Talk:Courlandians

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[edit] Suggested merge

Don`t merge - as far I know this article is about different ethnic group, thought bouth groups are named (almost) identicly - Curonians died out in middle of 17. century, this article is about ethnic group that spoke some sort of latvian/lithuanian creole and died out after WWII. However, as far I remember, there was more suitable name for this group -- Xil/talk 10:26, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on the situation, but if you are right there indeed should be a better name, as "Courlandians" should be synonymous with the people of Courland (current Curonians). The German wiki (de:Kuren) says that the Kuren (Curonians) lived in Courland and northwest Lithuania, and they gave their name to the Curonian Spit. In the early 15th century some Curonians settled the Memelland (Klaipėda Region) and the Spit. Their language adapted to Latvian, so the Curonian language was spoken by fewer people. The neighboring Scalovians (de:Schalauer) mixed their language with Prussian to form Nehrungskurisch (literally "Spit Curonian"), which seems to be the language spoken by "Courlandians". There is no direct connection with the old Curonian language and "Spit Curonian". Olessi 22:34, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Nehrungskurisch was the name I couldn`t remember, it appears to be common name for their language. I recently saw some description that sugested that they were onlooked like Latvians (maybe politicly - there was a region that Latvia gave to Lithuania in 1921 and it appears that they lived somewhere around that area, orginal Curonians surely did), altought as far I know they are usualy thought to be seperated nation, anyway they are usualy called kurši (curonians) in Latvian, but it appears that Latvian linguists use word "kursenieki" (this is as if you would name them curonian -ers or so in english). Here is description from book about baltic languages: Nehrungskurisch (as it was in end of 19. century) was greatly impacted by Latvian, Samogitian, Lithuanian and German. Historicaly it appears to be developed from Curonian, Latvian and Livonian fused together. The book, however, doesn`t mention Scalovian mixing with Prussian according to map in history atalas these two groups bordered each other at Nemuna (it doesn`t analayse Scalovian at all so maybe something is left untold there)-- Xil/talk 20:12, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Courlandians and curonians, self-name kursenieki (new curonians) are the same people. Also Courlandians could be persons who lived in Courland Duchy (1560-1795). When Courland colonised Tobago even today (somewhere I'd read) there are persons with surname Courland. Vulpes vulpes 06:43, 4 August 2006

Based on that information, I am of the understanding that Courlandians should redirect to Curonians, which itself should have a disclaimer explaining the difference between "Curonians" and "Kursenieki". The Kursenieki article should then be copyedited to clarify the differences between the terms (and should primarily use Kursenieki to avoid confusion). Is there a native name for the Nehrungskurisch dialect of the Curonian language (so-called "New Curonian")? Olessi 22:28, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

No, because Courlandians are Latvians who live in Courland (or as Vulpes vulpes pointed out - people of Courland Duchy), I have never heard that somone would call Kursnieki Courlandians, maybe author of the article couldn't come up with a better name. In my oppinion there should be clarification template in Curonians ("If you are looking for inhabitants of Curonian spit see Kursenieki") and this article should either tell about inhabitants of Courland (not very good idea) or it should be a disambiguation page, or it should be deleted. And, since terms Nehrungskurisch, New Curonian and Kursenieki reffer to same language, all articles concerning this matter should explain that and link to Kursenieki -- Xil/talk 20:01, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

It is another problem: in many articles curonians (baltic tribe) are not separated from curonians (ethnic group). Sometimes it's uclear about what curonians are talking about, for example [1] or [2]. In german language too, both groups are called the same name - kuren. But acording wikipedia rules we should use most common and popular names. So, idea with disambiguation page is not bad.--Vulpes vulpes 07:07, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I would just redirect Courlandians to Courland. I was unaware that "Kursenieki" also describes the language, as the article says that the Kursenieki (people) speak a "Latvian language dialect" (currently unnamed). I would mention the Kursenieki as a disclaimer atop Curonians (and vice versa). Kursenieki would also have a link to Curonian language in its disclaimer, as that is where "New Curonian" is discussed. Alternately, Curonian language could be split up into separate articles for the two languages (Curonian language and Kursenieki language) or the information on New Curonian could be merged into Kursenieki. What do you think? Olessi 00:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with all what is said, but language is another topic. I think article about new curonian language only should be expanded. What's correct name of language: new curonian, nehrungskurisch, latvian, or dialect of it - I don't know. In large map of 1905 [3] is written kurisch (lettisch). So, quite different from latvian. Why not written simply latvian? --Vulpes vulpes 10:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Latvian language#Dialects mentions The Middle dialect, the basis of standard Latvian, is divided into the Vidzeme variety, Curonian variety and Semigallian variety. Is this "Curonian variety" the same as the dialect spoken by the Kursenieki? In the absence of new information, I would be in favor of moving the information about 'New Curonian' from "Curonian language" to either "Kursenieki", "Kursenieki language", or "New Curonian" (my least favorite of my suggestions). Olessi 03:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

No, I wrote that and I was not aware that New Curonian is Latvian dialect. The "curonian variety" is a subdialect of middle dialect, it does border New curonian thought, so I'm not sure (see here [4] light gray dotted area is the curronian subdialect). I suggest to merge that with kursenieki (perhaps make a language section there)-- Xil/talk 13:50, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I have turned Courlandians into a redirect to Courland and copyedited Kursenieki and Curonians to clarify those concepts. I touched up Curonian language, but that article was more confusing and I mentioned this on its talk page. Please update and correct any of my edits where applicable. Olessi 23:47, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I suport redirection Courlandians to Courland, but I don't agree that Kursenieki are latvians. Latvian scientist Janīna Kursīte says: "When curonians in 15-18 centuries came from Courland, there was no latvian nation at all, so curonians were not latvians and not lithuanians" "Kai 15.-18. gadsimtā viņu senči atceļoja no Kurzemes uz Kuršu kāpām, latviešu nācijas kā tādas vēl nebija, tāpēc viņi neizjuta sevi kā Latvijas vai latviešu daļu, arī ne kā lietuviešu daļu." [5]. I don't know how this designate, but is this a preserved identity or curonian speaking germans, or something? By the way, Paul Kwauka is dead (allready in 1970) and Richard Pietsch is very old. --Vulpes vulpes 13:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC)