping the concept of theistic evolution. It would naturally be the most compelling and desirable solution to a scientific mind, seeing as how there is no inherent dichotomy or contradiction between creationism and evolution. Cheers, Kasreyn 23:04, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article cannot call Creation science scientific.

There is no problem with describing the creation science position until you get to the point where CS is described as a science, where CS does not meet the current definition of a science.

The moment CS is described as a science, the ["policy on reliable sources"] kicks in.

"Claims not supported or claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view in the relevant academic community" applies directly here.

CS may be perfectly true, but no matter how much discussion takes place on these pages, we are precluded from asserting CS is a science. Trishm 01:08, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Where is CS described as a science? It is not a branch of science. However, Creationist scientists do use the scientific method; e.g. to find evidence that radiometric dating methods are flawed; as in the RATE Project[11]. ^ross ^nixon 06:39, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

.. to use the methods and empirical practices of science to support their side of the creation-evolution controversy.

Ross, when you replace the statement saying there is no controversy in the scientific community, to creationists "supporting their side of the controversy", together with creationists using the scientific method, you have called Creation Science a science by association with evolution. You have also implied that there is a controversy about evolution within science, which there is not.

There is a conflict between creationists and evolution, and this conflict is not scientific. Calling it a controversy is actually misleading, but its out there in the public domain, so there isn't much a Wikipedian can do about the name. We can probably find common ground by restoring the line about the scientific consensus.Trishm 07:08, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

When I started editing, I realised that a better way was to leave most of the paragraph alone, not to indroduce evolution at the start (it is quite separate anyway), and just make sure that the impression of creation science being a valid science was corrected. If I am wrong, and the attempts are not unsuccessful, I would be delighted to discuss them. I just want the article to be correct, I'm not trying to beat Creationists into the ground. Trishm 07:25, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Trishm, the article already begins that this is an attempt to use the scientific method... This is a NPOV statement, and neither implies that the attempt is successful or not so far successful. This criticism from the majority of the scientific community can come later in the article, after the definition. ^ross ^nixon 00:46, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

RossNixon, the article you referenced above is not a verifiable source. The article was never pee-reviewed. There is no problem with radiometric dating according to 99.99999999% of all articles that have studied the procedure. If you're going to make a case that Creationists use "scientific" methods, you've got a long way to go. Please read [scientific method], so that you might present a more accurate discussion of what makes science. Orangemarlin 00:46, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality

This article appears to lead towards one side instead of simply talking about the model itself. We don't find arguments from Creationists against Evolution in articles talking about Evolution and so such things should not be occurring here either.

Furthermore, the classification of Evolution and the Big Bang as science has been thoroughly disputed and one cannot simply choose what is fact and what isn't based on the presuppositions of the secular scientific community because theory cannot be defended with theory.

I call for a neutrality dispute header to be placed at the top of this article until it is cleaned up to present a non-biased view of the creation science movement. The header that is there now is entirely insufficient.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.175.182.192 (talk • contribs).

Some advice:

Log in with an account
Sign your posts
Add new topics to the bottom of the page.
There are indeed arguments by creationists in evolution
Theory is not defended with theory. Theories like evolution and the big bang are supported by data.
Discuss what you dislike about neutrality here or else your objections will not be taken very seriously--Filll 02:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Look at some of the editors and their comments. The user "ScienceApologist" as well as such edit comments as "edit to ensure that Creation science is not presented as a valid science." This entire article is a biased attack on creation science and doesn't simply talk about what it is.

You talk about creationism being mentioned in the Evolution article, however its spot is all the way at the bottom and only serves to make creation science out to be nonsense. And this "data" you speak should instead be referred to as the "Evolutionary meaning of the data" as it is completely interpretation based and that interpretation is a theory, or more correctly labeled, an hypothesis.

Certainly any person reading this article cannot claim that it is neutral. Changing the entire tone of the article is the only way it is going to be added back to the good article list.

Jrtman 09:38, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Jrtman, individual editors are allowed to have opinions. You certainly seem to have an opinion. As you'll note, the edit you seem to object to was reverted.

You are mistaken in suggesting that evolution is little more than a hypothesis. Just as all objects fall, all organisms evolve. Testably. To be frank, this sort of argument makes you seem ignorant. I don't know who told you that evolution is 'just a theory', but remember that gravity is just a theory, as are antennae and atoms.

In the end, creation science has a disputed right to the title of science. It claims to be science, while most scientists and most definitions of science exclude the supernatural. Can you understand why people might object to the concept of creation 'science'? Can you alsoo understand why certain religious people agree with the concept, regardless of scientific merit? -- Ec5618 10:54, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Creationism is not science. That's a fact and it's not in dispute. To present pseudoscience as science definitely violates NPOV. Orangemarlin 00:39, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

As noted earlier it has a disputed right as a sience, thus you can not at all say it is fact without dispute that it isn't a science. Mathmo ^Talk 05:04, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes you can. It has to abide by scientific method to be a science, and "creation science" does not do that. --Michael Johnson 05:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Jrtman, take a look at Evolution as theory and fact.--Filll 00:42, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

This article's sole-purpose is to define creation science, not criticize it. By injecting criticism into the main article you are removing the neutrality that a proper encyclopedic article requires. Name calling is not acceptable. Jrtman 22:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Um, what? Discussing criticism of a topic is a perfectly normal, neutral matter. Look at almost any biography article on Wikipedia of highly notable person and it will have a criticism section at minimum. JoshuaZ 22:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The article's sole purpose isn't to "define creation science", it's to produce an accurate definition of what it is. Since creation science purports to be science, the opinion of the scientific community is highly relevant. Guettarda 02:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely incorrect. Adding a section explaining criticism and filling the entire article with criticism are two different things. Would you edit President George W. Bush's article so that it's sole purpose was to make him out to be a imbecilic dolt just because the general consensus says he is? If you can't allow this encyclopedic article to be neutral in it's definition and explanation of the purpose of creation science you are not being neutral and should not be editing this article. It is clear that every single person who has taken part in writing this article has a biased Evolutionary agenda and that is why this article is so terribly biased. If I have to take this issue up with an unbiased admin I will do so. Jrtman 05:45, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Your analogy doesn't hold water. Obviously it would never be ok to describe someone as an "imbecilic dolt". It would, of course, be ok to describe someone as having a subnormal IQ if there was a reliable diagnosis, even if the person kept insisting they were a genius. Of course, NPOV would require us to document both claims, but if they had been diagnosed by several independent psychiatrists there would be no reason to give equal weight to the person's claims. Guettarda 13:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Creation science hasn't been proven to be wrong, so your entire example fails; what we're talking about here is opinion. The opinions of Big Bang, molecules-to-man Evolutionists do not apply to creation science because creation science says they're wrong. Sure, criticism deserves its place in any article, but it should have its own section instead of filling the entire article. I will state it again: theory (hypothesis) cannot be defended with theory (hypothesis). You refer to psychiatrists, however the validity of psychology is disputed. A psychiatrist can't say his diagnosis is true "because he said so" or "because the majority of psychiatrists say the same thing." His entire method and belief system is being called into question. That is why the arguments of the aforementioned scientists have no place being in the main article. Jrtman 18:27, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Creation science is SO bad it does not even deserve to be called "wrong". It fails to explain literally millions of pieces of evidence. That is why it is rejected by the vast majority of scientists. If you knew any science at all, you would realize what a fraud and a sham and how dishonest these "creation scientists" are: they are little better than hucksters and liars and crooks. It is just pure nonsense, like astrology and spiritualism and ESP and any number of other pseudoscientific beliefs.--Filll 18:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Creation science hasn't been proven to be wrong

Actually yes, overall it has been proven wrong.

The opinions of Big Bang, molecules-to-man Evolutionists do not apply to creation science because creation science says they're wrong.

That's the most ridiculous assertion I have heard all week (and I have heard some ridiculous ones). I suppose it's like Hovind saying the courts can't say he has to pay taxes, because he says that they're wrong.

Sure, criticism deserves its place in any article, but it should have its own section instead of filling the entire article

No. Separate criticism sections are strongly discouraged, and there is an "undue weight" provision in our neutral point of view policy. Creation science claims to be science, so the opinion of its proponents should not be given undue weight relative to those of "other" scientists.

I will state it again: theory (hypothesis) cannot be defended with theory (hypothesis)

A theory is a well-supported hypothesis. A hypothesis can be rejected (or not rejected) on the basis on experimental evidence. To the extent that they have come up with testable hypotheses, the hypotheses presented by creation scientists have been disproven; most of them are trivial to reject with data. Guettarda 20:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

For some reason, the use of "creation" and "science" in tandem strikes me as being akin to a feline dog. •Jim62sch• 00:01, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Creation Science is not science, and cannot reasonably be considered to be science. No standard Encyclopedia article can present Creations Science as science - that would be misleading. Do not mistake the opposition against Creation Science to be opposition against Creation - that is a different ball game. Do not mistake scientists' insistence on adhering to the definition of science when engaging in science to be faith in the current state of knowledge. If the science community thought our knowledge was complete, it would be time to pack up and go home. Trishm 00:21, 9 February 2007 (UTC) I've done some searching, looking for something solid about creationist claims among creation science papers, claims and court records, and found that several creationists, including Gish, reject the science claims made for creation science. I have included his quote in the article.Trishm 01:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually yes, overall it has been proven wrong.

Another ignorant statement akin to saying "You're wrong because I said you're wrong."

How many million pages of documents proving you are wrong do you need? Of course, I am sure you will reject any evidence, so this is a moot point.--Filll 03:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Terrible example. For one, income tax on private individuals in the United States is unconstitutional; secondly, if something is law it can be readily looked up and proven as such.

Oh brother...Brilliant. It sounds like you are a deep legal scholar.--Filll 03:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Experimental evidence says that molecules-to-man evolution doesn't occur; mutations in microscopic organisms not generating more complex organisms is a testament to this. Any other evidence used to "prove" evolution is based purely on presuppositions which are assumed to be correct. In any case, this isn't an argument on what theory is true, this is an argument on neutrality and the lack thereof.

YOu could be shown to be wrong, but it is pointless since you will never accept any of it. So what is the point?--Filll 03:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

This article is not an argument about whether creation science is what it claims to be, it is the definition and explantion of it and its proponents. How hard is this concept to understand? Jrtman 03:29, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

What creation science is...is some ranting and raving by a bunch of fringe kooks. It is a load of crap. How hard is that concept to understand?--Filll 03:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

So you're saying that new scientific ideas are incorrect because they are not widely believed at the time of their conception? Have you informed the history books about this? Jrtman 04:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Please focus onthe article. Jrtman, I suggest that you read the policies more closely. Neutrality does not mean presenting views equally. Neturality means taking a dispassionate look, including dissenting positions. Where a claim is not true, it must be presented as not true. Creation science is not a science. There is no definition of science where this is true. Look for court statements by proponents of Creation scientists to see the truth of this: a Christian under oath should be a pretty reliable source. You will find claims of Creation Science being science start to fall away in court.Trishm 04:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict with Trish)( While I would not state things as strongly as Fill does, I will point out that your comparison of creation sicence to "new scientific ideas." Most of these claims have been around for hundreds of years. They aren't new, they are old, wrong claims. JoshuaZ 04:43, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My view of the situation

The creation science crowd (and the creationist crowd before it) have taken a very narrow religious view, and then tried to claim they have a huge following, when they are just a handful of radical extremists. They want to define Christianity, and religion for everyone else. And interpret the bible for everyone else. And define science for everyone else. And their real agenda, is attacking evolution, in some sort of vague idea that is stopping people from believing or causing social ills. But the evidence is not there. And when this is pointed out to them, they are unhappy, with all kinds of charges of unfairness. They are really not much different than Scientology.--Filll 00:38, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

What irritates me most is they want to dictate to God how he did his work. And then if anyone disagrees, they throw a fit.--Filll 00:40, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

No, the agenda, as with most such impractical disputes, is to distract attention from ongoing economic disparities, fiscal irresponsibility, widespread ethical lapses, and military blunders abroad. Enjoy the circus, folks... Kasreyn 00:51, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

It is clear that creation science is a minority view among scientists. Look at level of support for evolution.--Filll 00:45, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

How can something which is not science be a minority view among scientists? I suppose it can be a "view of self-described scientists". That's about as far as verbiage can stretch the truth, though. You're being too lenient in your phrasing. ;) Kasreyn 00:53, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Less than 0.1% of US biologists think creationism is reasonable. Less than 0.15% of US biologists and earth scientist think it is reasonable. About 5% overall of US scientists subscribe to creationist ideas. Not sure how many of that 0.1%, 0.15% or 5% think creation science is science however; presumably a far smaller percentage. This is clearly an upper bound. See the article level of support for evolution--Filll 01:06, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

(Assuming you were replying to me) - I think you misunderstood. I meant to say that "creation science" cannot be a "minority" view among scientists because it cannot even be a view among scientists at all, being unscientific in nature. Ie., I'm basically saying "creation science"'s level of support among scientists is precisely zero, and that those who support it are, at least on that issue, not scientists. Cheers, Kasreyn 04:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Although I understand your desire, I believe that this is maybe a bit too much of a hard line. There are numerous people who are trained in the sciences, even with multiple PhDs from major schools, who work in science as scientists, who nonetheless subscribe to creation science ideas. Most do not work on "creation science" professionally however, but in some area which does not involve interacting with creationist claims or using them. Those scientists that do work in creation science are in most cases doing pseudoscience, not science, although there are a couple of notable exceptions. Do we excommunicate these scientists doing pseudoscience from science? I am not sure. But this sort of extreme view would probably run into big NPOV trouble here on WP.--Filll 14:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Oxymoron

Orangemarlin, introducing criticism into a definition is not encyclopedic. This is a major faux pas. Criticism should come after the definition or explanation of a position by it's proponents. There already is such criticism in the last few paragraphs of the introductory section. Please remove the criticism from the first sentence. I note that you have not sought consensus for the introduction of this material. ^ross ^nixon 01:05, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

OM just asked to discuss it first.--Filll 01:06, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Ross, Creation Science is a Fringe Theory, and therefore needs special handling to make sure that unintentional endorsement does not occur. Before you dispute that, it is even used as an example in the Fringe theory guidelines. Don't get me wrong. This has nothing to do with religious beliefs. The "fringe" label doesn't come about as an attack on Creation, it is because as a science, it has no legs to stand on.Trishm 05:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Most of the bias I 've seen here (and take this as a comment from someone with a neutral stance here not particularly adhering to any proponent) comes from the "scientists" propre who are always too quick and fervent to dismiss anything that would take their religion, science propre, off its pedastal even momemntarily. That's the biggest oxymoron here, science taken and adhered to as some sort of higher law and infallible religion. Because as history has shown religion sure enough it does require more than a fair share of fath, but so does science and over the course of humanity this faith on science, has time and again been proven wrong, as witnessed in the plethora of scientific blunders and the countless "scientific" theories once held as true, irrefutable and universal that turned out to be claptrap or absolute nonsense, not mere "miscalculations. The history of scientific enquiry in medicine alone would make a very good case for what I am saying...

That said, the fact of the matter is, as another user pointed out that it's not in an encyclopedia's etiquette to include criticism in the definition. Anyway you cut it, this is wrong and should be revmoved. I 've been using and commenting on several articles over the years and have not, as far as I remember, have across something like that.

And btw, last time I checked stephen jay gould was an etremely tedious author of pop science, sure he was a scientistic too, and a published one, but there are thousands like him, and his inclusion here comes solely out of his statous as a sleep inducing (pov) author. And excuse my french, but Dirty Harry said it best when he said that opinions, and I don't mean to be vulgar here or offend anyone - but this analogy really is the best I ve come across, he said opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. Steven's got one too, an opinion, so what?

On a side note, labelling with fringe theories is completely uncalled for. 213.170.207.96 02:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

See Fringe Theory Guidelines. Trishm 09:39, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Baiting people to try to engage in debates is not helpful. And why do you not have an account? Log in. And I would say that a view held by less than 0.01% of scientists in the area is definitely a fringe theory.--Filll 03:32, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

213.*, saying something is fringe is not a negative by itself. And as to your quote from Dirty Harry - I suggest you read Wikipedia's relevant policies such as WP:NPOV and WP:V. While everyone has an opinion what matters here is that among the relevant experts this is a verifiably a fringe idea. As to your comment about science being a religion- the claim is fascinating; I can't wait to get tours of the churches where they have services- maybe they pray at the particle accelerators and have alters of PCR machines? Oh, and all those scientists who are religious Christians or Jews or other religions would be most annoyed to be told that science is somehow a religion to them. JoshuaZ 03:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I also have a proposal: Let's make science tax free, so the public will have to subsidize it even more than they already do. Since it is a religion, it deserves to be treated like one, tax-wise right? So 213, you are basically volunteering to give science more money then? Thanks, I really appreciate your generosity.--Filll 04:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Yep, it could be treated as a faith-based initiative. Beaucoup bucks in that piss-hole. •Jim62sch• 00:04, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal and Redirection of "Creation Science"

If creation science cannot be treated with the same respect as other disputed concepts on the origin of life and the universe (such as that which the GTE is granted) I am forced to move that this entire article be removed and its title redirected to the article on general Creationism.

It is clear that the editors which are currently dedicated to writing this encyclopedic article are dogmatic promoters of Evolutionary-science whose attempts are solely aimed at combating any series of thought which are contrary to their beliefs and the beliefs of those scientists they respect. -Jrtman 00:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

What???Orangemarlin 02:18, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

A large number of editors have worked on this article and have created what seems to be an NPOV article. Instead of making threats and ultimatums please explain in detail what specific issues you think in the article is not NPOV. (And what the heck incidentally is GTE?). JoshuaZ 03:36, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I know I'm supposed to assume Good Faith, but could this guy be a troll. Orangemarlin 04:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I assume GTE = The Grand Theory of Evolution (as opposed to other uses of the word evolution such as micro-evolution / natural selection). We really need several different words. ^ross ^nixon 04:28, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I was wondering what GTE meant. Of course, since the author of the above didn't make any sense, I guess I didn't care. Orangemarlin 04:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

GTE = general theory of evolution. Look it up. As for what I find POV about this article, the first 3/4 of it are nothing but criticism. Please explain how an article that amounts to nothing more than theory bashing can call itself encyclopedic? There is a reason it was removed from the good article list. Jrtman 19:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Um, do you mean as used by creationists such as here? Not to be too blunt or condescending, but scientists don't use that term. There is no "general theory of evolution" that explains the life, universe and everything. There are a variety of different theories and hypotheses which creationists object to. The most prominent of these seem to be biological evolution and the Big Bang, but these don't make up some grand or general theory. I suggest you read a bit more on these topics especially from mainstream sources before you continue arguing over the neutrality and other issues with these topics since it seems that you know very little about it except as creationist strawmen. JoshuaZ 00:37, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I've never been to that site. I use GTE because it removes the need to define which type of evolution I'm referring to. After all, evolution is used in a number ways not even relating to Darwinian Evolution (and even that term could be disputed). General Theory of Evolution is a container term to refer to the theory of how life began from non-life and evolved from single-celled organisms to all the higher life we see today. Disputing the usage is nonsense.

As for your "mainstream" statement, my answer is "Who cares?" By definition a person is only mainstream in the scientific community if he believes everything his peers believe. How wide a belief is held doesn't turn non-truth into truth, something you should know. Jrtman 00:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

You didn't listen to a word I said did you? There isn't any "theory of how life began from non-life and evolved from single-celled organisms to all the higher life we see today." Abiogenesis and evolution are independent issues whose truth or falsity are not connected to each other. Using terms like "GTE" just conflates matters together and doesn't do anything useful. I will re[eat my request that you read more about what mainstream sources say so at minimum you will have the basic background and vocabularly to discuss these issues in a minimally productive fashion. JoshuaZ 01:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

And how am I a troll? Is it because I'm trying to make this article into something it should be rather than something you want it to be? Jrtman 19:43, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Because a lot of smart people contributed to making this article NPOV. You come in here and threaten people, and not assuming good faith. That qualifies high on the troll scale. Orangemarlin 23:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

It really doesn't matter how "smart" the people are who contributed to the article, their efforts are still aimed at making a mockery out of any theory that opposes the one they believe to be true. Jrtman 00:14, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

You are right, it doesn't actually matter how smart we are. That is the joy of an open source wikipedia. What is important is to contribute productively.Trishm 01:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Here is a webpage with some "smart" creationist arguments: "Creationism is not the alternative to Evolution, ignorance is", John Stear, No Answers in Genesis Yes it sure does not matter how "smart" anyone is, does it?--Filll 00:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

A) All I see in that article are emails sent from the general public. B) Not when it comes to biased agendas. Jrtman 01:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course. I am sure they just look like typical arguments to you. And I am sure those emails by the public are unbiased.--Filll 01:43, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course you forget all about the "ohemgee!! evolution has ben prooven you retardz!!11 u ar hindring scintifc progres!!!111oen ur godz can kiss mah ass" comments evolutionists send to creation science institutes. Jrtman 18:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Having read some of the feedback at AIG and ICR, I have to say most of it seems more informed than that. Furthermore, if you look at the feedback the Talk Origins Archive gets one gets similar junk from creationists(and dare I say it, generally more uninformed). Having people make stupid remarks doesn't really show anything one way or another. JoshuaZ 18:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

It would be strange for a self-respecting organization to respond to such comments, and stranger still if they were to post them for the general public to view. In any case, I agree with you: stupid comments prove nothing one way or another. Filll must just like using strawman arguments. Now, when are we going to get this article cleaned up? Jrtman 05:46, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Third paragraph criticism

Part of the 3rd paragraph criticism is repeated further down (section 2.3 I think). The whole introduction is rather long - too much content before the section index (or whatever it's called). ^ross ^nixon 05:01, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead and make an improvement. If we don't like, we'll revert it and leave you nasty messages. :) Orangemarlin 05:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Just be sure to bash the subject or your change will be reverted. Jrtman 19:45, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Keep going Jrtman. I don't usually threaten RfC's and the such, but you're pushing it. Orangemarlin 20:31, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm just stating my experience. I didn't start a name-calling argument, everyone else here did a nice job of that. Jrtman 00:16, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

What??? Are you inventing things? Orangemarlin 19:10, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Apparently I am. Well, at least according to your just so beliefs. Jrtman 05:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Banner.

It's been two weeks since anyone edited the talk page, and the {{ActiveDiscuss}} banner was added by an anonymous anyway. I've removed it. Adam Cuerden ^talk 15:12, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New opening sentence?

Personally I think that a good elegant first sentence is the key to improving any article - particularly one where contention is been prevalent, and the intro may be bogged down in legalese. So, I thought I'd throw this out there for comment:

"'Creation Science' refers to the belief of Young Earth Creationists that the scientific method can be used to support a literal interpretation of the biblical account of creation."

Since I'm not very link-savvy, I left it in plain text. What d'you say, folks? SheffieldSteel 23:07, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Or, "'Creation Science' refers to the use of scientific methods by Creationists to support a literal interpretation of the biblical account of creation." Note: There is not one scientific method. ^ross ^nixon 00:44, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Um, I don't see how either of these are improvements. Both of them are less precise and contain less information than the current opening sentence. JoshuaZ 00:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lead Section

I just came back to this article, and I realized that the Lead section has really gotten away from us. It is long, and really has become uninteresting, given the subject matter. In addition, lot's of POV has crept in over the past few days (maybe weeks).

If you read Wikipedia's guide to layout, it suggests that lead sections be one or a few paragraphs long, and avoids wikilinks. The guide says: "Normally, the first paragraph summarizes the most important points of the article. It should clearly explain the subject so that the reader is prepared for the greater level of detail and the qualifications and nuances that follow."

Right now the lead section is doing a lot more than that, making a case for Creation Science (which is fine, but could be done in a few sentences), is filled with wikilinks (which makes it hard to read, and doesn't draw anyone into the article), and doesn't summarize the key points of the article.

I suggest the Lead Section read as below:

Creation science, refers to the campaign by creationists (especially those who believe in a "young" Earth) to use the methods and empirical practices of science to demonstrate that scientific evidence supports a literal interpretation of the biblical account of creation. Believers in creation science primarily include members of evangelical Christian denominations that subscribe to the doctrine of biblical inerrancy; however there are examples of Islamic supporters of creation science as well.^[2]^[3]^[4]

The claim that Creation science is a valid science is disputed. The scientific community overwhelmingly supports the fact that creation science is not a valid science. The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated "the claims of creation science lack empirical support and cannot be meaningfully tested. These observations lead to two fundamental conclusions: the teaching of evolution should be an integral part of science instruction, and creation science is in fact not science and should not be presented as such in science classes."^[5] and "Creationism, intelligent design, and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life or of species are not science because they are not testable by the methods of science."^[6] It is viewed as a pseudoscience that does not conform to the scientific method, as well as admissions by its proponents that the means of creation cannot be proven.^[7] Creation science literature generally consists of compilations of alleged weaknesses in current models of evolution and geology.^[8]^[9]

Advocates of creation science dispute the uniformitarian model of geology in favor of flood geology, arguing for the historical accuracy of the Biblical deluge as described in Genesis. They disagree with the scientific theory of common descent of all life via evolution, claiming that evolution is itself pseudoscientific^[10] and argue in favor of creation biology. They reject scientific theories on the age of the universe, arguing for creationist cosmologies based on an age of less than ten thousand years.

Some advocates have spent many years arguing for the inclusion of creation science in the science curriculum of U.S. public schools. In 1987 in Edwards v. Aguillard the Supreme Court of the United States held that a requirement that public schools teach creation science alongside evolution as an alternative theory violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.^[11]

We shouldn't engage in an edit war here, so unless there are strong objections, I'm going to replace the current lead with this one, and let's fine-tune it there. I cut out the whole Arkansas thing, because it really belongs in another section, and frankly, I'm not so sure why the Arkansas law has real merit, especially if we want to take a global view of this discussion. Not to insult Arkansas, but it's not like it's England, Sweden or even a leading educational system in the United States. OK, I insulted Arkansas. Orangemarlin 17:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I like that version, though I note that the lack of wikilinks is suggested for biographical summaries, not summaries in general, so we could, with advantage, wikilink a bit more. Adam Cuerden ^talk 20:00, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I didn't like the 2.6 billion wikilinks in the original version. OK, I might have exaggerated a bit. :) Orangemarlin 23:26, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with OrangeMarlin's version, with the proviso that the removed material be incorporated elsewhere in the body of the article.--Filll 00:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

the word espouse, rather than use better expresses the reputation of "creation science" among scientists, and the utter lack of publication "creationist hypotheses" in refereed scientific journals.JStripes 00:24, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

There continues to be a serious problem in logic here: "The United States National Academy of Sciences has stated 'the claims of creation science lack empirical support and cannot be meaningfully tested. These observations lead to two fundamental conclusions: the teaching of evolution should be an integral part of science instruction, ...'" This statement appears to suggest that evolution is taught, or should be taught, because creation science fails. Nothing could be further from the truth. Evolutionary theory developed and established itself with no reference to "creation science." "Creation science" arose in reaction against the theory of evolution. Cause and effect are reversed in the lead section as it stands, distorting the processes and nature of scientific inquiry, as well as the resulting classroom content.

This problem stems from having sliced the beginning off the quotation from the source, viz, "The theory of evolution has become the central unifying concept of biology and is a critical component of many related scientific disciplines. In contrast, the claims ..." It is the first observation that leads to the first conclusion. It sould be quoted in full, or summarized more accurately. JStripes 04:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Stripes--I missed your comments here. I think you're right. Orangemarlin 17:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

In order to create an NPOV, this needs removed from the category of "Pseudoscience." There are serious scientists who look into this, there is serious scientific evidence that hints at it. Further more, I am not waiting for a consensus, this does not have an NPOV and needs removed from "Pseudoscience." --Jorbian 02:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

No, per NPOV is needs to be in the article. This is well supported by references. As for "serious scientists who look into this" - please do tell who they are and where their science in published. Not in any real peer reviewed scientific journals. Guettarda 03:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Pseudoscience--a system of theories, assumptions, and methods erroneously regarded as scientific. Creation Science is a misnomer, because it is not, in fact, a science. There are no serious published scientists who espouse Creation Science. There are no peer-reviewed journals that cover Creation Science. It does not even fit even a marginal definition of science. Orangemarlin 06:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

To fellow creationists - I used to be offended by the pseudoscience tag, but now I almost regard it as flattering. It means we do not use a narrow-minded scientific method (only) that can never find out that life must have been designed by a creator.

To non-creationists - there are serious published scientists who espouse Creation Science. There are peer-reviewed journals that cover Creation Science. Find these yourselves. And evolution is pseudoscience also, due to the a priori assumptions used, and the obvious religious fervour of many of it's followers. ^ross ^nixon 01:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Name one. But let's make sure we define who's a scientist and who's not. Some bozo on the internet, who has a degree from Bob Jones University in Computer Science, is NOT a scientist by any stretch of the imagination. I'd prefer someone with credentials from the NAS or other legitimate governing body. And when we define peer-reviewed journals, let's make sure that they're peer-reviewed by other worthy scientists. Lastly, don't be flattered by the pseudoscience tag. It includes Astrology, Homeopathy, Alchemy, and other worthy subjects. In other words, hooey. Orangemarlin 17:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

This is blatant nonsense. There are essentially no peer-reviewed creationist publications in major journals. Show me an example of a creationist publication in Science or Nature or Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Academy or a National Academy of Sciences journal and I might change my mind. There are a few extremists who might subscribe to creationist views, but there are a teeny tiny minority; much less than 0.1% in the relevant fields. After all, it makes no sense to find a lawyer or a sanitation engineer who claims that the world was created in 6000 years. My response to that is, "so what?". It is essentially meaningless. It is about the same as finding a bus driver who believes that apricot pits will cure cancer. If you get cancer, will you go to your bus driver for treatment, or an oncologist? --Filll 02:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Since Ross Nixon is flattered by the pseudoscience tag, let me guess that he'd choose the bus driver. With some laying on of hands. Orangemarlin 17:45, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Science or just scientific?

You may correct just my english, for if we do an internet search on "creation science" we get huge amount of results, although if so it on "evolution science" (with no connectors) we get very few. On the other hand, if we do the same with "creationism" and "evolutionism" then we get quite the inverse, what comes to be a better expecting proportion. That is because, like evolutionism, creationism should be considered just a scientific trend inside the science of biology, or maybe also some others, like archeology and astronomy. Please, creationism is not A science. I'm a creationist myself but I see calling its still raising scientific arm as "Creation Science" is inappropriate and shows out as infantile and pretentious, what we are NOT. I understand even the term "creationist science" is not suitable, because we want to be (and will be) more and more side by side with evolutionism, as a strong alternative second trend, close to them, and reviewing THEM to begin with. I suggest to change this article title to "Scientific Creationism", or have a new one and calling attention to this issue. Also, the lable "pseudoscience" is much more easily appliable, for this same reason - however much less with "pseudoscientific" for then it would be labeling a simply new scientific trend. Or, in the contrary, it should be also applied to any other trends (inside any sciences) just because of claiming new approaches while being not fully tested yet. --Lacerda 16:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

"creationism should be considered just a scientific trend inside the science of biology"? No, not really. OK, no not at all. Creationism is religion, period. There's more science involved in making a pencil than will ever exist in creationism.

BTW, it's really cosmology to which you refer, not astronomy, and paleontology would be more appropriate than archaeology (at least concerning creationism). Now, for the study of why creation myths exist archaeology would be the correct term.

In any case, your post reminds me of Kruschev's boastful "Kitchen Speech" -- when the time came to meet at the crossroads the Soviet Union crumbled. •Jim62sch• 16:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Hey, great reversion (kind of an olympic one)! But be not afraid - just prepared though... I'm not a scientist myself, but even a cook may help here. Unfortunately (to all skeptics) the scientific method does not provide to avoid scientists to take inspiration from whatever they want. If observing some data, one of them see he can use, lets say, the ouroboros to erect some new and consistent explanatory model, then no one and nothing will hinder him - of course given he will not confess it. The difference is that creationists do confess and the scientific method has nothing against if their models are scientifically consistent. Or you may tell just one of their claims that is not corroborated by clear scientific evidence. Or (quite possibly) IF you see the evidence as not already peer reviwed... THEN the label is ready. :-) --Lacerda 17:50, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Believers in creationism are not scientists, because they do not seek simple rational explanations for their observations; rather, they seek observations that confirm their beliefs. Creationism is not a scientific theory; it will not be altered in the light of any evidence that comes to light. I could go on but those who understand don't need to be told and those who don't won't.

SheffieldSteel 03:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Believers in evolutionism are not scientists, because they do not seek simple rational explanations for their observations; rather, they seek observations that confirm their beliefs. Evolutionism is not a scientific theory; it will not be altered in the light of any evidence that comes to light. I could go on but those who understand don't need to be told and those who don't won't. ^ross ^nixon 01:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

This is pap, or prejudiced and prejudicial nonsense, to be only too polite, horsefeathers to be more accurate (compared to dinosaur feathers discussed below). For example, see the article on the evolution of feathers in late dinosaurs (evolved into birds) in the 2005 Annual Review of Earth and Planetary Sciences, Vol. 33, pp. 277-299, by Mark A. Norell and Xing Xu. This international research collaboration excavated, cleaned and studied numerous fossils of the late Mesozoic era. The link from dinosaurs to birds is now on more solid ground, but geologists and paleontologists are always ready to accept new evidence, for or against any evolutionary link. Suggest folks read the scientific literature! Research papers in reliable journals are refereed by peers, and Annual Reviews seeks out the best reviewers. There are lots of photos of specimens in the above-cited paper. Carrionluggage 16:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah, that old chestnut about science being a religion. Frankly, science is somewhat more convincing as a religion than God is as a scientific theory. SheffieldSteel 21:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

SheffieldSteel:"...rather, they seek observations that confirm their beliefs." <- When evolutionists read creationist scientific explanations, they also do the same, of course, arguing against exactly in order to confirm their belief (that evolution is correct). Nothing wrong with that, as any human activity is founded in beliefs that are naturally self defensive. Materialist scientists should not qualify creationist scientists as just believers, if not wanting to respond about scientific basic and unfounded beliefs. Religious have the right to get in science if they want, given to stay strictly scientifical, WHAT does not concern their motivations, or please tell where in science there is anything formalizing what a scientist can or cannot get as his epistemological motivation, like expecting to demonstrate consciousness is just about nervous activity.

"Creationism is not a scientific theory" <- Well, maybe not for now, but might be in time, as creationist scientists are working on it. Please see if you can find a single one scientific creationist work in the internet that is not signed by a scientist. But do they try to scientifically prove their religious beliefs? Yes, of course, just like the scientific police tries to prove what they believe to be an evident crime. They are not "pseudoscientific" just because of their police motivation, even not for their work being not A science, and still not even if they find no proof. Scientific creationism IS scientific. If it will become a whole theory, we don´t know, but surely they have the right to try. And without getting apriori labels just for that.

"I could go on but those who understand don't need to be told and those who don't won't." <- Sorry, but just bare believers (not scientific ones) are excusable to use this argument ignoring it can be applied to themselves. --Lacerda 01:50, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Carrionluggage:"Research papers in reliable journals are refereed by peers, and Annual Reviews seeks out the best reviewers." <- Please, do you really believe materialist scientists would make honest reviews on creationist works? Could it be possible that absolutely none of the arguments presented by creationists scientists have anything correct? Or could be them all insane? Have you in good will studied some of their works? --Lacerda 02:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

No, sorry, but anyone who disregards evidence because it does not confirm their prior beliefs is being unscientific. And there are plenty of documented examples (some even on wikipedia) of creationists discounting evidence after evaluating it, because it did not agree with their beliefs.

This is the fundamental difference between science and religion: Scientific theories can change, have changed, and will change in the light of discoveries. Scientists pride themselves on that. Religous beliefs, on the other hand, tend not to have changed historically very much, and believers remain extremely resistant to changing their beliefs in the light of evidence. They pride themselves on that, too, calling it faith. And you know what? They are right to do so. It's a mistake to try to claim that religion is science, or that science is a religion. An iPod is a wonderful device, but you wouldn't use it to tighten a wheel nut when your car gets a puncture. SheffieldSteel 02:39, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

"No, sorry, but anyone who disregards evidence because it does not confirm their prior beliefs is being unscientific." <- This is correct and should be ever observed, but, unfortunately, the scientific method provides no means to keep a scientist intellectually honest, so leaving him on his own. But this is normal in science. The simple desire of a scientist to be spotted can easily deviate his attention from others promissing works. Then you see new raising trends in place of better developed ones. Of course materialist scientists also disregard creationist scientific evidences - and there are lots - but none of them is minimally recognized to be slightly correct. If you reply they disregarded first, that indeed couldn't be avoided because materialist science came first. So the real problem here is about politics - for how possibly could we expect a materialist to recognize a single bit of what could consequently destruct all his world view and leave him with nothing to scientifically explain why he does not believe in God? For him, thinking this is a waking nightmare, the worse that could happen to his life and to his children, and so he will fight (like now) against any remote threat to avoid it. No gods or priests over him: period!

"Scientific theories can change, have changed, and will change in the light of discoveries." <- Surprise: this is exactly what will happen with creationism. They will change their theories, but given they will be just new ways to prove what they previously believe in: that matter is animated by spirit. Likewise you will ever see materialist scientists changing theories, but just if they do NOT threaten what they previously believe in: that only matter exists.

"An iPod is a wonderful device, but you wouldn't use it to tighten a wheel nut when your car gets a puncture." <- Nor would you use the wheel spanner to set the iPod. And that is what materialist scientists do when they strive to prove consciousness is not spiritual but just some nervous chemical processes. Well, you can set the iPod with the spanner if you really try, but don´t tell me this proves the iPod to be not necessarily designed for the fingers. --Lacerda 19:57, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, that wasn't the point I was trying to make at all. Science and religion are very different things; they are tools suited to fundamentally different purposes. If science is religion, and religion is science, then God is a theory and gravity should be worshipped. Good luck with that world view. SheffieldSteel 21:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I read some of the parapsychological literature in college - the quietest place to study was that section of Widener Library, because no one else ever came there. So I read some of the articles. I fear that none of you who complain about scientists have gone to a library to look at the Annual Review I cited. It is in most University libraries. If you disbelieve what is written and displayed in photos there, the onus is on you to find some way to disprove it. Carrionluggage 05:49, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

"Creation scientists by and large do no laboratory or field research; rather they re-interpret existing laboratory and field data." Are you saying doing that is not legitimate research or science? 68.109.232.53 20:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

No. It indicates that they are not interested in primary research, because I would assume it would all disprove their belief sets. Whatever the reason, true science must eventually produce primary data that can be interpreted. Real science, for example, establishes a hypothesis, and then tests that hypothesis. Creationists hypothesize that some supernatural being, aliens from Mars, or the Rolling Stones created the world, all of its organisms, etc. Then they fail to produce the experiments to test that hypothesis, since how do you test for the presence of supernatural beings. Interpreting other peoples data is fine, but it's not real science. Orangemarlin 20:46, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Meta-analysis and Meta-studies are not real science? And what experiment has been done to show that martians did not influence life here on earth? 68.109.232.53 20:54, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

SheffieldSteel:"Actually, that wasn't the point I was trying to make at all." <- If you don't mind I'll leave this up to all and future readers. "Science and religion are very different things; they are tools suited to fundamentally different purposes." <- Ideally I do agree, but in the real world different things mix as convenient, generally for political need. Religion was quite homy when materialist science began to gain much souls, telling there is no need of God. So now religious are using sciences own prestige to strike back. In my opinion, this will bring scientific materialism to fall, because #1 its method does not rule motivations, #2 it made too deep ontological assumptions, so digging its own grave, and #3 science in fact cannot tell what phenomena are, but just how phenomena behave. --Lacerda 21:42, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Carrionluggage:"Yes, I read some of the parapsychological literature in college - the quietest place to study was that section of Widener Library, because no one else ever came there. So I read some of the articles." <- Ok, but this quite makes you seeming to don't know that parapsychology is not a creationist scientific subject, although I personaly would like to include it. It is tricky but very important, specially concerning buncodebunkers who mislead the public about the actual scientific meaning of their challenges.

"I fear that none of you who complain about scientists have gone to a library to look at the Annual Review I cited. It is in most University libraries." <- Fortunately I live deep inside the brazilian jungle but I don't think I will find this work at the local sequoia. I did search the internet for it and found just its abstract, having to spend 20 bucks for the whole pdf. I have this much just to feed my crocodile. Of course, in case you can lend me the file, then I can try to comment. Anyway see below.

"If you disbelieve what is written and displayed in photos there, the onus is on you to find some way to disprove it." <- In fact I have found several articles on the feathered dinossaurs, even about these 2005 ones, but found also that then creationist scientists promptly presented their reviews, and I cannot say I would do better. If you will want to endure the readings there are some at ICR and TrueOrigin under "There are No Transitional Fossils", but all the paper is very enlightening for who are still wanting to form a balanced opinion. I would just like to suggest you all to check how these articles (as others mainly at ICR) are eminently scientific and signed by scientists, no matter what they want to demonstrate. --Lacerda 21:42, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Orangemarlin:"Whatever the reason, true science must eventually produce primary data that can be interpreted." <- Please see that scientific creationism is not A science, but just new scientific trends inside several already existing sciences. So creationist scientists would be unethical and naive to start not considering all existing scientific works and theories. That is why they must begin mainly adressing and reviewing. --Lacerda 21:42, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I think I see my mistake now. Orangemarlin, you've worked pretty tirelessly to improve these articles and have also done a good job of being civil to people who dispute the content of the article. I'd like to apologise for ~~f*****g the t***l~~ contributing to the large quantity of relatively unproductive text on this page. I'll see if I can improve the article instead. SheffieldSteel 22:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article is Written from an evolutionists point of view!!!

I think both points of view should be explained after all it is an article on creation....

Plese consider this request...

does any1 agree with me?

Llama scim 20:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)llama scimLlama scim 20:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. And the same with ID, evolution, just about antying in this general subject. For instance look at the articl about Rush Limbaugh. It does not say he is a drug addict in the first line. or say that Bill Clinton was impeached in the first line or say the Richard Nixon was a crook in the first line. The first lines or even paragraphs should be very neutral and just state fact. Wiki is very good except in these evolution articles. 68.109.234.155 20:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree ~~the~~ that wikipedia should cover "both points of view", assuming that there are only two, that they are given due weight, and that such views are expressed via attribution to reliable sources. I don't see that it being "an article on creation" is relevant. SheffieldSteel 20:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't agree. It conforms to WP:NPOV, in that it describes Creation Science, then shows why it is a pseudoscience. It is fair and balanced. And the reason that the Rush Limbaugh articles does not start off with his drug addiction, Bill Clinton with his impeachment or Richard Nixon as a crook, is because in each case, the negative attribute is a minor part of their overall biography. Orangemarlin 20:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Well Nixon is most notable for being a crooked president and Clinton is notable for his illicit relationships and Rush is very noted for his drug addiction. No, I think in any case the first paragraph should bend over backwards to present only facts. Look at nambla, hitler. And in the astrology, homeopathy article it does not state it is pseudoscience till the second paragraph. Phrenology is called a 'theory'. I think the whole evolution related articles are written from POV. 68.109.234.155 20:54, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Your definition of notable is notably lacking. If I were a historian, Nixon would be more notable for creating relations with China, ending the Vietnam war, and other activities. He is also notable for resigning the presidency, which would be a result of the Watergate affair. As for being "crooked" that's a highly POV term. With regards to this article, the lead is exceedingly neutral. Thanks Raspor for your comments. Orangemarlin 21:04, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Swap paras 2 & 3?

I think it might be better to swap paragraphs 2 & 3 in the intro, so that the proponents' position is described before that of the critics. What does everyone else think? SheffieldSteel 20:50, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

That would be more balanced. 68.109.234.155 20:56, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

It's inappropriate to put forth, in fairly glowing, uncritical terms, a position that is almost entirely rejected by scientists before mentioning that it's widely criticised. I don't think all the criticism needs to come first, and this lead is pretty awful anyway, but we need some hint of the majority position before the advocate's position. Adam Cuerden ^talk 02:04, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it needs work - even after my attempts (or perhaps more so :-/ )... but I think we must say what creation scientists believe before we document criticism of those beliefs. SheffieldSteel 02:54, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

To some extent, yes, but it needs to be clear it's a fringe view, and not generally considered science quite early on. Whether this is done with criticism first, or just by adding a sentence about the criticism to the first paragraph, it doesn't matter, but it shouldn't take 5 paragraphs to discover it's a fringe view, nor to learn that the advocates' claim of it being a science is not accepted by scientists, and does not even fit into most definitions of science. Also, the first sentence and the first paragraph are both supposed to be able to stand on their own (WP:LEAD) - a suggestion I support, as there's no guarantee people will read further - but taken on their own, only present one POV, which is bad (though probably not intentional). If we can get the lead paragraph sorted, it'll probably be alright to then begin the advocate's position, but I think this arrangement is necessary until the opening paragraph is balanced out. Adam Cuerden ^talk 16:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I've made an attempt to restructure the intro, taking into account that the first paragraph should form a mini-intro in its own right. I'm still unhappy with what is now the second paragraph: I think it goes into too much detail about geology. I'm also removing two uses of the word "claimed" from the same sentence (!) SheffieldSteel 17:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

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