Talk:Corporate Average Fuel Economy

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More is necessary to explain how the procedure works, also I understand that ligth trucks are not included???? and I'm sure that SUV are not included !!Milton 15:18, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Wrong. Totally wrong. I thought you were an expert in these things? —Morven 15:53, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Two cited needed 2 Suit against CAFE 3 CAFE by year chart way too small 4 impact

[edit] Two cited needed

I've added two cite needed to a couple of claims that need backed up. Joncnunn 14:20, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suit against CAFE

[1] summarizes a lawsuit by 10 states and the Sierra Club saying that the new SUV CAFE limits are too high. Simesa 21:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CAFE by year chart way too small

It's competely non-readable in the current size. Needs increased 2 to 4X in size. Jon 17:51, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] impact

I just changed the impact section. please put criticism here 70.18.242.118 18:58, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with the claim in the impact section that the mid 80s saw an increase in SUV and light truck purchase so I put a fact tag there. Any discussion about that can occur here. Pdbailey 03:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Yep, 1980's did not see a migration away from passenger cars, except for the increased popularity of compact pickup trucks (usually imported - Nissan, Toyota, etc). However, the graph covers the 1990's as well, so mentioning the move in this context might be appropriate. Fallout11 12:05, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I just paired down the analysis section because I thought it was reaching. It is certainly acceptable to extend it with references. Pdbailey 12:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I am working on that section presently. Give me a bit with it, as it takes time to dig up and cite sources correctly in the newer WP format. Fallout11

That is about it for for now. Primarily, I worked on citations (either adding or updating) and related format or reconciling previous contributions into a more NPOV (or BPOV) format. Feel free to smoke it over.Fallout11 14:52, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

PdBailey, I reverted a couple of your recent edits, but wanted to explain why so it did not seem like it was done without regard.

1) The first, regarding the apparent lag time between lower fuel prices returning in the 1980's and the switch in popularity to lower fuel economy vehicles in the 1990s, is easily explained. When prices rise, consumer response is almost immediate, but when prices of a commodity fall, especially a very (historically) price volatile commodity like fuel, there is a much slower response to this price signal. Drivers in the 1980's still remembered the gas lines and high prices of the oil crisis of 1973 and 1979. Fear (one the two principle emotions that govern free market decisions) of a return to higher prices, as had occurred several times already in the last decade, kept would-be purchasers from running right out the next day and buying gas guzzlers. A gas guzzler tax also remained on the books. So yes, purchasers were slow to return to low fuel economy vehicles. This slowness does not invalid the principle hypothesis suggested.

2) Simple economics alone can account for a direct causal relationship between fuel prices and customer decisions regarding fuel economy in their vehicle purchases. Classic textbook return on investment at work. Customers purchase higher fuel economy vehicles (investment) when fuel prices are high because they wish to save money (return on investment) on fuel purchases, which can easily be the largest component of the total cost of ownership. Likewise, if fuel prices are low, there is little economic incentive to make purchasing decisions (investment) based on fuel economy, as the savings realized (return on investment) versus a lower fuel economy vehicle (that may be more desirable in other ways) will be nominal at best, reducing the importance of this criteria substantially. Fallout11 16:07, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Fallout11, I prefer, "A simplistic economic analysis" because the analysis is simplistic (cause -> effect) there is no second-order effects included (i.e. total cost of ownership rises so propensity to own a car goes down among the marginal car owner leading to more expensive--read heavy and fast--cars being the norm which leads to lower fuel economy.) If you can cite a journal article or news paper article saying the same, go for it. (2) regarding the lag time, I'm fine with prices being sticky, but I think your ignoring a lot more detailed analysis of geopolitics at the time, again, cite it and it can stay. I'm adding cite tags just to be clear where we need them. Pdbailey 17:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Pdbailey. I was able to dig up some citations to fill the cite tags you added.

As a general rule, it is difficult to locate usable citations for positional arguments (i.e. the absolutist claims introduced, 'it's all CAFE standards!' vs 'no, it's all pure economics!') as these tend not to meet WP:VER (blogs, radicalized websites with definitive bias, etc), but I was able to locate some moderate/MSM citations to largely back the positions put forth. The paper here (http://www.rff.org/documents/RFF-DP-03-44.pdf) from a few years back does a good job of analyzing both points, incorporating more of the complexities and externalities associated with CAFE standards, fuel economy, and automotive technology in general, so I added it as an external link. Most wiki readers are after a simple, encyclopedic summarization, but if they wish to delve more into the detailed analysis they generally do it elsewhere.

Thanks for adding some cites. I'm not sure I agree that there is so much controversy about this, but I think it's good enough for my level of caring now.Pdbailey 04:19, 13 March 2007 (UTC)