Talk:Cradle of Humanity
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I have attempted a clean up and reorganisation of the article to include more than a Christian and evolutionary point of view
John D. Croft 16:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
See archived discussion at Talk:Cradle of Humanity/archive4Sept2004
This article needs lots of NPOV editing to reflect all relevant viewpoints. An accurate new opening is likely to be considered "contentious":
- "The 19th-century evangelical Protestants who invented the term Cradle of Humanity made generalized but undocumented claims that the term originated in Mesopotamia in the second century, and that it was used by early Arab Christians to refer to a geographic area that falls within a 1,000 mile radius of the spot they believed to be the birthplace of humankind. No documentation of such a historical use has been forthcoming. Nevertheless, the term has been used not only in religious, but also in secular contexts, and may therefore refer to different locations, depending on the views of the user."
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[edit] On The Cradle of Humanity.
The places commonly liable to be among the cradle of humanity and civilized life are India and (Central) Africa due to the excavations and archeological studies and discoveries there. Why are they not mentioned here in this page nor the basis of their dismissal?
What about Ernst Haeckel's theories of an Asian origin?
"Meanwhile, other evolutionary scientists", explanation is a veiled reference to the Multi-regional hypothesis, which is increasingly rejectedby most scientists based upon genetic studies. Where is the OoA theory? Chris Stringer?
This is a poorly written article, based upon Christian fundamentalist views. For example what about Indian or Chinese views on the "Cradle of Humanity"? This represents a highly biased viewpoint and needs a complete re-write. John D. Croft 21:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The Christian use of the term "Cradle of Humanity"
The statement that first or second century Christians used the term "Cradle of Humanity" cannot be factually supported. Which Anti-Nicene fathers used this term, and who first fixed the physical location of the theological Garden of Eden near the present-day city of Basra in Iraq?
Tkandell 14:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Point of View
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The neutrality of this section is disputed. Please see the discussion on the talk page. |
Bias
This article tends to be biased towards a Creationist perspective. For example "Evolutionists" is a term used by Fundamentalist Christians. Evolutionary biologists is a better, more neutral term. John D. Croft 16:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Possibilty
I believe that the article should make mention that the non Arab christians may likely have been Assyrians, as from what i read on wikipedia the time frame in question seems to be supportive of the Assyrians who converted to christianity in the time frame and were the non Arab christians living in this region.
[edit] Cradle of humanity
It's inaccurate to mention that the terms Middle East and Far east were coined from british colonial times.
This separations between east and west first began from classic times (Ancient Greece & Rome). Greeks considered Asia to be a different world from the Mediterranean.
In Roman times, wars with Cartague and Egypt are seen by many historians as struggles between East and West.
In the Middle Ages this distinction became even deeper when Christianity divided itself in Western (Latin & Catholic)and Eastern (Greek & Orthodox) but specially when islam appeared and occupied the so called Middle East.
The appearence of Mongols (not Christians nor Muslims)and Marco Polo's jouneys let to the idea of a far east (an east far beyond the known east which under a logic reasoning became a Middle East. There is a similar reasoning for the term American Mid-West. Places like Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Indiana, Wyoming, Kansas etc... were traditionally the west of the Original U.S. When the U.S. obtained territories like California, Oregon, Arizona etc. Those lands became the West, and the traditional west became the Mid-West.
So the point of reference is western Europe in general (France, Great Britain, Germany, Italy, Spain & Portugal, though not concretely the Great Britain.
Now, the Term Middle east certainly reflects cultural criteria, not just geographical. But the same kind of criteria helps understand human and historical boundaries.
An Example:
Armenia and Georgia, both nominally christian countries, the first one speaking an indoeuropean language and the second a caucasian one, both are considered fully europeans because these ingredients are considered european. Turkey, is closer to Europe, but it's a muslim country, speaks an asiatic language and is "etnically asiatic". If it should be considered European, generates caustic debates.
So, under this criteria which may have inaccuracies and may conduce to stereotype, it's possible to understanding better different geographical definitions.
Considering the previous example the reader may inferr that European countries are partially defined by:
- Having any form of Christianity as mainstreanm Religion* - Their mother languages are usually Indoeuropean or Local origin languages.** - Classical Influence (Greek or Roman)
- ) There're certainly exceptions. Albania is a Muslim country and so are many regions in the Balkans, but islam got there with the ottoman occupation not from Greco-Roman influence.
- ) Languages represent a further more complicated issue. Hungary and Finland speak finno-ugraic languages which are not local like Basque or celtic languages. Actually these finno-ugraic languages arrived technically from Asia.
[edit] Garden of Eden
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Please help improve this article or section by expanding it. Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion. This article has been tagged since January 2007. |
What is the location which is given as the center of the Cradle? Or is there more than one? There are multiple proposed locations for the Garden of Eden. -- Beland 22:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
- Presumably the intersection of Tigris and Euphrates (in southern Iraq) was used here -- though others would say that the original Biblical reference was actually more probably to the general "Kurdistan" area (near the headwaters of the Tigris, Euphrates, and other rivers). AnonMoos 22:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Self-contradicting
The article in its current form kind of seems to contradict itself. AnonMoos 22:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Clarify, please
The 1000-mile limit is measured from what geographical point, exactly? (The Garden of Eden, yes I know, but where did the inventors of this phrase think that was?)
Depending on the answer, I suspect that your list of 15 countries will turn out to be incorrect. --not signed up
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- Update. I see someone has specified the assumed midpoint in the article. In that case, Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Egypt should fall within the circle as well. Right? This means the map and list of "15" countries must be changed.
[edit] Is this original research?
Doing a google of the phrase "cradle of humanity" turns up a relatively poor result. Yes it's 61,400 hits (as of 29 Oct 2006), but that's actually rather low for a term that "should" be common. More importantly, the google hits are all from rather obscure websites (largely Christian-focussed, almost none specializing in history or archaeology, which "ought" to be using the term, if the term were commonly known). And the google hits are also contradictory, often focussing on Ethiopia or South Africa, and not the Middle-East. My feeling is that "Cradle of Humanity" is a rather obscure term, not nearly as "common" as implied by this Wikipedia article. It's also odd when you stumble across this "Cradle of Humanity" on every relevant country page at Wikipedia; for example, the article on "Gaza Strip" says "It is considered to be one of the fifteen territories that comprise the so-called Cradle of Humanity." 'Considered' so by whom exactly? Apparently not by many people outside of Wikipedia; I've personally never heard about this "Cradle of Humanity" in any other contexts, and only first heard about it at Wikipedia. I'd be curious to know: do the English-language tourism brochures of Israel, Iran, Qatar, etc. use this expression to refer to themselves? If it was a well-known term, you'd think these countries would be printing it all over their self-promotion. For example, try googling "cradle of humanity" + iran, or +israel, etc., and you find very few uses as described here in the Wikipedia article (and all the uses seem to be derived from the Wikipedia text!) ***five minutes later*** I just had a look at the German version of this article, which is divided into two pages: one page is "Cradle of Humanity (anthropological)" and the other is "Cradle of Humanity (biblical)". The former refers only to East Africa (Olduvai etc.), while the latter refers to the 15-countries centered around Biblical Eden. I'd actually recommend a direct translation from the German articles, they're much clearer, more neutral, and more concise.
- As a conservative Christian, I believe in creation as described by the Bible. I have read many publications of the Institute for Creation Research and attended at least one conference of theirs, as well as similar matters sponsored by similar groups, and I have never heard this term until seeing it just now in the Oman article. A search of ICR's website, for example, reveals no pages containing both "cradle" and "humanity". Nyttend 13:51, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Google scholar turns up 206 results: [1]. Most relate to east Africa, as the site where Homo sapiens first emerged; however, the term is often a throwaway reference used in the introductory paragraphs of articles, rather than the focus of extended reflection. I don't think the term is notable enough for an article, and the article as written is a bunch of original research. I'd favor either deleting the article or translating the German articles. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:48, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Introduction!?
Clicked on a link to this page (from Iran) through curiosity. It is very confusing. There is no introduction whatsoever, it just goes straight into "Use of the Term" - well as someone who had no idea what the article was about how do I know what term and usage you're talking about? Very messy. Could someone do a short introduction paragraph? I have read the first four paragraphs but still do not know what "Cradle of Humanity" is. --Mike Infinitum 16:06, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Remove Redirect
The redirect "Cradle(s) of Civilization" should be removed, as the abovementioned title could include the Indus and Niger River areas as well, and that Humanity, as in the human race as it it is used in the article, existed in an "uncivilized" manner prior to their discovery of agriculture at different points in time.--Whytecypress 01:21, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
