Template talk:Counties of Ireland

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[edit] Historic vs Administrative

I reverted the changes made by User:LocGov because they left the template in an inconsistent state.

• the tildes were intended to indicate repetition of the name of the preceding county. "Fingal~" and "South Dublin~" make no sense.
• the template continues to state "(parentheses) denotes non-traditional counties" even though 3 of the four new Dublin counties are no longer in parentheses.

The current template attempts to combine representation of traditional/historic and current/administrative counties, while enabling both to be distinguished, and showing which of the latter correspond to which of the former. I don't believe putting the administrative counties of Leinster in alphabetical order is an improvement, as it loses some of the information available from the previous format. (South Dublin is the only one not currently in alphabetical order anyway; I believe this represents less of an imperfection.) The reference to the statute book in the edit comment suggests it is desired to emphasise the current administrative counties of the Republic. If this is so, then all the other items (Dublin, Tipperary, Antrim, etc) should be removed for true consistency. I won't vote for that, but if that's the consensus then at least do it thoroughly. Joestynes 03:51, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think in any case cities should be removed Djegan 17:54, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. Cities have the same administrative status as counties. The distinction is as slight as when the Tipperarys were "Ridings" . Dublin City has an area of the same order as DLR and South Dublin. Joestynes 09:34, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Cities have a similar status to counties, but a city is not a county this is why we have Template:IrishCities. Also removing them keeps things neat and tidy. Djegan 18:03, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Template:IrishCities includes Kilkenny, which is not a County borough. Tidiness is fine as long as we're not oversimplifying reality. I would hate to see the Republic of Ireland not having some infobox somewhere which contained all its current administrative divisions. (Template:Australia and Template:Canada include both States/Provinces and Territories.) I realise trying to accommodate both traditional counties and administrative divisions in the same template is going to involve compromises; I just don't believe removing the Country Boroughs is the best available compromise. Joestynes 05:40, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Your quite right Kilkenny is not a county borough but the law makes it clear that this does not predice its right to be discribed as a city [1] and most would agree that this (city) is the more used and recognised definition of the area, certainly from a cultural aspect. Thus it will not be added to the county template nor removed from the city one. However this still leaves us with the duplication, and it is this that mainly concerns me, as the table is at the moment it is neither adminstratively or traditionally correct but also a mixture of cities and counties. Cities and counties in the Republic of Ireland are the "unit of value" administratively but culturally this is almost exclusively the right of counties and I agree that this creates some unique difficulties as a way forward. Theirfore I recommend that we leave the template as it is for the moment as their is little chance of final decision and also a bit of experienced use may be benificial. Djegan 17:58, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree that a single table which includes both cities and counties would be appropriate, in separate sections. Also, until further developments in the identity of the new counties takes place and it becomes more obvious to the public, I think having a separate section for "new counties" (vs. traditional - both appropriately vague) is preferential to trying to integrate them as solely administrative units of historical counties - I know that was not the intention but it is implied by brackets and other formatting. The intention of my link to the Statute Book was not to show current administrative divisions, but to show the cities and counties of Ireland as existing under law. This is the only such list. Within 10 years, it is anticipated that the Dublin counties will be recognised as full counties, with GAA teams, new addresses (and potentially, names) etc -see strategies of Development Boards of respective councils- and so it is highly restrictive that they would be confined to administrative definition in this table. Given the scope of the Local Government Act 2001, and the establishment of County Development Boards in 2002, it is fair to say that the Dublin counties had solely administrative function from 1994-2002. Comparing the Dublin situation to Tipperary would not be apt in this scenario because of the demographics involved. Dublin has been identified as needing more local level identity, by all four Dublin local authorities and by the Dept. of E,H,LG. Whether Tipperary follows suit is a matter for the authorities in that area, indeed people might use the Dublin example to create new county-level identities in Tipperary. I would recommend a revert to a single table listing:

Traditional Counties

New Counties

Cities

With same formatting in all 3 to imply, correctly, that they each have the same status. Tipperary and Dublin need not be altered or formatted differently in the table at this stage. Also, to note that the issue of the administrative counties in NI does not apply if the list is meant to be from an "Irish perspective". It is the view of the Government of Ireland, and OSI mapping, that the original NI counties cannot be altered by administrative sub-divisions of the United Kingdom. That is to say, they can continue to be recognised for all intents and purposes, as they remain in having no Irish legislative status (and moreso, were not replaced by counties). This again is different to the Dublin scenario. I hope this information is of use.

LocGov

I broadly agree with what you have proposed here - it might be ideal to drop the IrishCities template altogetheir and use a single template with all cities and counties? In addition the provinces might best be removed as a method of sorting counties, perhaps in their own section to reduce some clutter? Djegan 11:13, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what LocGov is saying. The various types don't all have the same status. There are:

1. admin+trad Wexford, Sligo, etc
2. admin only Fingal, North Tipp, etc
3. admin city Cork, Galway etc
4. city Kilkenny
5. trad only Dublin Tipperary
6. trad NI Antrim Down etc
7. city NI Belfast L*ndonderry

My basic desire is that the current administrative counties are all given equal recognition. Whatever way historic counties and cities can be accommodated around that is fine. If any counties are to be segregated I would much rather they were the old ones than the new ones. Of course, the Counties of Ireland page itself could do with some rework to make the situation clearer. There are a number of possible reworkings of the template:

• Have separate templates for (1)"adminstrative counties (inc. cities)", (2)"traditional counties", and (3)"cities": The articles for Cork City etc could include both (1) and (3); Tipperary, Antrim etc just (2); Belfast, Derry-City and Kilkenny-City just (3); the rest just (1). The county boroughs and counties could form 2 alphabetical listings in (1), with province-based listings used in (2).
• A single template listing in separate alphabetical sections (1) all current counties (exc. cities) (2) obsolete traditional counties (3) cities. Would need notes for Northern Ireland and Kilkenny-City.
• other suggestions? Joestynes 10:54, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree most with your second proposal but believe that organising by three tiers: (1) the traditional thirty-two counties, purely alphabetic with no provinces (2) the new administrative counties in tipperary and dublin (3) cities of ireland.

This recognises the traditional sense of the counties whilst also integrating new administrative counties and including cities without any undue duplication or separation. Djegan 12:31, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Denoting Counties in Northern Ireland

Up to my revision (16:37, 8 December 2006) there were footnotes for each county denoting whether or not it was in the Republic of Ireland (RI) or Northern Ireland (NI). This meant that every county had a footnote after it which impeded reading, and looked a bit odd, frankly.

Given that a county can only be in one or the other, it made sense only to have footnotes for one case, with the absence of a footnote indicating the other case.

With a view to minimising the total amount of footnote markers, I choose to mark the counties in Northern Ireland. This isn't political: it simply makes sense to have six footnotes instead of 26. This arrangement works particularly well as the six footnotes only appear in the Ulster category.

I feel this made the template easier to read, while conveying the same amount of information: indeed, by stripping out redundant footnotes, it made the information more accessible.

The choice of Northern Ireland seems to have been a bit controversial though: one contributor decided to go with the messier arrangement (26 footnote markers for RI) to avoid the appearance of "supremacism". This is, I feel, an excessive display of political correctness. 26 footnote markers are harder to read than 6 and look worse. It's a simple matter of mathematics. Politics has absolutely nothing to do with it, and shouldn't.

My problem is that since then another contributor, to avoid the argument, has removed all footnotes, damaging the table, and reducing the amount of information it conveys. I have re-instated my version, what do people think? -- Bryan

Personally I think we could dump the whole four provinces divide, or even totally redesign the template as it is very hidious and complicated and is not what a template should be; a simple, easy to recognise summary of reality, instead we have a patchwork of conflicting ideas (administrative counties (of the Republic), cities (with city councils, in the Republic), partition of Ireland, four provinces divide (purely cultural/historic divide), traditional counties.) Djegan 13:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I do agree that it is quite complicated. I would say list all the traditional counties only, using footnotes to denote those in Northern Ireland (the two Ulsters are a bit confusing). I'd say put the lists of administrative counties either in a new table, or in the existing table under a sub-heading. -- Bryan

I would have to go along with Djegan on this one, this template is a mess. An alternative might be a new template, something along the lines of Historic and administrative divisions of Ireland, giving amongst other things;

• 2 states
• 4 Provinces
• 32 Traditional counties
• 30+ Adminsitrative counties(RoI)
• 20+ District councils (NI)

and if something appears on multiple lists, then so be it! I think the inclusion of provinces on the current template adds to the confusion, there is nothing on the template to say that they arent counties, and for someone from outside Ireland chances are they have probably never heard of three of them, and misunderstands the fourth. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fasach Nua (talk • contribs) 22:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC).