Talk:Cosmotheism/Archive 5

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

I'm restoring (yet again) the text that Paul Vogel keeps deleting rather than editing. Others are more than welcome to weigh in on whether the deleted text is NPOV or not. BCorr|Брайен 01:06, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

The deleted text was just complete POV nonsense, and most especially, that stupid and "invented" term by David Gerard, which NO TRUE COSMOTHEISTS actually consider themselves to be!-PV

1 Piercean
2 Evidence?
3 A POV against many of PV's POVs
4 I told you so...
5 A response by Moby

Piercean

Piercean is not an aceptable term, its used by no one, as paul suggests. find a better word or way to say it, as I tried to do awhile back Sam Spade 02:08, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

So what do they call themselves, or do they just claim to be the entirety of Cosmotheism - which they aren't? The only problem I had with your previous wording was that it seemed to claim the site was officially associated with Pierce himself in some way - David Gerard 07:38, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

No Cosmotheists anywhere do call themselves "Piercean", which is the point. The http://www.cosmotheism.net or Cosmotheist website is not officially associated with Pierce at all, but, it was dedicated to him due to his three main cosmotheist writings: "The Path", "On Living Things", and "On Society".-PV

Evidence?

"all could also be said to be Pantheist"

Mormons can also claim that Carl Sagan a Christian but that does not make it true and this kind of propaganda does not belong in Wikipedia. JWSchmidt 03:24, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The "evidence" is from Webster's Unabridged Dictionary of 1996/1998, of which states that "pantheism" and "cosmotheism" are true synonyms, meaning "All in GOD and GOD in ALL". Which Mormons can claim Carl Sagan as one of their own? Where is your evidence for that "propaganda", JWSchmidt?-PV

Providing a definition for "X-ism" and then saying that the views of some dead person are in some way related to the definition of X-ism does not mean that the person was an X-ist.

I agree, unless of course, those views were quite obviously x-ism and x-ist!-PV

"Carl Sagan .... could also be said to be Pantheist" <- Only by someone wishing to re-write history, an activity that is not promoted by Wikipedia.

Hardly.

Carl Sagan's own pantheistic words and writings has and had indicated that he was indeed a "pantheist".-PV

Sagan often discussed the idea that it is the unity of the cosmos that provides some scientists with a sense of wonder. He was often asked about god and never embraced the idea that god is anything more than a creation of people seeking to express their sense of wonder. Sagan felt comfortable expressing his sense of wonder without introducing god into the equation beyond the MENTION of how OTHERS make a larger role for god. JWSchmidt 14:46, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Not exactly true. You need to re-read or watch Cosmos again, JWSchmidt.-PV

You support the positive claim that Sagan in some way had the idea of "Cosmos = God". It is incumbent upon you to provide the evidence to support your claim. JWSchmidt 01:12, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

That they claim them is relevant to mention. Go on, remove it and watch the edit war ... I'll stand back here with the popcorn - David Gerard 08:18, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

No, it is only true by definition.

Again, the "evidence" is from Webster's Unabridged Dictionary of 1996/1998, of which states that "pantheism" and "cosmotheism" are true synonyms, meaning "All in GOD and GOD in ALL".-PV

The Cosmotheism page seems like a war zone for religious zealots. When they restrict their efforts to such fringe pages they probably serve a marginally useful community function. Eventually they will grow tired of the war and leave Wikipedia in peace.

The only actual "religious zealots" are some [personal attack removed] here that only wish to add their own POV and their own biased and POV "invented terms" like "Piercean" into a serious article on the religion of cosmotheism or classical pantheism. These [personal attack removed] had re-started the "edit war" with their own additons of such obviously "obnoxious" and POV statements and "invented terms" and such false and typically slanderous and biased and POV links, which I have only deleted to maintain a Wiki NPOV.-PV

Please don't delete external links because you disagree with their POV -- BCorr|Брайен 13:52, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)

I didn't delete those two external links because I had disagreed with them, but, only because these both had really nothing to do with COSMOTHEISM, the actual subject of the article, nor even with White separatism, and they were also obviously very biased POV's verses any Wiki NPOV's, and they were falsely equating "White supremacy" with "White separatism".-PV

You are deleting them because you don't agree with them. Your reply to BCorr proves that. - Tεx τ urε 16:02, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Nonsense. I don't agree with Brad Whitsel's nonsense article, either, but since it actually addresses "Cosmotheism" it should stay as a "criticism".-PV

I have reverted 191's edit to this talk page since it duplicated all the text and created a mess. It looks like a cut-and-paste error. - Tεx τ urε 16:09, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Ok. Deleted POV links not related to article.-PV

The duplicated entries are on this talk page. Your deleted links are your own POV and not necessarily correct. - Tεx τ urε 17:03, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What are you talking about, now, Texture? You are not making any sense.-PV

See for yourself: [1] - Tεx τ urε 22:00, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

A POV against many of PV's POVs

I have just joined with others in reverting a deletion of links that PV seems insistent on preventing others from seeing. Some people can't seem to get the hints that most rational human society, and maybe indeed the whole universe, is in some sense against their particular forms of bigotry, far more than they are in any way for it.

I am a rather patient person, and have simply observed without comment for several days now the attempts at honest dialog and commentary, and the attempts to disrupt and discourage it, that have been made on some of the pages that PV is inclined to promote his POVs. Hypocrisies exist to the extreme, when people strain to make positive and absolute associations with people who would likely be repulsed and revolted by their particular views and ideas, and seek to eliminate any direct criticism of such views as they are inclined to promote as "irrelevant", and unworthy of any consideration.

It is a certainty that labels are always limited in their application, and can be dangerously misused and abused by those who delight in manipulating others impressions and will in dishonest ways. The most absurdly obnoxious and pathetically narrow minded of bigots will often rely upon them and various connotations that they have, to try and make their own particular bigotries seem almost sane and reasonable. Sometimes they will succeed for a time, with some people who are ignorant of some important details, but where information is freely available few remain fooled for very long.

It is not an entirely original observation to say that when a person is inclined to interrupt others, and to break up or eliminate other people's coherent statements of their views, opinions, and expressions of facts, it usually reveals a marked lack of having many of their own. Such behavior is often manifest among those unusually obsessed with the idea of winning over others they like to presume are "inferior", and in making any efforts they can at seeming right rather than in making any sincere effort at being so. One who is not familiar with the actual progression of the attempts at dialog, as they have occurred, can become very confused as to who, or is not, actually speaking and what points are attempting to be made. That certain individuals insist on making such interjections as disrupt the flow of others expressions, to thoroughly ravage any attempts by others to make their points in a cohesive manner, reveals an extreme rudeness, and an extreme inability to even tolerate cohesive and rational dialog and argument. They say such things as if you don't like their rudeness, then "Don't talk to me", in attempts to mantain their own vain sense of superiority.

From one of the sites of advocacy of "Cosmotheism" one can find such statements as "My purpose is the Creator's Purpose" – This may be true of any individual, but is true of all individuals as well… and their own particular sense of their own purposes, and that of God's, are not therefore synonymous. Some people's primary purpose often seems to be to show others how stupid and bigoted a human being can become. It proceeds to "My path is the Path of the Creator's Self-realization", and "My path is the Path of Divine Consciousness", which again can apply to any individual no more than it applies to ALL individual's and ALL paths, something some people seem intent on ignoring or denying. And finally: "My destiny is Godhood". Most pantheists that I am aware of would totally reject the idea of mortals becoming "gods" let alone "God", and would vigorously assert that though God is indeed in all, and that all are in some sense "within" God, mortals do not ever become God, and cannot. The part may be entirely of the total and ultimate Reality, but never is nor can be the totality of Reality. Those who would insist otherwise are to that extent solipsists, rather than pantheists. I believe that most would assert that some mortals can and do become aware that their own existence, and that of everyone else's is to some extent, and for some reasons and purposes a portion of God's ultimate will and omnipresent being. Even so, some people are inclined to focus on the truths of love, and the love of truth, on honest and respectful communion with other souls and minds in a spirit of appreciation and generosity, and might be compared to brain cells and nerves, eager to form mutually beneficial connections, and some are more focused only upon themselves, their narrow concerns, and upon that which is to be excluded, ignored, and denigrated, often very improperly. These individuals can be more appropriately compared to cancer cells consuming an organ's resources while obliviously disdainful of the health of the whole organ or organism of which it is a part, or in a far more familiar and common analogy, to rectums. When the pressures of poorly digested facts and ideas are at work, there can often seem to be no end to the foulness that can emerge from them. One can refrain from calling any specific person a "rectal cavity full of bovine excrement", and still describe the metaphoric associations that are at work, in such ways as to make it plain as to whom, and to what ideas, such terms and metaphors most aptly apply.

I thoroughly expect that PV will break up my assertions with interjections of his own, and would be delighted if in this one instance at least he could actually resist his impulses to be rudely reactive, and actually prove me mistaken. - Moby 01:17, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I am "Rudely reactive"? Hardly. LOL! :D

Was your rant above, Mody, really just [personal attack removed]? Absolutely. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Racialist [personal attack removed] -PV

Sir, your behaviour on this talk page falls outside the bounds of our No personal attacks policy. Please familiarize yourself with this policy immediately, cease all personal attacks, and desist from engaging in this activity, or you risk being blocked from editing. - Fennec 13:44, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Moby, you watch this too. Fennec 13:47, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

These individuals can be more appropriately compared to cancer cells consuming an organ's resources while obliviously disdainful of the health of the whole organ or organism of which it is a part, or in a far more familiar and common analogy, to rectums.

Thank you for making my points so clear! LOL! -PV

Deleted these two slanderous, false, and POV links that are not related to the Cosmotheism article.

Pseudo-Pantheism (Encyclopedia4U)

It is generally agreed that the most widespread form of pseudo-pantheism in existence today is the view sometimes termed "cosmotheism." Although an older edition of Webster's dictionary defines 'cosmotheism' as synonomous with pantheism, the term has taken on certain connotations in modern usage, owing chiefly to its use by Dr. William Pierce to describe his racially-hierarchical system of thought. Cosmotheism as it appears today, promoted chiefly on the internet, is widely considered to be a racist ideology which has appropriated the terminology of pantheism in order to legitimize itself.

A Blemish on the Blossom: Pantheism and White-Supremacist Hate Groups by Esther Hugenholtz (Pantheist Index)

However, we should be alert and try to ‘ban’ these sort of nazi-characters from our own Internet pages and discussion forums. We should inform those new to Pantheism that the large majority of Pantheism is in fact benevolent and that these hate-groups luckily form a tiny, but loud, minority. Let’s make sure they stay that way.

Within our organizations we can formulate even more clearly our egalitarian and democratic stances to make sure that the message gets across as clear as possible. Formulating a Credo, like the World Pantheist Movement has done, may have a twofold effect: firstly, it clearly states our ethical position and secondly, it deters those with bigoted views from joining or seeking contact.

Neo-nazis try to infiltrate all sorts of religions and philosophies in order to recruit. We are not the only victims in their book. Nonetheless, their presence is a blemish on the blossom of Pantheism. But the blossom in itself is still as radiant as ever. Don’t be deterred from Pantheism because of a few hate-filled fringe groups.

It is quite clear just who or whom is the actual "HATE GROUP" and just who or whom is actually quite "hate-filled".

Another case of Psychological projection at it's typical worst!!!

-PV

Restored links. Your assertion that they are slander is POV. The links are not POV, although the linked pages may be... and they are labeled as criticism. - Fennec 15:53, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

BS!

They are quite SLANDEROUS as anyone linking to them can CLEARLY SEE.

Fair criticism of one's religion is one thing, but, these two are so obviously quite false and biased and POV subjective.

Neither one fairly belongs within the article on Cosmotheism.-PV

Restored links - useful balance for the article - Tεx τ urε 15:57, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Useful balance?????

Hardly!!!

Maybe then we should provide such biased and POV and clearly slanderous links critical of "Judaism", or of any other "religion", within the rest of the Wiki Encyclopedia?-PV

See Judaism#Critics for such an external link - Tεx τ urε 16:35, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Let us see if we can add quite a few more "external links" to it:

[2] - Critics of current modern "Jewish/Zionist Supremacism" and the immorality of "Malignant Narcissism" and its typical lying hypocrisy and psychological projection

and then we will watch and see the [personal attacks removed] banning and reverting etc, etc, ad nauseum, that would soon follow?-PV

PS--That didn't take very long to prove my proven point at all! LOL! :D http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Judaism&action=history

Depends on if they are responsible links and not more appropriate somewhere else. I think there is some latitude in the "critics" section. - Tεx τ urε 16:45, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

It is quite clear that the two links I had deleted from cosmotheism criticism were not "responsible ones", whatsoever. However, it is also clear that the POV bias and slander of cosmotheism is really so over the top and is so completely false as only to make any actual and valid criticisms of cosmotheism also look quite stupid and petty and false and POV biased. If that is your foolish and POV intention, then, so be it.-PV

PS--The "latitude" for actually determining any such "credible or fair or inflamatory analysis or criticism", http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Judaism&action=history is really only given to all such typical lying hypocrites, obviously! LOL! :D

Let's try removing inflamatory analysis that does not exist in the critical links on this page, shall we? Be fair about it if you plan to do it. - Tεx τ urε 22:02, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You don't seem to have any problem with the "false and inflamatory analysis" of those two "critical links" of yours to the religion of Cosmotheism, though, do you? That is why your asking for "fairness" for Judaism when you and your ilk are being so "unfair" yourself, regarding the criticism of cosmotheism is the just height of lying hypocrisy, Texture.-PV

Are you aware that I do not write content for this article as you claim? I have only tried to prevent content removal or twisting that is not accepted by the majority. I am trying to be fair here just as I am trying to be fair at Judaism. Check my record. - Tεx τ urε 16:09, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

To further clarify, those "two.. links" are not mine nor did I call them "critical" in any comment or summary - Tεx τ urε 16:14, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"Fair"? For "Balance"?

Sure.

Like this, for example?

Pseudo-Pantheism

Pseudo-Pantheism has been deleted in accordance with Wikipedia:Votes for Deletion. If you wish to recreate the article please discuss it at Wikipedia:Votes for undeletion. - Fennec 15:43, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"False accusations" are "personal attacks" are they not?

Would you ever ban yourself for ever doing so?

You had ONLY deleted the NPOV version of the article, and then added the slanderous POV version of it to cosmotheism in a link!!!

It is quite clear that what articles or links "deserve" deletion really has nothing to do with either "fairness nor even with factual accuracy or balance" but only with the [personal attacks removed] of a mob or cabal of censors [personal attacks removed] that actually do not uphold the wiki NPOV, whatsoever.-PV

There is no cabal. - Fennec 16:08, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The actual and objective facts here do indicate otherwise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AndyL#White_Separatist -PV

For example for Judaism and the Talk Pages:

Critics Is there any objection to listing an example or two of critics to Judaism? It does not need to have a POV analysis attached to it but should show who the critics are. - Tεxτurε 22:40, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yes. Anti-Judaism and Anti-Semitism have no place on the Judaism website, and that is what these two links were. I have no objection to the article covering conflicts between Jews and other groups (e.g. Christians). I also think there is value to covering conflicts among Jews. But as a culture that has been in the minority for virtually 2,500 years, it is inappropriate and offensive to have a section on "critics." By the way, I wouldn't support a link on the "Christianity" page on "critics." Can you imagine a link on the German page called "critics?" Sure, the article can cover the Nazi period, or talk about current issues dividing Germans -- but that isn't the same thing as criticizing "Germany." Of the two links I deleted, one was purely anti-Semitic. The other was in my opinion a silly but certainly not offensive critique of a book by Telushkin. It can't be represented as a critique of "Judaism," it is practically a book review. Put it someplace else. Slrubenstein

The above is by another user. My text is below: Paul, what is your objection to "critical analysis" versus "analysis" for infidels.org? It is an accurate statement that the analysis does not agree with Judaism. - Tεxτurε 16:20, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Texture, the point is that if you can allow any pov "criticisms" of one religion, ie. cosmotheism, then the same should hold true for Judaism.

Therefore, this link:

[1] - Critics of current modern "Jewish/Zionist Supremacism" and the immorality of "Malignant Narcissism" and its typical lying hypocrisy and psychological projection This link should be allowed as a "criticism" or you must remove the similar offensive pov links from cosmotheism.

The title given to this link is POV. A more approproate NPOV title would be indicate somehow that the content at the other end of the link claims this, that, and the hypocrisy thing. Furthermore, I urge you to state your point, don't prove it. - Fennec 17:20, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Any hue and cry of "anti-semitism" or "nazism" etc. ad nauseum for such a link is not relevant, if one is being hypocritical in actually allowing similar pov and slanderous links on cosmotheism, or any other religion, within Wiki articles.-PV

PS-For quite clear examples of their typical lying hypocrisy and the removal and deletion of any "criticisms" of Judaism from the page history section on Judaism such as [3].

(cur) (last) . . 14:10, 13 Apr 2004 . . RK (Removing (again) a link which is clarly Nazi and anti-Semitic.)
(cur) (last) . . 14:04, 13 Apr 2004 . . 24.45.99.191
(cur) (last) . . 00:59, 13 Apr 2004 . . Slrubenstein
(cur) (last) . . 22:55, 12 Apr 2004 . . Mkmcconn (This link does not belong, if Wikipedia aims to be a credible source; but at least its contents should be more accurately described, as long as it remains)
(cur) (last) . . m 22:34, 12 Apr 2004 . . Texture (Reverted edits by 68.237.92.227 to last version by Texture)
(cur) (last) . . 22:17, 12 Apr 2004 . . 68.237.92.227
(cur) (last) . . 21:59, 12 Apr 2004 . . Texture (removing POV - link description should not be an analysis of what would be found)
(cur) (last) . . 21:13, 12 Apr 2004 . . 24.45.99.191
(cur) (last) . . m 20:46, 12 Apr 2004 . . Slrubenstein (Reverted edits by 24.45.99.191 to last version by Slrubenstein)
(cur) (last) . . 20:37, 12 Apr 2004 . . 24.45.99.191

Since any organization of your statements was lost I won't try to insert this in the proper place. Your latest addition to this talk page seems to be a rant against many people and not me. I have tried to support your inclusion of criticisms into Judaism although I disagree that you should be allowed to add detailed analysis to the link description. If you don't appreciate my support I will back off and let you deal with the issue in the all-or-nothing manner that seems to be the only solution for you. I would rather see your POV included in others POV in a stable manner. I'm sure you don't agree with how I see it, but what can I do. - Tεx τ urε 18:07, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I have revised the critical link description there, at Judaism to be far more NPOV and factually accurate, even if what it links to is not.

However, I am quite sure that your ilk will still delete it and then will still only keep the exact same kind of critical slanderous and pov linked nonsence about cosmotheism, like the [personal attacks removed] that they usually and almost always are.

We shall see.-PV

I formatted your new addition and did not find it preblematic in the current form. BTW, what is my "ilk"? - Tεx τ urε 18:26, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Ok. FYI: Entry Word: ilk Function: noun Text: Synonyms TYPE, breed, character, description, kidney, kind, nature, sort, stripe, variety It is only up to you, to some extent, to actually decide that question.-PV

No, it isn't up to me. I am asking you to define your terms as you have used them. You have made a statement of my "ilk" will do this or that and I'm curious what you may be mislabelling me as. - Tεx τ urε 20:55, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

This same "ilk", perhaps, that always refuses to learn the lessons of history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AndyL#White_Separatist -PV [signature added by No-One Jones]

I find this to be a personal attack. You know nothing about me and are grouping me with some unrevealed group that does not learn from its history. - Tεx τ urε 14:30, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

That is not any any "personal attack", whatsoever.

However, your falsely calling me a "vandal" and then falsely "censoring me" and then falsely "banning me", was actually a "personal attack". Here too:

"Thanks for the heads-up on PV. It looks like it is temporarily being managed. The problem is, anyone who uses anonymous IP numbers is hard to block effectively. A temporary solution is to protect the page. I am a sysop but I have been involved in the dispute so I cannot protect the page. I suggest that if he reappears you ask another sysop to block the page. I brought up the matter on the list-serve and it was pretty much ignored. I think we have managed to control PV by reverting, but if he comes back there is a need for something more serious and I am not sure if the mediation process is the appropriate thing. Slrubenstein

The above is by another user. My text is below: anon IP are normally hard to block but he obviously has dedicated IPs that would be easy to block indefinitely. The same ones get used repeatedly making me believe (depending on time of day) that these are work and home. - Tεxτurε 20:16, 20"

Reread your quote above now that I have separated out the only portion by me. - Tεx τ urε 22:26, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Vandal is a term I use because it applies in my opinion. I don't know why you put "censoring me" in quotes since that is your claim, not a quote from me. I have never banned you. (I am involved in the conflicts that I would ban you for, therefore, I am constrained from doing so.) - Tεx τ urε 15:15, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The ilk of which you are a demonstrated "member" is the same ilk or group of [personal attacks removed] that have here "censored" any valid criticism of Judaism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Judaism by falsely calling it "Anti-semitism" and that have only allowed or that have always falsely inserted and reverted only their own [personal attacks removed] pov's and only their own [personal attacks removed] slanders and "criticisms" of other religions, such as cosmotheism, but, do not allow any valid "criticism" of their own Jewish or Marxist "religion" or "dogmatisms": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AndyL#White_Separatist

Really? Then why was I fighting to get your critical links included in Judaism? - Tεx τ urε 15:15, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Jewish/Marxist slanderous "Criticisms" of cosmotheism:

The Turner Diaries and Cosmotheism: William Pierce's Theology of Revolution by Brad Whitsel (Nova Religio)

Gods of the Blood: The Pagan Revival and White Separatism, by Mattias Gardell (ISBN 0822330717)

A Blemish on the Blossom: Pantheism and White-Supremacist Hate Groups by Esther Hugenholtz (Pantheist Index)

Pseudo-Pantheism (Encyclopedia4U)

If you are not a member of that "ilk", then don't BEHAVE like such "ilk", and lie and censor any valid "criticisms", or only allow your own pov and quite slanderous and false "criticisms": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AndyL#White_Separatist -PV

ps-I have revised the critical link description there, at Judaism to be far more NPOV and factually accurate, even if what it links to is not.

However, I am quite sure that your ilk will still delete it and then will still only keep the exact same kind of critical slanderous and pov linked nonsence about cosmotheism, like the hypocritical liars and bigots and psychological projectionists that they usually and almost always are.

We shall see.-PV

I have tried to work with you and in return you attacked me. - Tεx τ urε 15:15, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Really?

Some "help"?

Reread your quote above now that I have separated out the only portion by me. - Tεx τ urε 22:26, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You had falsely and personally insulted me by calling me a "vandal". What do you expect? I have demonstrated the "lying hypocrisy" and psychological projection of all those that have "slandered" cosmotheism in their false and slanderous and pov Jewish/Marxist criticisms, whilest these same pov bigots only reverted and banned anyone that linked to any valid "criticisms" of Judaism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AndyL#White_Separatist -PV

PS--For example:

From: Fred Bauder <fredbaud@...> Subject: Re: Paul Vogel's anti-Semitism Newsgroups: gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.english Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:44:26 +0000

Believe it or not, it is best to request mediation on this matter with him, although I would vote to accept this matter for arbitration as it sits now (although I know certain other arbitrators would not).

Fred

From: "steven l. rubenstein" <rubenste-GtutR9TLYbWHXe+LvDLADg <at> public.gmane.org> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l-g2DCOkC13y2GglJvpFV4uA <at> public.gmane.org> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 15:04:58 -0400

To: wikien-l-g2DCOkC13y2GglJvpFV4uA <at> public.gmane.org Subject: [WikiEN-l] Paul Vogel's anti-Semitism

Paul Vogel has been adding an anti-Semitic link to the Judaism page. I explained in detail on the talk page why I think this is inappropriate, and I deleted the link. Although some other users believe that such a link is acceptable as long as it is clearly identified, I think if Wikipedia is going to have any links to anti-Semitic material it should be on the anti-Semitism page.

In any event, after I explained why I deleted the link, Vogel responded, "Any hue and cry of "anti-semitism" or "nazism" etc. ad nauseum for such a link is not relevant, if one is being hypocritical in actually allowing similar pov and slanderous links on cosmotheism, or any other religion, within Wiki articles.-PV " -- a response that ignored my explanation entirely.

I replied, "I am not "allowing" slanderous links on the cosmotheism page. Two rights do not make a wrong. If you have a problem on another site, seek mediation -- don't take out your frustrations here."

And then Vogel made clear the anti-Semitic logic by which problems on the cosmotheism page are really "Jewish" problems: "Aren't you? Each one of those 4 slanderous POV articles and each one linked as "criticisms" on the cosmotheism page have been written by "Jews", and you have not ever protested and ever insisted upon their actual "removal" have you? The problem is on THIS SITE, WIKIPEDIA. The lying hypocrisy of your own "ilk" is responsible for this nonsense, and so it actually is YOUR OWN PROBLEM. Unfortunately, there is no effective medication for psychological projection on your and your own ilk's part, but, hope springs eternal!.-"

Do I need to explain my outrage? Vogel doesn't identify the people working on the cosmotheism as wikipedians but as "Jews." He doesn't identify me as a wikipedian but solely as a "Jew." And because I am a Jew, he holds me responsible for what other "Jews" have done on another site.

This use of "Jew" as a slur; the identification of my "ilk" as hypocrites, reeks of anti-Semitism. If this itself does not merit banning, I certainly think some strong action should be taken.

Thanks,

Steve

Steven L. Rubenstein Associate Professor Department of Sociology and Anthropology Bentley Annex Ohio University Athens, Ohio 45701

So, no response to your false accusation that I banned you? No response to the fact that I tried to support your additions of criticisms to Judaism? I supported your point that it was not above similar critical links. I did not expect your attack after I did so. I have learned. - Tεx τ urε 16:17, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

So, no apologetic response to your false accusation and personal insult of calling me a "vandal"??? Your own censorous "ilk" had banned me, even if you, personally, did not.

"User:66.2.156.69 Anonymous troll vandalising Judaism, and Holocaust. Reverts etcAndyL 03:13, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC) Do we need to quickpoll this user? If he continues, I'd feel comfortable giving him a day off on my own discretion - and I suspect dozens of admins would agree with me. Pakaran. 03:11, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I agree with you Pakaran. This is an IP user, and the activity seems to be simple vandalism that clearly violates NPOV. If the user continues I will ban the IPs for 24 hours and protect any of the pages if nessecary, such as the user coming back under another IP and re-editing the pages in question with the same vandalism. Seems a simple issue to me. --Flockmeal 03:17, Apr 14, 2004 (UTC)

As I understand it this person had been blocked at one (or more) points for 24 hours with no effect. Now that it is clear that he is an anti-semite using Wikipedia as a platform to spread anti-semetic views, I believe his should be banned. His contributions to articles are at the very best contentious -- but usually they amount to no kmore than adding obscure and self-serving links to neo-nazi websites. On talk pages his anti-Semitism is clear. When I wrote, on the Judaism talk page, that a link to an anti-semitic site is inappropriate, he replied that people were placing inappropriate remarks on the cosmotheism page. This is very bad behavior at wikipedia -- no contributor should "punish" one page begause of something that happened on another page. More importantly, he is punishing me for what others have done, an example of collective guilt that makes perfect sense in his anti-semitism, but not in a wikipedia community. He practically said that Jews control wikipedia, which is a classic anti-semitic stance. I think he should be banned. Slrubenstein 12:31, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

No change, no improvement. When is there going to be some action?AndyL 03:41, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC) Just ban this [personal attack removed]. Don't go through quickpolls since this is unambiguous vandalism. And do it quick. Ban the IP before he/she gets a user name, which complicates things when we need to ban vandals. 172 20:20, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC) I've just banned the IP. Along with hard-banned User:Zog, this [personal attack removed] has no place on WP. 172 20:26, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC) This should not be the place to list vandalizing anons. I agree with 172. - Tεxτurε 20:38, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC) This user has not vandalized anything, only expressed a strong POV. silsor 20:43, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC) I was not voting. Only agreeing that anon vandals should not be Quickpolled and should be banned. I haven't voted (and I don't even see anywhere to vote.) - Tεxτurε 20:54, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC) Silsor, this user wasn't guilty of, say, childish Michael-style vandalism, but he/she's in league with other POV trolls/hard-banned vandals (e.g., JoeM and Zog) who couldn't function as constructive editors or writers on WP. 172 21:05, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC) Vandalism is deliberate mischief, but it seems this user believes what s/he is writing. Antisemitism is not against any policy and neither is being "in league" (which I have not seen) with other people. I have reviewed all of this user's edits and I think we need to treat his/her POV in the same way we would treat any other user's POV. silsor 21:16, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)

User:216.99.245.135 possibly same anonymous troll as 66.2.156.69. Same behaviour as above. AndyL 03:13, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

See my comment above. Slrubenstein 12:31, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)"

It is clear that those "criticism" links to cosmotheism are both very slanderous and false, and yet you have "done nothing" to have them deleted. My "attack" only came after your own quite "false accusation" and "personal insult" of "vandalism" about me. Learn from your own bias and slander of others, Texture, such that people in such selfish and pov "glass houses" should not throw such stones!-PV

You can continue to quote other people but you have made no proof of me. I openly admitted my opinion of your earlier activities as "vandalism". I explained why on numerous occassions. I won't take your time to define it again.

I am not any "vandal", regardless of your own "definition" of it.-PV

You haven't answered my question. Instead you quoted a lot of other people who you feel are personally against you and tucked into those quotes is one from me: "I was not voting. Only agreeing that anon vandals should not be Quickpolled and should be banned. I haven't voted".

You hadn't answered nor apologized for your own false accusation and personal insult of "vandalism" and your own bigoted agreement with banning me, thereby. -PV

You repeatedly ignore my attempt to help you. I guess you can't generate a good "righteous indignation" by giving credit to any assistance you get. Feel free to reply although I may not. This is not a conversation, discussion, or debate. It is a chance for you to rant against others. (made clear by the verbatim posting of this in Judaism and here.) - Tεx τ urε 17:16, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I find it quite curious that you consider falsely calling me a "vandal" and being in agreement with banning me, thereby, "helping me" or "assisting" me??? What I would consider "helpful" or "assisting" would be your own "righteous indignation" of insisting that alternative POV's be allowed within Wikipedia and that a "cabal" of Wikipedia pov bigots not be allowed to only have their own POV's represented here, as opposed to upholding the Wiki NPOV policy? My rants are all about maintaining the Wiki NPOV, and that means ALWAYS allowing alternative POV's within ANY articles, and whether you "personally support" them or not.-PV

PS--If you allow such "criticism links" to cosmotheism then the same should apply to Judaism:

[snip]

I supported you when you first added critical links to Judaism. I reverted the first attempts to remove the links without discussion. (Check the page history and discussion page.) I later agreed that specific links were excessive and not valid for balance. Later efforts instead provided links inside wikipedia that seemed appropriate and some of the critical links were kept. I was satisfied with this compromise as it retains links critical of Judaism. I don't agree with your current additions and will not enter into further discussion about Judaism on the Cosmotheism talk page. The discussion is not related to Cosmotheism. - Tεx τ urε 18:57, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Stop deleting the valid links to "criticisms", http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Judaism&action=history just because you don't happen in your own pov to like them and do falsely call them "Anti-Semitic", such as [4] Thanks! :D -PV

While I agree that there should be critical links to Judaism I do not agree with the extreme links being suggested by Paul. - Tεx τ urε 17:52, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Why not?

You seem to agree with the "extreme" critical "links" to cosmotheism??? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmotheism#Criticism If you allow these Jewish/Marxist slanderous "critical links" within the cosmotheism article, then, so should you allow my "critical links" to Judaism, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism#Criticism both here and above and within that article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cosmotheism -PV

Your "lying hypocrisy" has just been exposed above and made quite clear.

Obviously, any such "censorship" of "criticism links" is only ok with you and only when certain "topics" and only when a certain "religion" or only when some specific and certain "ilk" is "concerned", right Texture?

[snip rant -- Paul, if you must babble about a different article, do it on that article's talk page. This page is for talking about cosmotheism, not whatever article is sending you into a tizzy right now. —No-One Jones]

(cur) (last) . . 01:50, 20 Apr 2004 . . Mirv (talk:cosmotheism is for TALKing about COSMOTHEISM, not ranting about whatever subject happens to be on your mind)

My "tizzy"? LOL! Hardly. :D

Well, Mirv, I am talking about cosmotheism, and the "ilk", like you, that is responsible for slandering it, lying hypocritically, and then censoring the TRUTH by always falsely calling me a "vandal", "troll", "anti-Semite", "Nazi", etc, ad nauseum, or whatever false pov bigoted "personal insult" that you and your "ilk" has smeared me with in your own typical [personal attack removed]. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AndyL#White_Separatist If you don't like it, stop doing it.-PV

Okay, then, explain what this text has to do with cosmotheism . . . and this too, please. —No-One Jones 02:29, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[text from talk:Holocaust snipped as irrelevant to this article]

To be clear: By "explain" I did not mean "paste the text back in again"; I meant "tell me why that text from talk:Holocaust is relevant to cosmotheism". It's not that difficult, really. . .

--No-One Jones

Indeed!

That is why I did so, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Cosmotheism&oldid=3260950 and that is why you had "deleted it".

What they ALL DO have to do with cosmotheism is that the TRUTH is considered SACRED to all TRUE COSMOTHEISTS, and for its OWN SAKE, period.

This is not something that I would really expect either you [personal attacks removed] to ever actually understand.

Therefore, we do not appreciate such censorous "lying hypocrites". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Quickpolls

-PV

I told you so...

But, you had to find out for yourselves. Ah well. Soon he will be gone, I'm sure. Wikipedia will join the other 20-30 internet sites and forums that have banned him.

Nat 03:00, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"20-30 other internet sites and forums have banned" me, Nat?

Really?

Even if it actually had been that many, what "Naturyl", "Nat", the Director of the Universal "Pan-Atheist" Society, and his "ilk" has ever honestly ever actually said is WHY, and that being that they can't stand nor abide ANYONE posting only the WHOLE TRUTHS of REALITY, as opposed to only THEIR OWN SELFISHLY SUBJECTIVE and EGOTISTICAL and EGOISTIC POV and DOGMATISMS.

IF ever I was banned or censored, from any site or forum, that has been the actual factual REASON, totally regardless of what such [personal attacks removed] like "Nat" have ever said only to "slander me" and to "personally insult me", and to "smear me" and to "character assassinate me" and all only to ultimately "ban and censor" me and thereby CENSOR and BAN ANY ALTERNATIVE POV or even ANY NPOV that they won't actually ever uphold nor allow. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Naturyl -PV

nobody likes an 'I told you so' ;) Sam Spade 04:47, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Indeed! :D And most especially, those that do so, and by doing so, are only being typical [personal attacks removed] and censors! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Naturyl -PV

PS--Here is my own "prediction", Sam. If you continue to uphold "fairness" and "rationality" and the "Wiki NPOV", against these "ilk" [personal attacks removed], here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Paul_Vogel and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AndyL#White_Separatist and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sam_Spade/_-_archive_April_2004#I_must_object etc. ad nauseum... then soon you will be the "next target" of their [personal attacks removed] pov slander and smear campaigns and then you will be banned and censored, too!

But only if he "greatly" increases his "use" of quotation "marks" - DavidWBrooks 14:47, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What a "comic". Keep your "day job", David. :D

Perhaps mediation?

Given the disputes you're involved in, have you considered the use of mediation between you and those you're disagreeing with as a possible way to resolve the disputes? Jamesday 21:28, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"Mediation" will not likely resolve the disputes, as there is a cabal of "lying hypocrites" within Wikipedia that will not listen to reason nor act in "good faith", and will do and say "anything", including "bald-faced" lies, in their slanderous campaign to have me banned and censored and mostly due to my "unpopular" religion of cosmotheism that requires me to uphold the WHOLE TRUTHS of REALITY, for their own sake, without regard to egotism or self-delusion.-PV

I don't claim to be on your side 100%. I only said I tried to help you in Judaism in adding a critical links section. I later came to agree that not all your links were appropriate. I will vote to have you blocked if you continue in this manner. Your approach is disruptive and not helpful to a community effort. If you would like to reform and become a useful contributor I will help you as much as I can although I will retain my own opinion and disagree when your statements seem incorrect or excessive. From here it is up to you. You can continue to claim your cabal of anti-Pauls or you can contribute to a group effort. - Tεx τ urε 22:33, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"I don't claim to be on your side 100%".

Indeed! What I would consider "helpful" or "assisting" would be your own "righteous indignation" of insisting that alternative POV's be allowed within Wikipedia and that a "cabal" of Wikipedia pov bigots not be allowed to only have their own POV's represented here, as opposed to upholding the Wiki NPOV policy? My rants are all about maintaining the Wiki NPOV, and that means ALWAYS allowing alternative POV's within ANY articles, and whether you "personally support" them or not.-PV

"I only said I tried to help you in Judaism in adding a critical links section."

"Critical links" that were only "certified Kosher" and NOT actually very critical of either Judaism nor of "Jewish Supremacy", and nowhere near as "slanderous" nor as pov as were the "critical links" to cosmotheism, which was the actual point.-PV

"I later came to agree that not all your links were appropriate."

Why not? You seemed to agree with the "extreme" critical "links" to cosmotheism??? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmotheism#Criticism If you allow these Jewish/Marxist pov slanderous "critical links" within the cosmotheism article, then, so should you allow my pov "critical links" to Judaism, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism#Criticism both here and above and within that article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cosmotheism -PV

"I will vote to have you blocked if you continue in this manner."

I would vote to have you and your own cabal and own ilk banned and blocked for your typical pov "double-standards" and for your pov [personal attacks removed]. -PV

"Your approach is disruptive and not helpful to a community effort."

And they said these same hypocritical lies about Socrates and Jesus and Bruno and Copernicus.-PV

Lying hypocrisy, slander, bearing false witness, and always attempting to ban and to censor alternative pov's is bigotry and tyranny and this selfish "behavior" has no place in any "community effort" to create a NPOV and a factually accurate and objective encyclopedia.-PV

"If you would like to reform and become a useful contributor I will help you as much as I can although I will retain my own opinion and disagree when your statements seem incorrect or excessive."

If you and your [personal attacks removed] ilk of [personal attacks removed] ilk would like to reform, and would like to become truely useful and HONEST and TRUTHFUL contributors to this NPOV Wikipedia Encyclopedia project, then please do keep your own false pov opinions to yourself and just respectfully agree to disagree with me and even when your own ilks statements are proven factually incorrect and even when they too are so obviously and excessively pov.-PV

"From here it is up to you."

On the contrary, it is actually only up to you, and your own [personal attacks removed] ilk to reform only their own [personal attacks removed] behavior and stop their own [personal attacks removed] and abandon their own slanderous "double-standards".-PV

"You can continue to claim your cabal of anti-Pauls or you can contribute to a group effort. - Tεx τ urε 22:33, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)"

Actually, I can continue to do both, for as long as there actually is such a cabal and ilk of [personal attacks removed] that continues to censor, ban, revert and block my NPOV edits for greater factually accuracy and objectivity, which is my best "contribution" to this group effort of a NPOV encyclopedia that reflects many and not just ONE BIASED POV, of ONE ILK of [personal attacks removed].-PV

Examples of [personal attacks removed]

User is blocked From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Your user name or IP address has been blocked by Hadal.

The reason given is this:

Personal attacks and trolling.

To Vogel: I will double the length of this block if you try to evade it again.

"Personal attacks and trolling"????

I do consider your "reasons" to be deliberately false "personal insults" and your additional "threat" of doubling the length of the block equally hypocritical and tyrannical.

You should be not be allowed to "block" any users in this way and in this quite clearly selfish and abusive and vile misuse of administrative power.

You have also abused the TRUST that the Wiki higher ups here have actually entrusted in you when you are so selfishly and deliberately abusing that power.

If this is what the Wiki has devolved into, then this project and Wiki Encyclopedia will very soon lose all credibility with the rest of the users. -PV

COMPARE THE CRITICISMS

Compare the biased and pov "criticisms" linked http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmotheism#Criticism to this far more "objective" and less biased and more NPOV interview by Dr. Griffin with the late Dr. Pierce regarding his own and quite unique "interpretation" of cosmotheism:

[snip lengthy cut-and-paste] [see [5] for full text]

SOME BEAR CROSSES OF TRUTH

Indeed, the "right" things ONLY being what was Politically correct for his time, due to the irrational bigotry and emotional hatred and censorship of any such dogmatic and lying and hypocritical or Personal Theisms, (see the "Mosaic Distinction" by Jan Assman) and their selfish ilk. This tragedy has been repeated for many centuries and it has only cost us hundreds of years of real progress for Humanity as a Whole. As today, as thousands of years ago, and for very much these very same reasons and just as in the murder of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia_of_Alexandria Hypatia of Alexandria], and of Jesus, beforehand, and of many others, by all such similar ignorance and selfish bigotry-PV

PS-Some bear crosses of TRUTH, whilest some others just bear false witness: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Cosmotheism&oldid=3419768#SOME_BEAR_CROSSES_OF_TRUTH http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=5&u=/ap/20040430/ap_on_re_us/court_demjanjuk

-PV

Some Famous and Historical Cosmotheists/Pantheists of note:

Anaximander (611-547 B.C.E.) - Greek philosopher and astronomer who conceived of the essential unity of the universe, arising from one primordial substance.

Xenophanes (c.560-478 B.C.E..) - Greek philosopher who supplanted the many Olympic gods for one god immanent in Nature. He identified divinity with the living physis (Nature).

Heraclitus (c.535-c.475 B.C.E.), Empedocles (c.495-c.435 B.C.E.), and Democritus (c.460-370 B.C.E.) - These famous Greek philosophers held varying conceptions of the unity of body and spirit, Nature and God.

Zeno of Citium (c.334-c.262 B.C.E.) - Greek philosopher who founded Stoicism (from the ‘stoa poikile’ or ‘painted porch’ in Athens where he lectured). Zeno and later followers, including Cleanthes (331-232 B.C.E.), Chrysippus (280-207 B.C.E.), and Epictetus (55-135), formed the first pantheistic school of philosophy. They identified God with Nature and viewed everything as composed of one substance (fire or energy), condensed into the various elements of the physical world. The universe formed the condensation of God “in whom we live and move and have our being.” (later St. Paul of Tarsus borrowed this Stoic saying and applied it to Christianity). The Stoics saw history as pre-determined cycles in which the world was eventually consumed by fire, and then renewed, in endless repetition. The calm acceptance of this divine natural order brings happiness. “Ask not that events should happen as you will,” said Epictetus, “but let your will be that events should happen as they do, and you shall have peace.”

Lucretius (c.99-55 B.C.E.) - The Roman poet and philosopher advanced a theory that the universe came into being through the working of natural laws in the combining of atoms.

Marcus Aurelius (121-180) - Roman emperor and Stoic philosopher. Aurelius believed “All things are implicated with one another, and the bond is holy...for there is one universe made up of all things, and one god who pervades all things, and one substance, and one law, and one common reason in all intelligent animals, and one truth.” He also said “every part of me will be reduced by change into some part of the universe, and that again will change into another part of the universe, and so on forever.”

Plotinus (204-270) - Neo-Platonist mystic philosopher identified as one of the giants of western spirituality. Plotinus describes reality as a string of divine hierarchies or hypostases, with a tendency to condense the Absolute (God) into a singular ultimate reality from which all things emanate. His student Porphyry (c.232-c.305) further refined his mentor’s pantheistic outlook.

Proclus (412-485) - A poet, scientist, philosopher, and one of the last teachers of the Platonic Academy in Athens. Proclus affirmed a pantheist neo-platonist view in writing on Nature: “...Nature generates, augments and nourishes all things... An animal is from Nature; a stone, wood, a tree, and the bodies which you see are from Nature and her maintaining. Nature is the blood of the elements, and the power of mixing which brings to pass the mixtures of the elements in everything in this sublunary world.... Nor is Nature of any color, yet a partaker and efficient of all colors: also of no weight, nor quality, but finally the fruitful parent of all qualities and things. What is therefore Nature? God is Nature, and Nature is God: understand it thus: out of God there arises something next to him. Nature is therefore a certain invisible fire, by which Zoroaster taught that all things were begotten, to whom Heraclitus the Ephesian seems to give consent."

Pseudo-Dionysius (c.500) - Also known as ‘Dionysius the Areopagite’ (with ‘Pseudo’ indicating the uncertain attribution of his works), a 5th/6th century Syrian monk considered the founder of Christian mysticism. Borrowing ideas from the Neo-platonists Proclus and Plotinus, Pseudo-Dionysius envisioned God as the ‘Divine Nothing,’ beyond Being and form, radiating throughout the world as a kind of energy. Johannes Scotus Erigena translated the monk’s writings and incorporated them into his Christian Pantheism.

Johannes Scotus Erigena (c.810-877) - Scholastic philosopher, born in Ireland, who’s major work, On the Division of Nature, declared "Ultimately, God and creation are one in the same....Since Nature, the Creator of the whole universe, is infinite, it is confined by no limits above or below. It encompasses everything itself, and is encompassed by nothing." ‘John the Scot’s’ views, remarkable for the time, were condemned by the Church as heresy.

Mansur Al-Hallaj (c. 858-922) - One of the foremost Islamic Sufis (named for “suf”[wool] garments worn by disciples of Abu Sayyid, a forerunner of Sufism) who expressed ecstatic love for God, conceived as a unity of man/nature/cosmos. He was put to death for proclaiming "Enel Hak" (I am God), identifying himself, and everything else, with Allah.

Abraham Ben Meir Ibn Ezra (1089-1164) - Spanish rabbi, poet, philosopher, and mathematician. Ibn Ezra wrote an influential textbook, The Book of Number, and popularized the symbol Zero. Scholar Doron Zeilberger notes that “he was an extreme pantheist and neo-Platonist, who influenced Spinoza in his abstract conception of God.”

Averroes (1126-1198) - Spanish-Arab philosopher, jurist, and physician also known as Ibn Rushd. His works set forth rationalism, pantheism, and the denial of immortality. Scholar Jacques Maritain writes “All things in reality are one because all things in reality are God. This was Averroistic pantheism. Because all things are one in the mind of God, followers of Averroes concluded that the one intellect of all men was the intellect of God, and thus the distinction between God and his creatures soon vanished.”

David of Dinant (12th century) - A Belgium-born pantheistic philosopher who fled to France after his "Quaternula" (Little Notebooks) were condemned by the Church in 1210. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, "David was a pantheist. He identified God with the material substratum of all things." This substratum consisted of material, intellectual, and spiritual elements having one-in-the- same essence, called God.

Amaury of Bene (d.1207?) - This French professor taught that "God is identical with all that is, even evil...there is no other life, and man's fulfillment, therefore, must be in this life alone," according to religious scholar James Thrower. Amaury's followers formed a sect known as the Amalricians, condemned by Pope Innocent III for "insanity rather than heresy." Church officials had Amaury's bones exhumed and cast onto unconsecrated ground, while some of his adherents burned at the stake for their beliefs.

Ibn Al-'Arabi (1165-1240) - Spanish Sufi mystic poet who voiced pantheist/panentheistic concepts. He said “God is essentially all things… The existence of all created things is His existence... God sleeps in the rock, dreams in the plant, stirs in the animal, and awakens in man.” Arabi choreographed divine dancing (whirling dervishes) and inspired Rumi, the famous Persian poet.

Rumi (1207-1273) - The Persian mystic Jalal-e-Din Mohammed Molavi Rumi authored numerous love poems, sayings, and the “Mathnavi,” called the Koran of Sufism, which contains 24,660 couplets in seven books. The Mathnavi discusses metaphysics, religion, ethics, and other topics, with a focus on achieving union with the divine. He subscribed to the belief that matter, man, and God compose basically a single entity and essence. Historian P.N.K. Bamzai refers to Rumi as “the greatest Pantheistic writer of all ages.”

Yunus Emre (ca.1241-1320) - Turkish literary figure renowned for his poetry intertwining Sufism, Humanism, and Pantheistic ideas. An article on the Republic of Turkey web site states, “As a pantheist, Yunus Emre believed that God is immanent in the universe. He is not independent of, apart from or above the cosmos, but inclusive of it and identical with it. To him, all matter is imbued with spirit or consciousness, and acquires higher values only through love.” Emre wrote “Whoever has one drop of love/ Possesses God's existence,” and “The universe is the oneness of Deity/ The true man is he who knows this unity/ You better seek Him in yourself/ You and He aren't apart-you're one." Johannes Eckhart (c.1260-1327) - German theologian, known as Meister Eckhart, considered one of the greatest theorists of mysticism. He voiced panentheistic and pantheistic ideas. Author Thomas Casey refers to Eckhart’s “emphatically pantheistic writings.” Eckhart declared “God is the innermost part of each and every thing. All things are contained in the one.” He considered gratitude the primary religious response, declaring “if the only prayer you every say is ‘thank you’ it will be enough.”

Nicholas Cusanus (1401-1464) - A German philosopher who bridged the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. Churchman 'Nicholas of Cusa' held a pantheistic concept of deity, describing God as "the beginning, the middle, and the end of all things, the center and circumference of all that is..."

Leonardo da Vinci (1452-1519) - The Italian painter, engineer, musician, and scientist has been called a supreme example of Renaissance genius, possessing one of the greatest minds of all time. Although da Vinci painted religious subjects, like "The Last Supper," priests accused him of heresy and flagrant anticlericalism. Biographer Serge Bramly observes that da Vinci believed in a God "...though not perhaps in a very Christian God; rather one closer to the ideas of Aristotle or the German theologian Nicholas of Cusa, and prefiguring the God of Spinoza. He discovered this God in the miraculous beauty of light, in the harmonious movement of the planets, in the intricate arrangements of muscles and nerves inside the body, and in that inexpressible masterpiece the human soul."

Hamzah Fansuri (16th century) - A famous Sumatran Sufi poet, the first to pen mystical pantheistic ideas into the Malay language. Fansuri’s Pantheism derived from the writings of the medieval Islamic scholars. He perceived God as immanent within all things, including the individual, and sought to unite one's self with the indwelling spirit of God.

Michael Servetus (c.1509-1553) - An early Spanish Unitarian theologian burned at the stake for his beliefs. Religious scholar Robert Corrington writes that Servetus implicitly embraced “a pantheism that found god to be coextensive with nature...(and) laid the groundwork for a universalist pantheism, which rejected a transcendent, sovereign, deterministic and punitive God.”

Giordano Bruno (1548-1600) - An Italian philosopher imprisoned for eight years and then burned at the stake for his pantheistic beliefs. He described a "unity that embraces all, which is the infinite universe itself, or God." H.J. Birx writes, " Bruno professed a pantheistic view of reality, espousing the idea that the supreme single necessary substance is God or nature, which encompasses every particular object, relation , and event that exists potentially or actually in the universe...Since God is totally immanent for Bruno, his pantheism challenged and superseded the medieval belief in a personal God who transcends the world, as well as all later beliefs in deism and panentheism."

Giulio Cesare Vanini (c.1585-1619) - Also known as Lucilio Vanini and Pompeo Uciglio, the Italian Carmelite friar, and later teacher, aristocrat, and government official, imprisoned and killed for his pantheistic ideas. Author Lynne Schultz states “For Vanini, natural law was the divine. He rejected the idea of an immortal soul and was one of the first thinkers to view nature as (an entity) governed by natural laws. He also suggested that humans evolved from apes.” Vanini spurned Christianity as a fiction invented by rulers and priests to secure their power, a stance that forced him to flee from place to place to avoid Catholic authorities. Vanini wrote a book in 1616 entitled “De admirandis naturae reginae deaeque mortalium arcanis” (“of the marvelous secrets of the queen and goddess of the mortal ones, nature ") which held that divinity could not be rationally conceived outside of Nature. The book triggered his condemnation and savage execution in Toulouse at age 34, just 19 years after Bruno’s martyrdom. Persecutors removed his tongue before they strangled and burned him to death at the stake. Vanini displayed incredible courage to the end-- he pushed back a priest assisting the torturer and exclaimed “I’ll die as a philosopher!” Described as a charismatic man with verve, irreverence, and charm, who ‘collected patrons like flies around honey,’ many mourned his death.

Benedict Spinoza (1632-1677) - Renowned Dutch philosopher and perspicacious proponent of Pantheism. Many scholars consider his great work, Ethics, the clearest and most rigorous exposition of a pantheistic religious position in all philosophic literature. He conceived the universe as a single substance, which he called alternately God and Nature, capable of an infinity of attributes. American philosopher George Santayana described Spinoza as "one of those great men whose eminence grows more obvious with the lapse of years. Like a mountain obscured at first by it foothills, he rises as he recedes."

Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe (1749-1832) - German writer and poet who Lord Bryon called 'the monarch of European letters." Goethe identified himself with Spinoza's pantheistic view of reality and declared "he who rises not high enough to see God and nature as one knows neither."

Ludwig Van Beethoven (1770-1827) - The German musical genius universally recognized as one of the finest composers of all time. Joseph McCabe states “The great musician was reared a Catholic but quit the Church and adopted Goethe's Pantheism. Although he composed a Catholic mass (Missa solemnis) which an authority described as ‘perhaps the grandest piece of musical expression which art possesses’ he remained a Pantheist to the end.”

William Wordsworth (1770-1850) - A celebrated English poet and a leading exponent of the romantic movement. Wordsworth often evoked rhapsodic pantheistic feelings in his works. He saw outward natural forms as visible expression of the spiritual force in Nature:

"To every Form of being is assigned... an active Principle:--howe’er removed From sense and observation, it subsists In all things, in all natures; in the stars Of azure heaven, the unenduring clouds, In flower and tree, in every pebbly stone That paves the brooks, the stationary rocks..." (The Excursion, Book IX)

Caspar David-Friedrich (1774-1840) - Noted German Romantic landscape painter fascinated by megaliths (neolithic burial stones). Art critic Robert Rosenblum relates that Friedrich sought to picture “the experience of divinity in a secular world with his landscapes. For him there were no boundaries between the natural and the spiritual...(his paintings) invite an almost religious contemplation of a divine and pantheistic world.”

Hans Christian Oersted (1777-1851) - A Danish physicist and chemist who discovered that magnetic needles deflect at right angles to conductors of electric current, thus establishing a link between magnetism and electricity which initiated the study of electromagnetism. Oersted related pantheistic beliefs in his two volume work Aanden i Naturen(1849).

Victor Cousin (1792-1867) - French educator and philosopher. A translation of Cousin’s work, “Elements of Psychology...” became first book in English with the word ‘psychology’ in its title. “One of the leading French thinkers of the early 19th century,” according to Joseph McCabe, “a member of the Academy and Minister of Public Instruction, and translator and editor of the works of Plato, Proclus, Descartes, and Abelard (27 volumes). In his own 18 works he is eclectic and a Pantheist as regards religion.”

Pierre Henri Leroux (1797-1871) - French social reformer and philosopher. He claimed the invention of the term ‘socialism,’ and served as a leading voice of early socialist utopians who fostered egalitarian ideas such as the emancipation of women. According to the 1911 Encyclopedia, “his religious doctrine is Pantheistic.” Leroux spoke of “a mystical bond of divine life linking persons through time and space” and described a trinity of family, country, and property. He believed the institution of private property, through a sense of ownership, encouraged closer communion with nature.

Thomas Cole (1801-1848) - English-born American painter, who “embraced a pantheistic view” inspired by Wordsworth and Byron, according to art critic Deborah Bulter. Cole led the Hudson River School of artists in a style called ‘Luminism,’ which sought to depict the the spirituality of nature. “There are spots on this earth,” said Cole, “where the sublime and beautiful are united . . . when the lips are sealed in reverence, but the soul feels unutterably."

Jonas Hallgrimsson (1807-1845) - Icelandic writer and natural scientist considered the best loved and most admired poet of modern Iceland. Author Halldor Laxness describes the poet’s “invocations to a pantheistic god.” A strong current of pantheism runs through Hallgrimsson’s work, notably in ‘Lay of Hulda’ and ‘Journey’s End,’ the latter called the nation’s most beautiful poem.

Elizabeth Cady Stanton (1815-1902) - One of the first to call for female equal rights in America, Stanton devoted her life to freeing women from legal constraints and superstition. She described her conversion from orthodoxy to freethought as "like suddenly coming into the rays of the noon-day sun, after wandering with a rushlight in the caves of the earth." Editor Annie Gaylor noted "in one of her last manuscripts Stanton turns religious dogma on its head. God is nature: 'The sun moon & stars the constellations the days & nights, the seasons...the centripetal & centrifugal forces, positive & negative magnetism, the laws of gravitation cohesion attraction are all immutable and unchangeable one & all moving in harmony together.'" Stanton also stated "God was to us sunshine, flowers, affection, all that is grand and beautiful in nature."

Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862) - American author and naturalist considered one of the leading figures in American thought and literature. When a publisher complained about his "defiant Pantheism," Thoreau retorted that it couldn’t be avoided "...since I was born to be a pantheist-if that be the name of me, and I do the deeds of one." He expressed varying religious views, yet biographer Robert Richardson, Jr. observes "If a pantheist is one who worships nature, because nature is life, and life is all there is that matters, then Thoreau was a pantheist."

Walt Whitman (1819-1892) - One of America's greatest poets, and a Pantheist, who's masterwork, Leaves of Grass, celebrates Nature, self, democracy, brotherhood, and death as a process of life. Whiteman writes "We are Nature--long have we been absent, but now we return...We are snow, rain, cold, darkness--we are each product and influence of the globe."

John Tyndall (1820-1893) - An Irish-born scientist and philosopher who made major contributions to fields as varied as physics and glaciology. Eloquent and outspoken, Tyndall employed "pantheistic pyrotechnics," according to a biographer, to promulgate evolutionary theory in the face of strong clerical opposition to Darwinism "The universe is the blood and bones of Jehovah," proclaimed Tyndall. With his friend Thomas Huxley, "Tyndall led the pantheistic hymns and Huxley preached hell-fire warnings about the unpardonable sin of faith."

Ludwig Buchner (1824-1899) - A German physician and philosopher. His influential book, Force & Matter,went through 21 editions. An early proponent of Monism, the view that force and matter, mind and body, are a unity. Buchner’s thinking influenced Ernst Haeckel’s expression of Pantheism.

Leo Tolstoy (1828-1910) - The Russian author and philosopher whose famous novels, including “War and Peace” and “Anna Karenina,” place him among the world’s greatest writers. He supplanted early affluence with a lifestyle of simplicity, charity, and nonviolence, inspired by the Gospels. The Brothers Heuss observe that “no prose writer, unless it be Thoreau, was so wholly under the spell of Nature as Tolstoy... he frequently brings his heroes into touch with Nature, and endows them with all the innate mysticism of his own temperament, for to him Nature was ‘a guide to God’”. Russian religious scholar N. A. Berdyaev calls Tolstoy’s view of God “a peculiar form of pantheism...God is not a being, but rather a law, diffused through everything as a divine principle. Thus for him there does not exist a personal god, just as there does not exist any personal immortality. His pantheistic consciousness does not permit the existence of two worlds--the world of nature, immanent, and a world of the divine, transcendent. Such a pantheistic consciousness presupposed that the good, i.e. the Divine law of life, is to be realized by a naturo-immanent path, without grace, without the emergence of the transcendent into this world.”

Ernst Haeckel (1834-1919) - This gifted German scientist coined the word ‘ecology,’ popularized evolution, and propagated Pantheism in several books, notably The Riddle of the Universe, translated into over 20 languages. God, wrote Haeckel, "is everywhere identical with Nature itself, and is operative within the world as ‘force’ or ‘energy.’" Haeckel founded the Monistic Association 1906; membership rose to 5,000 in 40 local chapters, until it was banished by the National Socialists in 1933, with whom he had some complicity.

John Burroughs (1837-1921) - American naturalist, author, and plain-spoken Pantheist. In Accepting the Universe, Burroughs elaborates his pantheistic beliefs. "When we try to grasp, or measure, or define the power we call God," he writes, "we find it to be another sky, sheltering, over-arching, all-embracing....Not a being, not an entity is God, but that which lies back of all being and all entities."

John Muir (1838-1914) - Scottish-born American conservationist and writer. One of America’s most eminent naturalists, Muir often expressed a pantheistic point of view . Biographer Thurman Wilkins states that in his youthful religious position Muir held "the manifestations of nature as the words, thoughts, or vestments of God; but when speaking as a pantheist, his more mature position, he made nature synonymous with God." Muir often equated God with Beauty: "When we contemplate the whole globe as one great dewdrop, striped and dotted with continents and islands, flying through space with other stars all singing and shining together as one, the whole universe appears as an infinite storm of beauty."

Bertha Freifrau von Suttner (1843-1914) - An Austrian novelist and pacifist who became the first woman awarded a Nobel Peace Prize, in 1905. Her book, Lay Down Your Arms,and her friendship with Alfred Nobel influenced him to establish the Nobel Prizes. Suttner's reading of Darwin and Haeckel led her to adopt a Pantheistic creed.

William Kingdon Clifford (1845-1879) - British scholar and mathematician. Dr. Charles Milligan, describes Clifford as “...a pantheist and surely one of the greatest intellects of British philosophy and mathematics, despite his death at age thirty-three. He was extremely opposed to the religious establishment and orthodoxy, yet personally devout. As one of his critics put it, ‘He found escape in worship of the universe, and stood in reverent awe before its marvelous order and regularity.’”

Naim Frashëri (1846-1900) - An Albanian poet educated in both Oriental and Occidental literature and traditions. Scholar and translator Robert Elsie notes Frasheri “is nowadays widely considered to be the national poet of Albania....As he grew in knowledge, so did his affinity for his pantheistic Bektashi religion...Frashëri hoped that liberal Bektashi beliefs to which he had been attached since his childhood would one day take hold as the new religion of all Albania. Since they had their roots both in the Muslim Koran and in the Christian Bible, they could promote unity among his religiously divided people.”

George John Romanes (1848-1894) - English biology professor, and a friend of Charles Darwin, who encouraged Darwin to apply the theory of natural selection to mental evolution and psychology. Romanes works include Darwin and after Darwin, and Mind and Motion and Monism (1895), in which he expounded pantheism.

Ellen Karolina Key (1849-1926) - A progressive Swedish author and teacher who addressed many social issues and won a wide following in Scandinavia. She called herself a monist and wrote for Haeckel’s Monistic Association journal.

Frederick Delius (1862-1934) - A British-born composer whose lyrical compositions combine romanticism and impressionism. A biographer states “Delius was a pantheist: He worshipped nature. Occasionally, human drama enters his music, but for much of the time its energy springs from the landscapes, climates and wildlife that he knew and loved.” Delius stated that he believed only “...in Nature and in the great forces of Nature...Nothing is so wonderful as elemental feeling; nothing is more wonderful in art than elemental feeling expressed intensely.”

George Santayana (1863-1952) - Spanish-born professor of philosophy at Harvard University, regarded as one of the greatest thinkers of the 20th century. Biographer David Carter observes "Although Santayana did not believe in any religion literally, his life was a sustained meditation on the truths of religion, and given his beliefs about nature, he was very sympathetic to pantheism, which identifies God with the natural world." Santayana greatly admired Spinoza and his "true piety toward the universe." Santayana asks "Why should we not look on the universe with piety? Is it not our substance? Are we made of other clay? All our possibilities lie from eternity hidden in its bosom. It is the dispenser of all our joys. We may address it without superstitious terrors; it is not wicked,...and since it is the source of all our energies, the home of all our happiness, shall we not cling to it and praise it, seeing that it vegetates so grandly and so sadly...? Where there is such infinite and laborious potency there is room for every hope."

Ruben Dario (1867-1916) - Spanish-American poet who greatly influenced Hispanic literature. He pioneered modernism in works like Azul [Blue] and Poema del otono [Autumn Poem]. Octavio Paz writes that in many poems Dario “...expresses his vitalist affirmations, his pantheism, and his belief that he was, in his own right, the bard of Latin America as Whitman was of Anglo-America.”

Franz Marc (1880-1928) - German painter whose expressionist and abstract portrayals of animals in works such as Blue Horses (1911) evoked nature mysticism. “I am attempting to enhance my sensibility for the organic rhythm that I feel in all things,” said Marc, “and I am attempting to feel pantheistically the rapture of the flow of ‘blood’ in nature, in the trees, in the animals, in the air.”

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (1881-1955) - French evolutionary scientist and Catholic mystic who held panentheistic and pantheistic ideas. Ordained as a priest in 1913, his belief in evolution and his rejection of dogma led to ecclesiastical expulsion. Writer Charles Henderson states that Teilhard found “the primary source of religious truth...in the material world rather than in the magisterium of the Church. “Evolution,” said Teilhard, “is a general condition to which all theories, all hypotheses, all systems must bow, and which they must satisfy if they are to be thinkable and true," In his view, after the successive emergence of the lithosphere, hydrosphere, atmosphere, and biosphere, came the “noosphere” (from the Greek ‘nous’ meaning ‘mind’), with the evolution of human consciousness. Through collective consciousness, he envisioned humanity in spiritual union with the universe. In 1954, shortly before he died, Teilhard wrote to a friend, "I am essentially pantheist in my thinking and in my temperament."

D.H. Lawrence (1885-1930) English author considered to be one of the primary molders of 20th century fiction. Lawrence wrote "There is no god / apart from poppies and the flying fish, / men singing songs, and women brushing their hair in the sun." He decried humankind’s detachment from Nature: "Oh, what a catastrophe for man when he cut himself off from the rhythm of the year, from his union with the sun and the earth. Oh, what a catastrophe, what a maiming of love when it was a personal, merely personal feeling, taken away from the rising and setting of the sun, and cut off from the magic connection of the solstice and the equinox! That is what is the matter with us. We are bleeding at the roots, because we are cut of from the earth and the sun and stars, and love is a grinning mockery, because, poor blossom, we plucked it from it stem on the tree of Life, and expected it to keep on blooming in our civilized vase on the table."

Arnold Toynbee (1889-1975) - An eminent British historian and major interpreter of Western Civilization in the 20th century. His monumental 12 volume series “A Study of History” examined and compared 26 different civilizations, relating their origin, growth, and reasons for decline. In 1972, near the end of his life, Toynbee’s sweeping perspective on human history led him to affirm a Pantheist world view: "If I am right in my diagnosis of mankind's present-day distress, the remedy lies in reverting from the Weltanschauung of monotheism to the Weltanschauung of pantheism, which is older and was once universal. The plight in which post-Industrial- Revolution man has now landed himself is one more demonstration that man is not the master of his environment-- not even when supposedly armed with a warrant, issued by a supposedly unique and omnipotent God with a human-like personality, delegating to man plenipotentiary powers. Nature is now demonstrating to us that she does not recognize the validity of this alleged warrant, and she is warning us that, if man insists on trying to execute it, he will commit this outrage on nature at his peril."

Guo Moruo (1892–1978) - Chinese writer and scholar. He composed studies of Chinese archaeology, history, and literature. Free verse poetry like The Goddesses (1921) brought him fame. In "Pantheistic Ideas in Guo Moruo's The Goddesses and Whitman's Leaves of Grass" (Ed Folsom, ed., Whitman East and West, University of Iowa Press, 2002) Ou Hong cites Walt Whitman’s pantheism as a significant influence on his thought. In the poem Three Pantheists (1919) Moruo wrote: “I love my country’s Zhuangd/Because I love his pantheism/Because I love his making straw sandals for a living./I love Holland’s Spinoza/Because I love his pantheism/Because I love his grinding lenses for a living./I love India’s Kabir/Because I love his pantheism/Because I love his making fishnets for a living.” China’s impoverished masses led Moruo to support dialectical materialism and serve as influential government official from 1949 until his death.

Jean Giono (1895-1970) - A French novelist who held seminars on ecology and pacifism, and according to writer John Ardagh, expressed his pantheism in books such as ‘Regain,' which depicts country peasants closeness to the earth and their nature spirituality.

Karin Boye (1900-1941) - Swedish writer and novelist. Boye rejected orthodoxy early in her life, taking a religious path that went from agnosticism to Buddhism and ultimately to pantheism. She favored socialism and the Nazi party until she learned of its execrable activities

Robert C. Pollock (1901-1978) - Scottish born American philosopher and professor who taught for three decades at Fordham University. The Roman Catholic scholar celebrated religious tolerance, pluralism, and Pantheism. Pollock emphasized the mystical tradition in medieval thought. According to writer Thomas W. Casey, “There are constant references to pantheism” in his taped lectures. “Central to understanding Pollock's mind and hence his interpretation of the Western and American intellectual traditions is the need to grasp its pantheistic and mystical elements.... At one point in these tapes Pollock, in a moment of heightened enthusiasm, bursts forth with the claim that "God Himself is a pantheist!”

Ansel Adams (1902-1984) - American photographer and conservationist. His popular black and white photographs stirred feelings for the natural world. Adams encouraged "a vast impersonal pantheism--transcending the confused myths and prescriptions that are presumed to clarify ethical and moral conduct."

David Brower (1912-2000 ) - Celebrated American conservationist. Writer John McPhee refers to Brower as the Archdruid who often spoke of "drawing people into the religion," and who believed conservation should be "an ethic and conscience in everything we do, whatever our field of endeavor." Brower stated "This religion is closest to the Buddhist, I suppose," although he later expressed his belief using a good working definition of Pantheism: "To me, God and Nature are synonymous."

Bernard Loomer (b. 1912) - American professor and theologian. A longtime Dean of the University of Chicago Divinity School and a leading proponent of Process Theology, Loomer wrote “The world is God because it is the source and preserver of meaning; because the creative advance of the world in its adventure is the supreme cause to be served; because even in our desecration of our space and time within it, the world is holy ground; and because it contains and yet enshrouds the ultimate mystery inherent within existence itself. . . . The world in all the dimensions of its being is the basis for all our wonder, awe, and inquiry.” Loomer decried theological certainty and delighted in the wonder of existence: “Final answers are not to be trusted. We are born in mystery, we live in mystery, and we die in mystery."

A response by Moby

I try not to waste too much of my time dealing with extremely bigoted and obtuse fanatics of any persuasion, but occasionally there excesses will prompt me to some action, even if it is only to comment.

Archaic and little known but valid definition: cosmotheism = pantheism. ACCEPTED.

Absurd and appallingly ill illogic:

cosmotheism + bigoted, "racialist", solipsistic nonsense = Cosmotheism, AND THUS cosmotheism = Cosmotheism, and THUS EQUALS the ultimate representative of all "True" pantheists, and is THUS justified in appropriating all manner of dignified and well heralded names of any philosopher or thinker past, present or future to its "Holy" cause. That it is plainly not the dominant view of all "right-thinking" individuals is only because of nefarious "ZOG" conspiracies, and the like.

I AM ENLIGHTENED! My Holy Universe! How could I not see it before! PV has the ultimate POV of GOD! ALL HAIL his stupendous genius! — since I am not deranged I do not ever say such things save with wearied mockery.

Some people seem to have far more time to disrupt genuine progress in the world than to make any attempt at actually understanding it. The catalog of great thinkers who were NOT "Cosmotheists" in the particular sense is an interesting and yet invalid appeal to claiming that everyone who doesn't embrace "Cosmotheism" is an incompetent moron, and the dupe of "Zionist" conspiracies. Even with the wide range of nonsense that exists in the world, I don't think too many people are going to get hooked on PV's particular form of it. Thank the KOSMOS!

(By the way PV, I'm not "David Gerard's" "sock-puppet", and to my remembrance I have not as yet had any form of dialog with him anywhere. As in many other things you seem to be a bit overconfident in your assessments of what is likely, what is real, what is true, and what is rational.) I assert that despite my irritation at your obstinacy, and your being an insulter of most people's intelligence, and an accuser of anyone who disagrees with you of being pathologically narcissistic (try and see beyond yourself and actually think about that diagnosis a bit), in your being a nuisance to a lot of other people, I have no ill-will towards you, and truly hope you someday come to know the true joy of really understanding that not everyone in the world who is inclined to disagree with you on anything is a total idiot. ~ Moby 22:45, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

===My Response to Moby=== http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Cosmotheism&oldid=3419768#SOME_BEAR_CROSSES_OF_TRUTH

Psychological projection?-PV

That has already been factually cited as being true.-PV

"Absurd and appallingly ill illogic:", I could not agree more! LOL! :D That is really only MOBY's own "absurd and appallingly ill illogic", and not mine nor any true Cosmotheists' own reasoning. "Strawman arguement", MOBY.-PV

LOL! :D There is always some TRUTH in such HUMOR! :D-PV

Indeed. What could be more ENLIGHTENING than actually realizing that "GOD is the impersonal COSMOS and the COSMOS is a impersonal GOD"?-PV

LOL! :D No arguement there!-PV

"Absurd and appallingly ill illogic:", yet again! LOL! :D But, many that can't actually understand Cosmotheism are incompetent morons, and many that wouldn't embrace it, even if they weren't morons, are only either lacking in factual knowledge, personal integrity, intellectual honesty, or moral courage, and no more and no less. What else isn't new?-PV

I do completely agree! True Cosmotheism only banishes the "drug" of those "hooked on SSEE delusions" of only those that have the real strength of character, or the actual personal integrity to uphold it.-PV

Sure, David Gerard, sure. You may as well as be, if not in fact. -PV

Hardly. I do trust my own judgements. More often than not I am correct.-PV

More Psychological projection, MOBY, but, I do harbor no real ill will towards anyone, personally, either. Unfortunately, most people that I have found that are "emotionally inclined" to "irrationally" disagree with me are only either quite "rationally-challenged" dogmatists and bigots, if not just total idiots, or they just lack any actual personal integrity. So be it.-PV

Best regards,

Paul Vogel

http://www.cosmotheism.net

===Recent POV Reverts====

FYI:

Cosmotheism is a form of Classical pantheism and it is not any "pseudo-pantheism" as is any Pan-atheism, as "Pantheism" actually means and is defined as being "All in GOD" and "GOD in ALL" and NOT the "pseudo-pantheism" of any Pan-atheism which has only twisted the meaning and actual defintion of Pantheism to: "ALL is NATURE and NATURE is ALL".

Please stop pov and ignorantly reverting the cosmotheism article without first discussing them on the TalkPages, first. Thanks!-PV

Please discuss your suggested additions or changes on the talk page before adding them to the article. Thank you. - Tεx τ urε 15:39, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

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