Talk:Counter-Reformation

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus for the move --Philip Baird Shearer 22:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I would like to propose that this article be moved to "Catholic Reformation." There are several good reasons for this. First, it was a reform in the Church. "Counter Reformation" makes it sound like it was anti-reform, which is clearly not true. Second, "Counter Reformation" also makes it sound like it was only a response to the "Protestant Reformation." This is only partially true. Many of the reforms of the Catholic Reformation are not particularly related to Luther or his successors. These aspects include: the profound spiritual movements of the spanish mystics and the French school of spirituality as well as the development of the seminary syste --Vaquero100 07:51, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Counter-Reformation → Catholic Reformation — The term "Counter-Reformation" implies that the movement was anti-reform. "Catholic Reformation" is the more accurate term as it describes a reform within the Catholic Church. This has become the academically accepted term. --Vaquero100 05:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

• I support such a move, for the reason that Catholic Reformation is the preferred term among many scholars today. Maestlin 14:52, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose strongly: The term Counter Reformation is by far the most commonly used term in English for this historic movement. Even the Catholic Encylcopedia uses the term Counter Reformation as an article title. Even if there is a growing movement among some scholars as some above suggest to use Catholic Reformation the term has not established itself in common usage. This is an encyclopedia and it seems more fitting of an encyclopedia to use the commonly used term for an event. I think using the title Counter Reformation with a mention of the term Catholic Reformation in the first paragraph is sufficient - this is also what Encyclopedia Britannica does. I certainly see no reason to abandon the more commonly used term as the article title for one that is far less used. --Westee 13:24, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose Counter Reformation is the common name. --Philip Baird Shearer 16:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Strongly Support Catholic Reformation is the term currently favored by academics and Counter-Reformation is a misnomer at best. As a reform movement within Catholicism, Catholic Reformation is the only term that makes sense. Those searching for Counter-Reformation will find the article without difficulty by redirect. --Vaquero100 19:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose per Westee. Duja 10:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Support The renaming does make sense, and is used. Popular culture uses Counter reformation, but popular culture also uses AD/BC dates, and at wikipedia many editors have pushed that issue as well. Catholic Reformation is the NPoV term, IMHO. Dominick ^(TALK) 14:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Strongly support per Vaquero100. Grumpy Troll ^(talk) 16:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC).
• oppose abstain When we encourage editors to use veifiable referenced material, it is suggested that we use an unrefferenced title! (or at least far less referenced) ClemMcGann 17:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Very strong oppose I had never even heard the term "Catholic Reformation" before coming to this talk page. It is quite commonly referred to as the Counter-Reformation even by Catholic scholars. [1] —Mira 01:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  Comments moved to discussion section below. —Mira 01:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose Counter-Reformation is the most common in both popular usage and scholarship.--Aldux 18:04, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
• weak support The name "Counter-Reformation" is generic and must go.[2][3][4][5][6]. Where the article should go is less clear. The term most familiar to me is actually "Catholic Counter-Reformation." "Catholic Reformation of the 16th Century" might work too. Gimmetrow 23:58, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
• Weak oppose - I personally feel that Catholic Reformation is more accurate and seems to be gaining usage among (admittedly, most catholic) scholars. However, it has not yet even come close to overtaking Counter-Reformation in common usage. Perhaps once the next generation of text books comes out with the new name, then we should change it. A redirect and a bold in the intro (as exist now), I strongly support. Perhaps a more thourough discussion of the name within the article would be appropriate, as a side note. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 03:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Comment Would anyone object if the circular redirect and signed comment were removed from the front page? Maestlin 16:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I just removed the signed comment without reading your comments here. --84.153.53.206 17:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

A singular voice of opposition is not enough to justify ceasing the question. --Vaquero100 00:31, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Vaquero100, suggesting a move is a legitimate action and there are procedures for doing so. There are templates for signalling all sorts of problems with articles. But editorial comments about the article, like yours, do not belong in the article itself. They belong on the talk page. Part of Wikipedia's policy is to avoid or at least minimize self-reference in the text of articles. Removing your comment does not mean anyone is putting an end to the question, because the question is properly inquired here, on the talk page. Maestlin 16:00, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me if this has already been addressed, but what do recent undergraduate history texts call it? Tom Harrison ^Talk 20:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Moved from survey section I had never even heard the term "Catholic Reformation" before coming to this talk page. It is quite commonly referred to as the Counter-Reformation even by Catholic scholars. [7] —Mira 01:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Additional note: A Google search gives 631,000 results for "Counter-Reformation" and 99,000 for "Catholic Reformation." —Mira 01:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't see the relevance of this page. Maestlin 19:45, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the google hits, the term "counter-reformation" is very generic. Searching for "counter-reformation" + "catholic" (so that it at least has some relation to catholicism) drops the hits to 338,000 results. Note The Arts of the Anglican Counter-Reformation. Gimmetrow 16:27, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Maestin, you have cited the most controversial and least repected of "Catholic theologians." Read again more closely Richard McBrien's article and you will see he is listed as a dissident and his principal work is banned for use with college students. --Vaquero100 20:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn't cite it, someone who didn't sign their comments did. Please review the history of the talk page. The only thing I wrote is "Sorry, I don't see the relevance of this page," referring to the link to some amazon.com review. Maestlin 20:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

What is the source for the claim that his principle work is banned? (PS the "Additional note" below is not by me either.) Maestlin 23:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that, that was me who forgot to sign. And this is perhaps a better link [8]. The book I linked to uses "Counter-Reformation" in one of its section titles, and actually throughout the whole thing (I own a copy). And, as his article says, McBrien is a professor of theology at Notre Dame, he can't be as horrible as you seem to think he is. —Mira 01:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

More links The Catholic Encyclopedia uses "Counter-Reformation." The official Vatican site uses both.[9][10] —Mira 02:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Count at least one other supporter for this proposal. Know that he is not a Catholic, but a firm believer that this movement was a response to Humanism before it was a response to Protestantism (a response to Humanism which counted among its tennets a rejection of intercessors, and therefore the Catholic Church). Another thing: why is there no mention of catechism in an article about the Catholic Reformation?

I don't think whether or not this was a reaction to the Reformation is at issue here. We're determining what this event is most usually called, not whether or not we think the name fits. From the Wikipedia naming conventions: (emphasis mine)

• "article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize"
• "Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists."
• "Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things."

—Mira 05:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)