Talk:Cprog

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[edit] A good start

Nice job getting this article rolling, kevinalewis. I think our next move is to get some examples, clarifying the statements being made here, and then perhaps adding the sub-category to the progressive rock category. Thanks for your efforts. Mitchell k dwyer 09:58, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks guys for getting this article started. Chiok 22:19, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] C or not C?

Why are the Galactic cowboys listed if their article doesn't even have the word 'Christian' in it? Just looking for consistency:-) Petergee1 16:55, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

One of the things we're going to have to decide on is how to handle bands made up of Christians whose lyrics and themes are not explicitly Christian. I've not familiar with Galactic Cowboys, but I just looked at their FAQ which has "6. Are you a christian band? NO! 7. Are you Christians? YES!". That Prog that is C rather than CProg. We should either remove them from the page or have two lists, one for prog bands made up of Christians and one for prog bands with explicitly Christian themes/lyrics. Chiok 21:16, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, Galactic Cowboys is really more of a power metal band than a prog metal band; their sound is very close to that of King's X, so I wonder if it even belongs on the list. --Mitchell k dwyer 22:14, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Just a suggestion from someone familiar with prog, but not with christian prog: try to stick with bands that deal with Christian themes. After all, this page is about a musical subgenre. It does not intend to list bands whose members happen to be christians (could become a looooong list). Hence, Neal Morse is an excellent example, Galactic Cowboys would not be one (aside from the question whether they are prog or not). Being bold, I removed the GC entry;-). Keep up the good work guys! Petergee1 22:46, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

The only small problem with a practice such as this is defining (or agreeing on) what "Christian themes" are. Galactic Cowboys has a song that addresses the issue of abortion -- I don't remember which side of the argument it takes, but I'm sure the band would tell you that it comes from their Christian perspective, whether it mentions religion or not. Likewise, Kerry Livgren has an instrumental album called One of Several Possible Musicks. What makes that a "Christian" album or not? The title? The liner notes?

Then you have bands like King's X, where at one time all three members were outspokenly Christian, whether their songs dealt with religious themes or not. Now, only Ty Tabor seems to be coming from that same place. Doug Pinnick seems to be railing against the same God he used to lift up, and Jerry Gaskill seems to be in a state of doubtful questioning (I'm basing all of these statements on their lyrics in King's X and on their solo work). It is my opinion that all three of them are writing Christian-themed music; there's not a lot of difference between what Pinnick is doing and what King David wrote in the Psalms; there is not much difference (in spirit) between Gaskill's lyrics and Job's. I understand I'm getting nit-picky here, but if a band is known to contain Christians and if the songs seem to be coming from that place, whether blatantly Christian in theme or not, it should at least be considered.

Having said all that, I agree with Petergee1. I just think it's not as simple as that to put into practice. --Mitchell k dwyer 03:48, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Part of the question as to what makes music Christian can be aided by thinking about the instrumental music. Progressive music has always included and encouraged the inclusion of much instrumental material. How do you go about categorising this material. Is this based on the song title (if one exists), the character of the piece (very POV), any associated vocal tracks (may not exist). We are left with the declared adherance of the musician. How would we categorise Jeff Johnson for instance, maybe not Prog, but certain this is Christian music, because it is inspired by Christian themes and is the product of a Christian musician. If he is prog, he should certainly be here. Does that help? Lyrics are not the sole arbiter of this issue. Another way to think of it would be to consider say Night on a Bare Mountain by Modest Mussorgsky, or the Peer Gynt Suite by Edvard Greig. I would say they have clear mythological and religious type themes, but have no words. :: Kevinalewis : please contact me on my Talk Page : 10:00, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

In response to Mitchell and Kevinalewis: try to think about Christian (or 'White') Metal. That genre is pretty well defined (insofar any genre can be defined, of course). I'd say that if a band clearly has a christian (or even proselytising) message, it would qualify as christian prog (or metal). Anyway, there's no point in coming up with an accurate definition. As with any genre, crossovers and grey zones will exist. Just try to focus on the lyrics and the message. As for instrumental passages: very few bands are strictly instrumental, and if they are, that would IMO automatically bar them from being a CProg band. BTW, being an atheist, I never thought I would be involved in a discussion like this, but hey... goes on to show how open this WP can be :-) Petergee1 13:05, 16 January 2006 (UTC)