Talk:County Londonderry

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
Northern Ireland This article is within the scope of WikiProject Northern Ireland, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Northern Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the assessment scale.If you are a member of the project, please rate the article and then leave comments here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.

Article Grading:
The article has not been rated for quality and/or importance yet. Please rate the article and then leave comments here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.

WikiProject Northern Ireland tasks:

  How and why was it decided to put this article at Londonderry instead of Derry? -- Kwekubo 01:22, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Londonderry is the official name of both the city and the county. So what name should we use in official articles?

(1) The official name? or, (2) The name preferred by Irish nationalists?

Prior to the recent Northern Ireland troubles, this controversy did not exist. Everybody accepted that the official name was Londonderry. Many called it Derry for short without any political prejudice whatsoever. You could say either Londonderry or Derry without raising any tension in any company.

The objection to the official name Londonderry is a modern thing dating to the late nineteen seventies. It has been stirred up by Irish republican activists to the extent that most people are now afraid to call it Londonderry. Most guide books call it Derry because they are scared of offending Irish Nationalist opinion. The same guide books never have any problems as regards offending Unionist opinion.

Irish nationalists seem to get confused over the fact that their preferred name 'Derry' is not actually the official name of the city. (211.72.91.97 07:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC))

I agree, the county is called Derry not Londonderry. The city is a different matter and has decided to call itself "Derry" (Although it has never got it officially changed from Londonderry). Out of respect of the majority of its residents, the city should be referred to as "Derry". Duey Finster 21:22, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

There is a short discussion of this over at Talk:Derry. --Ikari, 19 Mar 2004.


Contents

[edit] Dhoire\Doire

This is just a question regarding the Irish name for the county, I know the city is Doire. Are they used differently grammatically or is there another reason for two names? :: Keith :: 18:42, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

"Doire" = "Derry"
"Dhoire" = "of Derry"
"Contae Dhoire" = "County of Derry"

In other words, "Dhoire" isn't a separate word, it's just the genitive of the same word. Hope that helps. Rinne na dTrosc 22:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] One Thing

I know this sort of thing has been gone over before but I have an issue with the wording in this article. It says when the county was created it was named after it's main city of Derry (later Londonderry). However when the county was created the city was called Londonderry by that point so this sentence is very misleading. Maybe it should be slightly reworded so it was named after its main city of Londonderry (which has subsequently been renamed back to it's orginal name of Derry). Ben W Bell 12:39, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

You are correct. The county has never been called Derry, it was created from the previous County Coleraine, which with parts of Donegal, Tyrone, and a bit of Antrim, was called County Londonderry, after the walled city. :: Keith :: 15:31, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] i cringe...

Is it just me because every time I think of this article I cringe at that "County Londonderry/County Derry" title in the info table, it is uneccessary and should simply be "County Londonderry" as per the article title. Djegan 19:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

You are just as ignorant as Mr. Bell. The name of the county is Derry or Doire. Nothing else IMHO. However, I will abide by agreed compromise. The naming of the county Londonderry in the info box would defeat the purpose of said compromise. Arrogant people like yourself should be banned. (Ste01 02:19, 05 September 2006 (UTC)

It'd be so much easier to write County (London)Derry, would it not?

thats the most moronic suggestion yet "(London)Derry", "Londonderry" and "Derry" are two separate names —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.240.229.67 (talk) 18:28, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Vote

Is it possible to have a vote as to what the article is to be titled?? while i have no problem with it being titled 'Londonderry' this is certainly not the title most people use when refering to the county. I think that is also possibly the case when it comes to the majority who actually live in the county?194.237.142.21 14:53, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

  • This has already been discussed in depth at Talk:Derry. The compromise reached was to call the city Derry and the county Londonderry. Demiurge 15:01, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
The county is called County Londonderry, never had a different name, nothing to vote on. Ben W Bell 15:44, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes it did, it just was never officially called County Derry.


ˑ Ben W Bell you clearly are completely ignorant in this issue. I do not feel that your individual small-minded and bigoted views should dictate the name of a county. In a democratic world, the majority vote rules. If a poll was taken with regards to this county's name, you would find its name most certainly is County Derry (CM).

  • Change: The county should be called Co. Derry, and so should this article.If this went to a vote, the majority of the city would vote for Derry, and the majority of the county would vote for Co. Derry. (Derry Boi 13:23, 30 April 2006 (UTC))
Sorry but the county is called County Londonderry it's that simple. I personally don't care what it's called, but the fact is that the county is called County Londonderry. Polls don't matter, just the simple fact of what the county was named. Ben W Bell 16:13, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm with Ben on this, historically the city changed name from Derry. Historically, the county changed name from Coleraine (plus bits of other counties). The wikipedia vote came up with a reasonable compromise - it's a pity the vandals cannot respect this. Blowmonkey 20:57, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, it is supposed to be completely neutral and unbiased, yet at the same time informative, the official names have to be used because those are the keywords people will most likely use when researching such a place, the current compromise where both names are mentioned in the infobox shouldnt cause any dispute —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.240.229.67 (talk) 18:38, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Coat of Arms

The coat of arms showing in the infobox here for Co. Londonderry is the crest of the city (or the city council, I'm not sure) - is this not a mistake? beano 10:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I think you are right, the county crest should be this. theKeith 11:31, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Well i am going to take doen the one being currently used, as it is for the city and not the county. Also the county would not currently have a COA for it being that it is no longer an "established county" and that any COA to be used would be historical, which i am kinda leary about adding to the the infobox. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 07:52, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Most of the other Northern Irish county infoboxes have the historic crest. theKeith 09:24, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
If most equals 2 out of 6 then i would guess you would be right, the only other two that have it are County Antrim and County Fermanagh, previoulsy a user added cret to the pages, but they were the GAA crest for the county boards and not the historic county crests. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 05:27, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Derry

Doire/Contae Dhoire is the Irish for Derry/County Derry. There is no direct translation for Londonderry in the Irish language. Just thought I would point that out.--Play Brian Moore 23:34, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted it, but just seen this comment. My belief is that a direct translation of "County Londonderry" is not unresonable or unprecidented - but if their is little consensus or practice of it in Irish then please feel free to revert my revert. Djegan 17:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nationalist/Unionist majority

I know Co Derry has a nationalist majority, but is there any fact links to which the exact percentage is given? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Derry Boi (talk • contribs).

Sorry I keep forgetting to sign the last couple of days (Derry Boi 15:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC))

The county is called Derry/Doire. NOT Londonderry. The county existed as Derry long before Northeren Ireland became part of the United Kingdom and there is no reason why the name Londonderry should be recognised. It would be like invading Devon tomorrow and calling it Dublindevon. Stupid idea, isn't it....? (Ste01 02:10, 05 September 2006 (UTC))

Um sorry but you really need to check history. There was never a county called Derry before the creation of Londonderry. County Londonderry was formed from County Coleraine and a few smaller bits of other counties. There never has been a Couty Derry. Ben W Bell talk 06:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm when did I ever say it shouldn't be called Co Derry?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Derry Boi (talk • contribs).
Derry Boi! ~~~~ after every comment, lol. Anyhoo, Ste01, you should take a look at WP:IMOS which contains a little bit of information about the Stroke City/County issue and how we deal with it on Wikipedia. Back on topic and I have no idea where that data comes from but it sounds right. You could look up CAIN at this address.   Keithology  Talk!  12:07, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Damn, sorry. Keep forgetting to sign. (Derry Boi 15:29, 5 September 2006 (UTC))

[edit] South Derry

I'm thinking of making an article called "South Derry".

Now South Derry isn't necessarrilya defined place with an official name. It is a term used by many in South Derry to say where they're from, to describe the location of a town or village, but most reguarly it is used in GAA circles to talk about South Derry Clubs, South Derry leagues, etc. While not really having a specifically defined border, most take it to be the area of South Derry GAA clubs. It is an area like South Armagh is, or North Down is, or East Belfast is, etc. It's never called "South Londonderry", therefore that has no need to be the title. Opinions? (Derry Boi 10:30, 7 October 2006 (UTC))

Why not start your article off as a section of this article called South Derry? Then, later, County Londonderry may eventually become too big and need to spin off South Derry as a separate article.
I am afraid that readers might get irritated or even confused by the extensive overlap between several area articles, such as: South Derry, County Londonderry, Cookstown District Council, Magherafelt District Council.
If you do write a good South Derry article, I editors will be tempted to copy and paste a lot of it into County Londonderry anyway, to make the county article less stubby. Just a thought. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 11:31, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I know I would be tempted :) --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 11:38, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
If we create a new article in this style make sure it does not conflict with WP:NOR, if we are talking about south Derry (note the lowercase) then that hardly deserves an article in its own right. We do not create placename articles for each point of the compass. Djegan 20:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
But South Derry is a place its its own right. If someone asks me where I'm from, I don't say "County Derry", or I don't say "Derry", I say South Derry. It's like saying you're from South Armagh, or as mnay Dubliners say they're from the "Northside" or the "Southside". Especially in GAA circles it is a common term. (Derry Boi 21:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC))
Where would it be? South Londonderry (UK Parliament constituency)? --Henrygb 22:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
It appears, at first glance, that "Now South Derry isn't necessarrilya defined place with an official name" (sic) and "But South Derry is a place its its own right" is a conflict in your opinion. Either it is one or the other. If it is a defineable place then it should be possible to show reputable sources. I hope it is not a pov-fork to avoid WP:IMOS. Djegan 15:03, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Meant to say "South Derry isn't necessarrily a place defined with an official ". BUt it is generally taken to be the area that covers the South Derry GAA league. (Derry Boi 18:58, 8 October 2006 (UTC))
More recently (i.e. to 1972) there was South Londonderry (NI Parliament constituency). [1] gives "The part of the Rural District of Coleraine which consists of the district electoral divisions of Bovagh, Bovedy, Garvagh, Hervey Hill, Kilrea, and Lislea. The part of the Rural District of Magherafelt which consists of the district electoral divisions of Aghagaskin, Ballynease, Ballyronan, Bellaghy, Castledawson, Clady, Desertmartin, Gulladuff, Maghera, Magherafelt, Moneymore, Newbridge, Ringsend, Rocktown, Salterstown, The Loop, Tobermore, and Upperland." Remember that this is for pre-reform districts. I must admit, I would have thought Draperstown was in the south of the county, but apparently it was in "Mid Londonderry". --Henrygb 20:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Does anyone else here hate it when there is such a prefix onto a county?

Not one self respecting Irish person would ever call Derry, whether the city or the county, with the application of "London" before it. To have such a prefix is hated in the Republic and by Nationalist's and Rebulicans in the North. So really is anyone else bothered by applying "London" onto something Irish?

Reply

Few people ever seem to enquire into the heart of this matter. This is all about the bigotry of some Irish catholics who despise anything that is British. They want to have the word London removed from Londonderry, purely because London is British. That is what it is all about.

The word London is in the name Londonderry for very good reasons. It was the City of London that set up the whole City of Londonderry in the 17th century. Any village called Doire, that was there before the walled City of Londonderry was built, is entirely irrelevant. The modern city originates in the 17th century. It was originally a protestant city. Anybody who reads an account of the siege of 1689 will understand the historical importance of this city in the minds of protestants. By about the year 1884, catholic numbers in Londonderry overtook the protestants due to migration of catholics from neighbouring county Donegal into the Bogside area to the west of the city walls.

The catholics control the city today. This is all the more reason why they should show respect to the protestant minority and drop this shameful and divisive dispute once and for all. The dispute is motivated by shear bigotry on the part of some catholics who want to wipe out all traces of the British origins of the city. The protestants managed to cling unto power in the city between 1884 and 1968 despite being in the minority. However, those days are now over. The catholics are in control and that is unlikely to change. Can they not therefore move forward to the future, and stop winding the protestants up. The city is called Londonderry. Drop the matter, and if you want to call the city Derry for short, then do so. But official documents should always call it Londonderry.

If there was any bad government in the past when the protestants were in control, it was due to fear of a loss of control of a city which is a Jerusalem in the minds of the protestants. The catholics who now control the city are in a large majority and they should show magnamity to their protestant brothers and drop the bitterness of the past. The protestants will not get control again. The catholics should therefore encourage the promotion of references to the protestant history of the city as a gesture of goodwill. (211.72.91.97 11:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC))


Well the thing is the county is called County Londonderry, that is it's name. It's not simply a case that it is a County Derry prefixed with a London, the entire county was created as County Londonderry from County Coleraine. The name of the county hasn't altered since under any official means and therefore is called County Londonderry. Some may like the name, some may not, but the end reason for it being called County Londonderry on Wikipedia is simply a matter of that being its name. Ben W Bell talk 07:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Before the 1960s, most people in the area called the city and county "Londonderry" formally but usually "Derry" informally, and had done for the previous 350 years. This "hate" (and its reaction on the opposite side) is modern and was probably taught. Also note that every county in Ireland was originally created by the English (or the Normans). --Henrygb 16:30, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
"efore the 1960s, most people in the area called the city and county "Londonderry" formally but usually "Derry" informally, and had done for the previous 350 years."
Don't know where you pulled that from. Derry Boi 16:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I assume you know the words of The Sash. This [2] from 1965 will do as an example in reverse where Derry and Londonderry seem to be used almost at random and the emotions are directed at the situation, not the name. The city's coat of arms (with or without a harp) seems to be tolerable to its council and residents, and the top clearly indicates London (though perhaps they don't realise that). --Henrygb 20:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, this "hate" is quite artificial and very difficult to understand even as an Irishman, and ultimately the counties were not an Irish creation anyway. Why should "County Londonderry" be anymore offensive to an Irishman than the English name "County Dublin" or "County Cork"? Djegan 16:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../c/o/u/Talk%7ECounty_Londonderry_80a2.html"