Talk:Cornish people/Archive 1

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The all new singing and dancing Cornish people page

I wonder if saying Cornish is an ethnic group is POV. What counts? Someone considering themselves to be ethnic Cornish - or all residents of Cornwall? Secretlondon 12:19, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm no ethnicitiy expert but I'd say that there as valid an ethnic group as the Welsh or English. I'd guess that you wouldn't be able to count *every* resident of Cornwall but I'm not sure who you would count -- Joolz 12:46, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Presumably Cornish emigrants to the rest of the UK also maintain their cornish ethnicity. None of the Cornish people I know online still live in Cornwall. And also English people who move to Cornwall presumably also maintain their English ethnicity. I suspect disentangling these two populations may be impossible. Morwen - Talk 13:42, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
There is information in Modern Celts which implies that the existance of ethnic celts is a recent invention/perception (post world war 2). Secretlondon 13:59, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
It's a view worth covering in the article, for sure -- Joolz 14:11, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
If someone wants to refer to themselves as a member of a Cornish ethnic group, that is their right. Culturally, ethnically/genetically, historically, the Cornish are no more a separate people than any other group within England or Britain. The practice of calling onesself 'Cornish' as an ethnic title is primarily divisive and I would wager something more akin to identity starved Americans than to actual people in Cornwall, the majority (non-black, Asian or continental European) of whom, like the majority of all people in England and Britain, are indigenous Britons. Enzedbrit 12:34, 17 August 2005

Link here estimating the number of Cornish people in Cornwall as 40-50% of total population.[1]

Page by the census people explaining their categorisation scheme.[2]

You'll note they are asking two different (overlapping) questions - one on Ethnicity, in which "White British" is the answer for Welsh, Scottish and English people, and Cornish is lumped in with that, and Nationality, which can be English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish or British, along with a field for Other. It appears breakdowns of the Other field have not been released, and in any case it is likely some Cornish self-identified people would describe themselves as British nationality. Morwen - Talk 15:56, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

The Cornish transnational communities project [3] claims 6 million world wide, and says that "indigenous" Cornish make up less than 50% of Cornwall. However I'm not sure this is a NPOV source with stuff like "Cornish attempt to legitimise their ethnic and national aspirations." Secretlondon 16:57, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

We actually have a page on Cornish_nationalism - I'm going to promote the existance of this page on their talk pages. Secretlondon 17:08, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Well it’s a tricky one like all ethnicities its difficult to define. Best to just take a multi perspectival approach and describe the different facets to being Cornish e.g. Language, Birth place, perceived decent from the Britons, Cornish family names, political movements and the existence of a Cornish national identity. On this page as on all pages about ethnicity there is room to seriously question the notion.

As to whether the page should exist I would say self evidently yes. You could record your identity as Cornish on the 2001 census, the 2004 schools census and on many other statistic gathering exercises such as at the Royal Cornwall Hospital. This coupled with the fact that there are many people who claim Cornish national identity is more than enough reason.

Here some links a to help you explore the subject.

Bretagne 44 26/7/05

How many people were Cornish in those censuses then? Not much point adding that they were conducted without saying it. Morwen - Talk 11:26, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I think this page should certainly exist - as there are clearly some people who consider themselves to be ethnic Cornish. The question is how many people whom a Cornish nationalist would consider to be ethnic Cornish, consider themselves to be ethnic Cornish. I feel strongly that we shouldn't state information from one side uncritically - there is material in Modern Celts we should use as balance. Regionalism/nationalism is controversial - let's write about the argument. Secretlondon 12:19, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Morwen; that’s a very good point about the censuses why don't you try and find out?

As to the numbers of Cornish people why don't we look at the page for English people to see what solution they came up with to this problem, maybe latter we could look at the pages for Welsh people, Scottish people etc etc.

  • Well oh my me look at what we have here for "English People":
  • Total population: c. 100 million (2004)

Significant populations in: England:

  49 million

United States:

  24.5 million (2000) 1

Australia:

  3.5 million (2001)

Canada:

  1.5 million (2001) 2

Ireland:

  c. 105,000
  • How can that be!? For a start let’s look at the 49 million figure. Now is that the total population of England or is it the number of people who described themselves as English on a census? I have a feeling its the total population of England, but what about the Cornish, Welsh, Irish, Scottish, Jamaican, Pakistani people etc who live in England are they in this number. What about all the people in England who self designate as British are they included in this number? Now as for the other statistics what are these based on, census results or projects similar to the one that estimated the number of Cornish overseas.
  • Now I am happy to see you are all keen to question the idea of Cornishness and the numbers of Cornish and of course this has nothing to do with your personal feelings on the issue, so let’s expand the issue to all the "people" pages.
  • So if we are going to use total population figures as an indication of the numbers of English people even though plenty of these people are not nationally / ethnically English then surely this is what we must do with the Cornish people page i.e. use the 500000 figure, all these people are Cornish in some way even if it is just residence.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander Bretagne 44 26/7/05

Excuse me, if go to to Talk:English people you will note I have been at the forefront of challenging the stupidity of that estimate of English people too. Telling us to "go look it up" when you are challenged as to the sources of the claims you are making is not helpful. Morwen - Talk 16:09, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Well good for you, you have got my backing for one! If my comments are not applicable to you all the better, feel free to ignore them. Bretagne 44 26/7/05

DNA

"Recent genetic research has shown that the Cornish carry on average about 75% DNA in common with the Britons, however this is not unusual across the British isles, the invading Germanics of the post roman period leaving less of a mark than was expected in the gene pool."

I've removed this as it's unsourced and silly as it stands. According to Genomics humans share 75% of their DNA with a roundworm, and 98% with chimpanzees. We need to say which research and what they meant by Briton. Secretlondon 15:07, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Dr Thomas did research in conjunction with Capelli and Goldstein. All his intial samples had been taken in either Wales (Abergele and Llangefni) and within the old Danish territory of Danelaw (North Walsham, Fakenham, Bourne, Southwell and Ashbourne) and Danish and Aglo-Saxon DNA was indistiguishable. Historically therefore, there were two waves of Germanic immigration most of which was centred on the area covered by Dr. Thomas's first tests. The second survey found that there was comparatively little immigration into southern England. He also refuted his previous claims.

"The results of his computation were as follows:-

North and East England:- York 30% Ind 70% G/D Norfolk 40% Ind 60% G/D Morpeth 70% Ind 30% G/D Southwell 55% Ind 45% G/D Uttoxeter 65% Ind 35% G/D Penrith 60% Ind 40% N & G/D

South and West England:- Chippenham 50% Ind 50% G/D Faversham 75% Ind 25% G/D Midhurst 75% Ind 25% G/D Dorchester 70% Ind 30% G/D Cornwall 75% Ind 25% G/D

NB. Ind = Indigenous (Celts) G/D = German/Danish (Anglo-Saxons/Danish Vikings) N = Norwegian (Norwegian Vikings)"

Look up this for further information: tha-engliscan-gesithas.org.uk/gegaderung/topic. Bretagne 44 26/7/05

Your link is to a forum on an Anglo-Saxon web site. You've only given half the URL - they should be formatted like so. Do we know where this survey was published and whether anyone's been able to replicate its findings? Secretlondon 15:53, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, you must have taken this from somewhere. Please tell us where from. It should be a simple matter. I've googled for a few of the phrases in the text and not found any hits. Morwen - Talk 16:06, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Try a web search. [[4]]

The article at this link doesn't mention Cornish people but is just about the general White British population. I don't see any futher links from that. Morwen - Talk 16:11, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Ok. The link gives a comment which is a link [5] to a web site on race. The actual link is to an article in the Observer. It mentions that Mark Thomas is an academic at University College London. We need the actual study, and whether this is accepted fact or not. Secretlondon 16:32, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Got to see a man about a dog! Bretagne 44 26/7/05

I was partly inspired by the History of Devon page created by a Devonshire Celtic enthusiast Bretagne 44 27/7/05

Great. We need to be really careful about bias - we want this article to be really, really good. When things are controversial we need to know who said them. When science is quoted we need to know where it's from - some media science isn't worth anything quite frankly. Secretlondon 16:25, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I have just done a major rewrite of the Y chromosome analysis section in Anglo-Saxons using both the Y chromosome census of the British Isles and the Y chromosome evidence for mass Anglo-Saxon migration papers. Too many people were using very biased and essentially incorrect journalistic interpretations of the papers, rather than the original research papers. The data show that Cornish (and to a slightly lesser extent Scots) men's Y chromosomes (and it's only men as it's Y chromosome) are somewhat closer to Welsh/Irish/Basque (the indigenous chromosome for the sake of the study as they all cluster together in the analysis) than any other English samples. All English samples show a significant indigenous input, with York, the least indigenous being about 60% Germanic (Danish/German/Frisian- these are the Anglo-Saxon/Danish-Viking sources). Links to both papers are at Anglo-Saxons if you want to read the papers yourself. Alun 11:01, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Council of Europe

"In the last few year the Council of Europe has been applying increasing pressure on the UK government to recognise the Cornish for protection under the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities.".

I've left this in it but its unsourced and needs to be referenced. You need to Cite your sources - especially when they are controversial. Secretlondon 16:39, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Register as a Cornish Wikipedian

At these two pages:

[6]

[7]

Bretagne 44 27/7/05.

Reduce the Cornwall pages

I think the Cornwall page could be reduced now that the Culture of Cornwall and Cornish people pages exist, why double up on the information?

Bretagne 44 27/7/05

See Wikipedia:Summary_style for advice on this. Morwen - Talk 15:30, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, i will, i am still kinda new to all this though. Bretagne 44 27/7/05.

Sure - no problem :D Oh - you can sign your name with a date stamp automatically by using 4 tildas. ~~~~

Oh yeah so you can. Bretagne 44 11:45, 28 July 2005 (UTC).

Numbers of Cornish

You're not going to like this you little unionist british type people but je m'en fou. Added this link to a BBC story on the Welsh that contains info on the numbers of Cornish.

*According to a recent Morgan Stanley Bank survey, 44 per cent of the inhabitants of Cornwall believe themselves to be Cornish rather than British or English.[8] Bretagne 44 17:06, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

POV

Does anybody else think that this article is too POV. I suggest that you all read Wikipedia:NPOV, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. GrandfatherJoe 18:18, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

POV which way? Can you identify a particularly bad bit and say what you would change it to? Secretlondon 06:18, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

There is no specific part of the article which I don't like. I don't like the fact that it seems to gloss over the fact that most inhabitants of Cornwall whose families have lived in Cornwall for hundreds of years do not consider themselves members of this Cornish ethnic group. Out of the 513,527 inhabitants of Cornwall only 7,448 consider themselves members of a separate Cornish ethnic group. And yet, the table confidently claims that there are 250,000 members of this Cornish ethnic group. Isn't that a gross inaccuracy? Personally, I don't know much about this new Cornish nation ideology, all I know is that just about 2% of Cornwall seem to agree with it. Now I don't want to speak for all the inhabitants of Cornwall, but if the remaining 98% are not ethnically Cornish, what are they? I would suspect that they view themselves as English. The government does not recognise this ideology and the fact that Cornish was an option for the census, I suspect that it was something like the Jedi census phenomenon. I believe that this must be made perfectly clear in the article that this Cornish ethnicity stuff is very controverial and is rejected by the significant majority of the Cornish people. Wikipedia should not be used for propaganda. GrandfatherJoe 13:48, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Grandfatherjoe try reading this article by the BBC, seems to indicate that around 44% of the Cornish populace considers themsleves to be Cornish.

*According to a recent Morgan Stanley Bank survey, 44 per cent of the inhabitants of Cornwall believe themselves to be Cornish rather than British or English.[9]

Bretagne 44 14:55, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Which according to your link asked 4,000 people across the entire UK. That must equate to a tiny number in Cornwall - and where was this published exactly? Secretlondon 14:57, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

I think that we can all agree that this article slightly appeases the inaccurate POV of Cornish nationalists. This is not a way to write encyclopaedia articles. BBC surveys are not as reliable as censi. Therefore, we agree that certain aspects of this article should be changed. Especially, the intentional or accidental suppression of the fact that the majority of the Cornish population do not consider themselves members of a separate Cornish ethnic group. This movement has yet to seduce all of the population of Cornwall. Currently it is just backed by a minority. GrandfatherJoe 15:52, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Are you sure that censi include the option Cornish ethnicity? When I searched the Website www.statistics.gov.uk there were zero results for Cornish. There were however three results for Jedi. Interesting! I wonder what that means :-) GrandfatherJoe 16:06, 24 September 2005 (UTC)


Yes it did, Cornish were given the number 06 as a subcategory of British, it was reported in the media including on the BBC in the run up to the census that for the first time you could record your ethnicity as Cornish, if you don't believe me contact the office of national statistics.

  • I don't know much about this new Cornish nation ideology

Well granfatherjoe that is clear, the fact that it is not a new movement is the first thing you should be aware of. feel free to read about the subject before making comments, you could start with the acclaimed book by Mark Stoyle "West Britons, Cornish identities in the early modern period" or if you don't read many books try this web link to a BBC article by the same author.

  • all I know is that just about 2% of Cornwall seem to agree with it. Now I don't want to speak for all the inhabitants of Cornwall, but if the remaining 98% are not ethnically Cornish, what are they? I would suspect that they view themselves as English

What utter English nationalist rubish, you clearly are trying to speak for all the inhabitants of Cornwall and large section of which consider themselves British and not English.

Therefore, we agree that certain aspects of this article should be changed.

No we do not all agree and any changes will be reverted untill concensus is arrived at.

Bretagne 44 12:45, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Why does Bretagne 44 think that he can force his POV on everyone else? There is NO evidence that even suggests that more than just a minority of Cornish nationalists (2%) subscribe to this extremist nonsense. Again, I advise you to read Wikipedia:NPOV, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. You will see that your implying that this Cornish ethnic group stuff is accurate and accepted by the Cornish people is nothing more than vandalism. What I am seeking is the truth. Can you prove that Cornish was an option in the census? I cannot find references for that anywhere. Your telling me to research is nothing more than sending me on a wild goose chase to find something that doesn't even exist. As I have already said, Wikipedia should not be used to promote extremist nonsense that only about 7,000 people agree with. The British National Party has more members than the followers of this new ideology, cult or whatever it is. As for you saying that any changes I make to the article will be reverted until you agree with them, this article is NOT your fiefdom and if you check you will see that I have never edited the article. Hold your breath until the next time I edit the page if you like; you will find that turning blue suits you. GrandfatherJoe 15:02, 25 September 2005 (UTC)


extremist nonsense turning blue suits you new ideology, cult or whatever it is

You are being rather unpleasant, please do tell why. There are plenty of links on this page, the Cornwall page and others that show the Cornish movement is neither new, extremist or a cult and if you persist with you abuse i will complain. Like i said Cornish was a write in option on the 2001 census and was recorded with the number 06 as a subcategory of White British, if you cannot be bothered to check this well what can i say. I wrote in Cornish and i remember seeing the spotlight edition that carried an article about this change. If it is truth your after then i would say English nationalism is just as misleading.

and any changes will be reverted untill concensus is arrived at

What don't you understand about the word concensus then? This does not mean English or British nationalists can pack this discussion out and then agree to make changes they like.

Bretagne 44 16:26, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Taken form the Cornwall County Council website: [10][11]

1999 (February) Cornwall County Council vote in support of the campaign to include Cornish as a minority ethnic group for the purposes of the forthcoming 2001 Census. The Government's Office of National Statistics subsequently agrees the inclusion.

Cornish Ethnicity

One aspect of the Census which provoked considerable debate within Cornwall in the run up to the Census was the ethnic group categories including whether Cornish should be treated as a distinct ethnic group. A question on ethnicity was introduced for the 1991 Census and it worked well. Since then many individuals and groups in Cornwall have been trying to get Cornish added to the recognised groups.

This campaign was successful. The Office for National Statistics gave an assurance that everyone who wrote the word Cornish in answer to that question would have had their answer coded.

In the statistics that were published on 13th February the population was classified into 16 ethnic groups. People who identified themselves as Cornish could have been in any of these groups.

In Wales there was an additional column in the ONS tables showing the number of people who identified themselves as Welsh. Comparable statistics for Cornwall about the Cornish will be available towards the end of 2003.

Many aspects of ethnicity are controversial but analysis of the Census results in due course will be interesting.

The Office for National Statistics was not allowed to promote awareness of this question any more than any other but the Census Manager in Cornwall, Tim Light and parts of the local media gave heavy publicity to the Cornish ethnic issue in the run up to the Census. Also interested local people produced leaflets and put out their own information on other websites.

I really think you should find out a bit more about a subject before you consider editing.

Try a Timeline of Cornish History on the Cornwall County Council website.

  • Now are you going to stop wasting my time?

Bretagne 44 16:37, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

How exquisite! What a pity that only about 2% of the white inhabitants of Cornwall do consider themselves neither English, nor Scottish, nor Irish, nor Welsh (as opposed to the remaining ~98% who do consider themselves to be English, Scottish, Irish or Welsh). I wonder what they do believe that they are? Cornish (ie not English) or other Europeans. Well, it is quite clear that this Cornish nationalism scheme has not yet captured the imagination of the Cornish people. I wonder why the article tries to gloss over that fact. This is not English or British nationalism; it is a doubt that there are indeed 250,000 people who are members of this Cornish ethnicity as the infobox confidently claims. Perhaps it should be more like 7,448. Just know that Wikipedia is not the place to advertise or promote Cornish nationalism. Now if I said that the overwhelming majority of the Cornish people identify as English, does this mean that I am an English nationalist? I am interested in facts. No reliable facts exist to suggest that there now exists a Cornish ethnic group which has 250,000 members. Facts do exist however which indicate that 98% of the inhabitants of Cornwall do not identify as Cornish. A slight anomaly? I do not think so. I believe that an inaccuracy, either accidental or intentional, has been introduced into the article which seems to be leaning in the direction of Cornish nationalism. How should that be remedied? Also, I have not yet edited the article, I am just suggesting that Cornish nationalism seems to be infiltrating the article. An encyclopaedia is certainly not the place for that. A lodge meeting of the Sened Kernow pressure group maybe, but not Wikipedia. GrandfatherJoe 17:35, 25 September 2005 (UTC)


In the census, Cornish is recorded in the ethnicity question (response category 06), within the 'other white' category. As the page currently says, about 1.5% of the county ticked this box, and that includes most Americans, Europeans and other white people living in the county. Although Cornish was used as a minor 'open' coding category, I haven't seen this level of detail (for the Cornish) published anywhere. Usually such levels of detail need to be specially commissioned (and paid for) - it seems there might not be enough interested parties [12] [13]. The council is quite vague about it [14].

Of course, most people living in the county (97.08%) at the census classed themselves as 'White British' instead of choosing the more elaborate option of writing in 'Cornish' or 'English'. However this compares with the Morgan Stanley survey which says that only around 34% of England's population consider themselves primarily British. This is the problem with surveys - you need to know what is being asked. As with the Morgan Stanley survey, if you go and ask a Londoner whether he is a Londoner or British first, then he is going to choose the more local option whether it's properly based on ethnicity or not.

I haven't seen the questions used in that survey, but I see the report of the survey talks about 'gave their loyalty', 'felt Cornish, rather than English or British', 'primary identity', etc. It would be useful if anyone found this original research.

Morgan Stanley asked a representative sample of more than 4,000 adults living in Britain what supranational, national or regional identity they considered most relevant to them. [15]

Without knowing what this survey asked, the statistics cannot be relied on, even as an estimate, although they should of course be reported. The census and language statistics (min 4000 max 7500) are much more reliable, but are obviously too low for the total number of Cornish people.

I don't think that using 250,000 as such a bold estimate for the population count is valid (especially calculating further statistics from this figure). There are only 3-4,000 people who can speak the language, and at most 7,500 who could be bothered writing Cornish on their census returns. This is probably the hardcore Cornish, perhaps with aspirations of self-government. Estimates that half the population are indigenous are credible (and could be better referenced), but this is not the same as ethnicity. Given this figure I am happy to accept all sourced estimates up to the 250,000 indigenous figure, provided it's clear what they measure.

I think the numbers in this article (especially the headline figure) have been POV, and I would prefer to see a range of (referenced) estimates for the Cornish population figures, which clearly highlight the range of definitions of 'Cornish people', 'Cornish ethnicity' and are clearly rooted in these definitions. I think this would be most informative for this unique (notably in its elusivity) ethnic group. It would be over-simplistic to further talk about proportions of the Cornish (ethnic) population, though there are some relatively reliable estimates of Cornish language speakers, and of course the county's total population, which can be safely used in statistics with suitable qualification. I'm afraid we simply don't know how many Cornish are out there because it hasn't been defined and asked properly in any research.

This article is not inherently POV, but I hope no one gets the impression that half the people in Cornwall are Cornish instead of British, or that even 4000 people (0.8%) go around saying 'dydh da'.

Number of Cornish people in Cornwall: estimates vary up to 250,000
Diaspora: unknown

zzuuzz (talk) 19:07, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I can't find a breakdown of the white other category for Cornwall. The County Council minutes linked to above say that it would need to be paid for (and that it would be ready early 2004). I've found this on the ethnic categories. 2.66% of England ticked white other. In the South West 1.65% did, and in Cornwall 1.49% did. (of course Cornwall may have a lower level of immigration than average which would probably explain this).

The County Council has considered this issue in regards to its own ethnic monitoring. [16] and decided to not break down white british into sub categories.

The commissioned breakdown has been published ID - C0235, "All People and Those who identified themselves with an ethnic group of Cornish." released 3/12/2004. I can't find it on the ONS web site but they should send people one for free on request. Secretlondon 20:21, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Looking at [ONS Ethnic Group statistics page 52 (pdf file) it seems that the census put write in cornish answers under white british, not white other. English, Scottish, Welsh and Cornish were classed as White British, Northern Irish was classed as white other, togther with Cypriot, American, Australian etc. Secretlondon 21:15, 25 September 2005 (UTC)


That's a useful reference <g>. I have been getting confused by the options from the question on the census form [17] (see below). There are two places it could have been written (one more correct than the other), neither of which is under British.

8) What is your ethnic group?
Choose ONE section from A to E, then tick the appropriate
box to indicate your cultural background. [x] = tickbox

A WHITE
    [x] British
    [x] Irish
    [x] Any other white background (please write in) ...  <---
    [end of list]
B MIXED
    [x] White and Asian etc..
C ASIAN OR ASIAN BRITISH
    [x] Indian etc..
D BLACK
    [x] Carribean etc...
E CHINESE OR OTHER
    [x] Chinese
    [x] Any other (please write in)  ...  <---
    [end of list]

So the figure for the other white category is not at all relevant and we have to wait(?) for the commissioned report for anything from the census (apart from the county population). That leaves the statistics for language, the (not-quite-clear-what-it-represents) MS survey, and the indigenous population estimates. None of them are good enough on their own to boldly indicate the number of Cornish. How about this schools census?

zzuuzz (talk) 22:11, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Well the report was delivered last December. The unknown commissioner hasn't published it as far as I can see. The ONS web site doesn't have any commissioned reports on it. It seems that they will send one to anyone who requests. I'll try contacting them tomorrow. Secretlondon 22:31, 25 September 2005 (UTC)


Incidentally this census classification rules out the possibility of Black Cornish people (also Black English, Welsh, and Scottish), highlighting the requirement for celtic genetic roots or at least a Cornwall-related lineage going back over several hundred years. I wonder how many people who 'feel more Cornish' or are learning the language can claim that. Food for thought. zzuuzz (talk) 00:26, 26 September 2005 (UTC)


zzuuzz you wrote: highlighting the requirement for Celtic genetic roots or at least a Cornwall-related lineage going back over several hundred years

What requirement would that be then, don't remember seeing this requirement on the census or needed by any group in the Cornish movement! Where did you get this requirement from or is it just something you made up? I am half Irish but i still wrote in Cornish and i have a friend who is half Pakistani and he did the same. Additionally after a campaign by Cornwall 2000 and parent groups the 2004 Cornwall schools census contained a White Cornish option which, after further campaigning, was enlarged to just Cornish so that there was no racial discrimination, you could be Black Cornish. Really its not food for thought at all is it?

To try and find any real racial/DNA frontiers in Europe let alone the UK is next to impossible but then again nationality / ethnicity and cultural identity are not dependent on decent or DNA are they?

98% who do consider themselves to be English, Scottish, Irish or Welsh

Facts do exist however which indicate that 98% of the inhabitants of Cornwall do not identify as Cornish

Grandfatherjoe; the majority ticked the white British box so if they are British, Cornish British, English British, Cornish English British etc etc is unknown. Maybe the bank survey gives us a clue, plus 55% of the Cornish populace being infavour of devolution to a Cornish assembly.

  • I think the numbers in this article (especially the headline figure) have been POV, and I would prefer to see a range of (referenced) estimates for the Cornish population figures, which clearly highlight the range of definitions of 'Cornish people', 'Cornish ethnicity' and are clearly rooted in these definitions
  • I think this is a good idea lets apply it with equal zeal (which i know your are all so keen to do) to the English people page and why not all the other people pages, as far as i know the majority in England also ticked white British so i guess they are not English then.

Bretagne 44 12:30, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Let's see if I can summarise Bretagne 44's views. He wants us to accept that there are 250,000 ethnically Cornish people despite the fact that there is no credible evidence to support such a claim and anyone who disagrees with His Magnificence is to be declared an English nationalist. Well, where are these invisible people? So far, most Cornish people have indicated that they don't believe in this separate Cornish ethnicity and despite the fact that they knew that if they had entered Cornish into the Other White box they would have been entered under this 06 category (Cornish), most of them (98%) chose not to do so. GrandfatherJoe 13:45, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
No - the link I posted earlier (ONS Ethnic Group statistics page 52 (pdf file) said that people who wrote in English, Scottish, Welsh or Cornish in the White Other box were counted as White British not White Other. This makes the % who were listed as having ticked White Other irrelevent as the population we are looking for were counted as White British in the published tables. However the Office for National Statistics have produced a table listing who counted themselves as Cornish - and I've requested a copy as it's not on their web site. Secretlondon 15:59, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
And I've contacted Cornwall County Council about it, they haven't replied yet. REX 17:27, 26 September 2005 (UTC)


POV continued

Lest see if we can summarise GrandfatherJoe's views to see if he has even an ounce of integrity or impartiality.

Personally, I don't know much about this new Cornish nation ideology, all I know is that just about 2% of Cornwall seem to agree with it

  • That much is evident so why don't you try to find out a bit more, start with the CCC timeline, its really quite good you know.

Now I don't want to speak for all the inhabitants of Cornwall, but if the remaining 98% are not ethnically Cornish, what are they? I would suspect that they view themselves as English

  • This is your POV, most ticked white British.

I believe that this must be made perfectly clear in the article that this Cornish ethnicity stuff is very controverial and is rejected by the significant majority of the Cornish people

  • POV again, infact you don't know the figures do you?

extremist nonsense twice

  • Just because i have been raised by a family and community that led me to think of myself as Cornish; just because some Cornish want equal rights, protection of their language, the right to learn their history and the right to call themsleves by the name in their hearts they are extremist nationalists. However if English people do the same then they are just good hearted cultural activists. What digusting double standards, i see people on this board are not so quick to question the numbers of English or the motivation behind the contributors on that page but here yes, where is your integrity?

promote extremist nonsense that only about 7,000 people agree with

  • Again your POV.

Hold your breath until the next time I edit the page if you like; you will find that turning blue suits you

  • Just very silly really!

than the followers of this new ideology, cult or whatever it is

  • Your lack of historical knowledge is shocking, try some of the links like The Cornish a negelcted nation by Mark Stoyle.

He wants us to accept that there are 250,000 ethnically Cornish

  • Please find where i have written that, our do you just like to misrepresent people.
  • Actually i wrote the following:
  • I think the numbers in this article (especially the headline figure) have been POV, and I would prefer to see a range of (referenced) estimates for the Cornish population figures, which clearly highlight the range of definitions of 'Cornish people', 'Cornish ethnicity' and are clearly rooted in these definitions
  • I think this is a good idea lets apply it with equal zeal (which i know your are all so keen to do) to the English people page and why not all the other people pages, as far as i know the majority in England also ticked white British so i guess they are not English then.

Bretagne 44 17:33, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Well my goodness look at the numbers of English people on the English people page:

Total population: c. 110 million Significant populations in: Great Britain:

  50 million

United States:

  30 million (est)

Canada:

  15 million (est)

Australia:

  10 million (est)

South Africa:

  3 million (est)

South America:

  2 million (est)

Ireland:

  c. 105,000

Where did these figures come from then, quick you lot looks like someone is really full of it over there because this is total POV.

Bretagne 44 17:38, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

It seems that Bretagne 44 likes to take people's quotes out of context and then misrepresent them (a Straw man argument), the tactics are well known. Gee, I bet he thought that no one would notice. If he insists on calling my statements POV then I must say then that that makes two of us. I must also emphasise that I have never edited the Cornish people and inserted POV into it like Bretagne 44 does. He also says that what is written in the article will remain there until a consensus (not concensus) is reached (ie he approves them). He is also evading the subject by trying to direct our attention to another article, a standard tactic of someone who has no sources to back his arguments. As for the English population of other countries (I cannot be sure, I didn't write them) there seems to be some sources. Such as the links EuroAmericans.net and the 2001 Canadian Census give us some indication of the state in the Americas. As for Australia, South Africa, South America and Ireland. We can assume that these figures come from the religion of the people there. Most English people belong to the Church of England. So I suppose that whoever compiled the table looked for adherents of the Church of England in these regions and got his/her estimates from there. Unless of course you believe that the native Irish or Argentinians are also adherents of the CofE. It seems that Bretagne 44 will have to get up earlier in the morning before trying to accuse me of double standards while he has espoused them on many many occasions. I would also like to point out that he has still not told us where he got his 250,000 ethnic Cornish figure from (of course I know, it's his POV). GrandfatherJoe 18:06, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Will you two (Bretagne 44 and GrandfatherJoe) stop bickering like a couple of elderly housewives! That will get us nowhere. In my opinion, the best thing to do now is to wait for the results of the 2001 census results to be delivered and then use that data. REX 18:32, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I have requested mediation and because i did this grandfatherjoe thought it OK to write the following as a message for me on my talk page:

*== Mediation? ==

  • Oh Bretagne 44. What prompted you to rush to this without informing the rest of us? Cowardly tactics! You just revealed that you have no sources to support your arguments. Why else would you secretly take action? GrandfatherJoe 21:28, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

inserted POV into it like Bretagne 44

  • Please give an example of where i have done this GFJ on the page.

trying to direct our attention to another article

  • Just pointing out double standards in the hope that after you are finished here you will rush over there to right a wrong.

would also like to point out that he has still not told us where he got his 250,000 ethnic Cornish figure from (of course I know, it's his POV)

  • yawn, The 250,000 is not my figure, i have never attempted to place a number on this.

However if we look at the numbers of English in England then it seems the English people page uses total population statistics ie 50 million. Now you all know that far from 50 million peoples in England are English but if that is the rule then the figure we should use for Cornwall is the total population of Cornwall otherwise double standards are being applied.

stop bickering like a couple of elderly housewives! That will get us nowhere

  • i totally agree it is just a waste of my time. I am happy to wait for the numbers from the census although you should be aware of the nature in which Cornish was advertised (or not as the case may be) as an option for the census. The fact that many people did not know that this was an option and also in order to write in Cornish i had to indirectly deny being British.
  • The stats from the School census and any figures collected from the Royal Cornwall Hospital would also be illuminating.

Finally so that you all understand the 250,000 figure IS NOT MINE! Bretagne 44 16:10, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Bretagne 44 you really should read straw man argument. It has you written all over it. It is by now a stale tactic. GrandfatherJoe 16:16, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Is that all you have to add? Nothing really to say about the numbers of Cornish then?
  • You asked for proof of the Cornish option on the 2001 census i gave it to you and you did not like it and you could not even say thanks for the proof i provided, instead you were insulting.
  • I have also asked questions concerning the method used for obtaining stats for the numbers of other peoples like English and suggested double standards, whats wrong with that?
  • You have also said that the 250,000 figure was mine, this is not the case, i have told you that but you just keep ignoring the fact that you were wrong.

Bretagne 44 16:48, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

2004 school census

Do we know who carried this out? I can't find any reference to it in Cornwall County Council's statistics pages. It would be good to get the % who ticked Cornish. Secretlondon 15:54, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

You could always try contacting the LEA and/or The Institute of Cornish Studies at Exeter university.

Bretagne 44 16:50, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

I've emailed the LEA. Secretlondon 15:31, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Celtic Frontier or County Boundary?

Added the following link

Bretagne 44 14:52, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Politics

The idea that the numbers who voted for Mebyon Kernow some how indicate the numbers of Cornish is wrong so i have added the following:

However all the Cornish seats returned Liberal Democrat MP's, and it should be noted that the Liberal Democrats in Cornwall have campaigned for Cornish language issues [18][19], Cornish national minority issues and for the establishment of a devolved Cornish Assembly [20] and development agency [21].

Bretagne 44 17:16, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Statistics, fresh and warm from Cornwall County Council

I received a reply from Cornwall County Council. It goes as follows:

You are probably aware that Cornish was not a tick box ethnicity option in the 2001 Census. People had to write it on their forms.

Throughout the UK 37,603 people did that, of whom 33,932 were residents of Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly.

Malcolm Brown

Senior Research and Information Officer


Please note that the Council may need to disclose this e-mail under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 or the Environmental Information Regulations 2004.


Important: This e-mail and its attachments are intended for the above-named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please e-mail us immediately at enquiries@cornwall.gov.uk

Security Warning: Although this e-mail and its attachments have been screened and are believed to be free from any virus, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that they are virus free. The Authority will not accept liability for any damage caused by a virus

If anyone doesn't believe me, If they send me their e-mail I will forward them a copy of the original message. REX 20:35, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

This is great. The ONS have yet to email me back.. Secretlondon 01:58, 1 October 2005 (UTC)


That's great i am happy you got a response from them, that's more than i thought would have written Cornish.

Just consider how stacked the odds were. There was very little publicity to inform the Cornish they could do this for the first time, i still meet Cornish who did not know they could do this. Compare this to the publicity about the census which said if you fill in something inappropriate you could be fined a lot of money. Then there is the fact that you had to deny being British in order to write Cornish. Just imagine how many more would write Cornish if there was a clear tick box for Cornish that did not negate being British! the of course there are all those who consider themselves Britons and not English. On the whole a good result. Bretagne 44 16:52, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

It is a good result for an emerging ideology, but doesn't this put that 250,000 figure in perspective? The statistics indicate that just under 10% of the inhabitants of Cornwall identify with the Cornish ethnic group. What do the rest perceive themselves as? REX 19:40, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
  • In the last Census, the Welsh and Cornish were allocated census codes, but only the Welsh received substantial government funding to publicise that fact.
  • The Cornish were left in the dark and the returns were low. The form itself was confusing and misleading as people had to first decline to mark the BRITISH tick box, and then physically write in the word CORNISH in the "ANY OTHER" BOX.
  • Was it right that people had to first deny that they were British in order to state that they were Cornish ? In order to maximise responses, and produce more accurate and worthwhile data, the Cornish require their own tick box
  • I would contest that a lot more people think themselves Cornish, we can use the recent Morgan Stanley Bank survey to point us in the right direction and we all await the 2004 schools census.
  • The census, due to the way it was run, does not give a clear picture of how many 'Cornish' there are. As to "being Cornish" being an emerging ideology can you justify that statement with regard to Cornish history and the fact we are talking about ethnicity not ideology. The Cornish have been refered to as a people throughout history. This statement by you clearly shows your prejudice and ignorance of histroy. I mean is "being English" an emerging ideology, tut tut tut such double standards, such little integrity.

Bretagne 44 16:59, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

What difference does that make to the reliability of the 250,000 figure? Are we allowed to say that while the census found 33,932 Cornish people in Cornwall, because it was badly publicised not everyone knew that they could write Cornish on their forms, but Bretagne 44 with his magnificent psychic abilities knows that 216,068 more people would have entered Cornish on to their forms if they had known that they could? I think that that seems to touch upon original research (guesswork) which incidentally happens to be prohibited. Why should the Morgan Stanley research be believed over the census results? Apart from the fact that the Morgan Stanley estimate is closer to the kind of estimate that Bretagne 44 likes to believe is true, he is willing to dismiss the census on the grounds that not everyone knew about it, but believes that a 4,000 people survey is much more reliable than a census. Personally, as I am not familiar with the basic tenets of Cornish nationalism, I don't know if one has to renounce being British in order to be ethnically Cornish, but if not then I believe that there should have been a British Cornish tick box. Maybe there will in the next census. I would also like to know, if this Cornish ethnicity stuff is as old as you say it is, then why do not so many people know about it? GrandfatherJoe 17:46, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Bretagne 44, I would like to know why you are attacking me like that. I asked for those results in the first place because of the dispute here and now after I have brought them you continue behaving in the same way. Well, it's up to you obviously, since I will not be participating in this discussion much as I'm afraid I am rather ill-informed. What does trouble me is your constant comparing this situation with the English. You seem to think that since the English people page is (or may be) POV then it is OK for this page to also be POV. Well, Betagne 44 I've got news for you. It doesn't make any difference what this article is like and what the English one is like. Both should be NPOV and you cannot deny that the figures I produced certainly put the 250,000 estimate in perspective, or a GrendpaJoe wisely noted, you cannot know for sure that 216,068 more people would have entered their ethnicity as Cornish if there had been more publicity surrounding the issue. Nor can you choose to ignore the census results and instead use the Morgan Stanley results just because they are (or may be) the kind of results you would like to believe are true. REX 19:31, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

A warm CDR from the Office for National Statistics dropped into my letterbox this lunchtime. It has the CO235 table on and has the same figure REX was given but with a more detailed breakdown - Cornwall is split into 6 regions and the Isles of Scilly. Secretlondon 13:03, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

GrandfatherJoe and REX (good cop bad cop)let me remind you both because it, for some reason, keeps slipping your minds, the 250000 figure is not mine and i would be happy for this box to contain a question mark rather than 250000. Then in the main article you could explore the different sources and estimations while at the same time explaining the difficulty of giving an exact figure.

GFJ, you really do have difficulty grasping what i write don't you, see my paragraph above.

  • Why should the Morgan Stanley research be believed over the census results? Apart from the fact that the Morgan Stanley estimate is closer to the kind of estimate that Bretagne 44 likes to believe is true

It should not but all sources should be mentioned, and i don't believe either are true.

  • I would also like to know, if this Cornish ethnicity stuff is as old as you say it is, then why do not so many people know about it?

I can't help your lack of education and the ignorance of British history that abounds in the English, but anyway try this link The Cornish: A Neglected Nation?By Dr Mark Stoyle[22].

  • I would like to know why you are attacking me like that

I would like to know why you would make such an ignorant statement like "It is a good result for an emerging ideology"? How is being Cornish an emerging ideology, how is being any long standing ethnicity or nationality an emerging ideology. This shows that you don't like people calling themselves Cornish and you attach no value to the Cornish identity or culture.

  • Both should be NPOV and you cannot deny that the figures I produced certainly put the 250,000 estimate in perspective

REX its just another source of information and should be treated as such. Yes the English people page should be NPOV, but it is not so why don't you do something about it as well, or do you want me to? Bretagne 44 18:31, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

MSB survey

If you look at the news article here, you'll see that people were given a three way choice of whether they thought they were Cornish, English or British, and they had to choose one of them. This figure of 44% is therefore including people who think they are English as well, but Cornish first.

Compare this to the rest of England, where, 21% of the people made similar identification with their county first. I will have to get a copy of the full results, but I would guess in say, Yorkshire and Lancashire this could be 30% or so. So is evidence of a strong regional identity. But not necessarily of national identity. Clearly, however, the Census figure is a lower limit, but this is an upper limit, which means the real figure is probably somewhere in between.

By the way, I am not an English (or any sort of) nationalist, and I resent any implication that I am so. I have emailed MSB asking if this survey can be made available to me, so we can confirm the methodology, and also get the stats for English and counties.

It might also be interesting to try to get statistics about place of birth. How many living people born in Cornwall have are now living elsewhere and vice versa? Morwen - Talk 13:29, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

These are very good ideas and i look forward to your findings, and i don't think i have implied that you are a sad English nationalist or lost British Unionist. Bretagne 44 18:35, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I've had an email back from MSB, who are indicating they might send me the press release, and asking why. I've replied. I don't think we'll get the entire survey though. Morwen - Talk 14:58, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
OK. I've had a reply. Figures were more varied than I had expected. 37% for Derbyshire. Maybe we need a Derbyshire people article? ;) Morwen - Talk 15:45, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Well if there was a long history of people in Derbyshire identifying as other than English, another language, a specific constitutional position, competing national identity and Derbyshire nationalist party then maybe there should be such a page, but seeing as there isn't i would say yours is just a glib and vacuous remark

Bretagne 44 15:51, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I've tried to make sense of Bretagne 44's last edit, but I'd appreciate someone who actually has a copy of Payton's book having a look at it to make sure I've interpreted the meaning correctly. Thanks. sjcollier 22:06, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I think he means English people moving to Cornwall and considering themselves to have a Cornish identity (ie based on residency not ethnicity) Secretlondon 23:14, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
Good point, that actually seems more likely. Thanks. I've changed it to say that instead. sjcollier 11:49, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Usually the decendents of English immigrants not the immigrants themselves. Bretagne 44 15:27, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

the Cornish in History

I would like to encourage contribution to a section that will look at references to the Cornish people as a distinct British people throught the history of these isles. Now there have been a lot of individuals wanting to contribute to the Cornish people page of late so i know i will not be short of help. Integrity

Bretagne 44 12:33, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

If I have time this week, I'll try to have a look for any references from Classical antiquity (Gallic Wars, Pytheas etc). sjcollier 11:53, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Added the following, with some help of course, thanks to the kind individual who made my addition more presentable.

  • Lodovico Falier, an Italian diplomat at the Court of Henry VIII is reported to have said The language of the English, Welsh and Cornish men is so different that they do not understand each other, Falier informed a correspondent in 1531, adding that it was possible to distinguish the members of each group by their alleged 'national characteristics'.
  • Seven years later, Gaspard de Coligny Chatillon, the French Ambassador in London, showed that he was aware of an ethnic split. He wrote back to his political masters The kingdom of England is by no means a united whole, for it also contains Wales and Cornwall, natural enemies of the rest of England, and speaking a [different] language.
  • Following the death of Henry's daughter, Elizabeth I, in 1603, the Venetian ambassador wrote that the late queen had ruled over five different 'peoples': 'English, Welsh, Cornish, Scottish ...and Irish.
  • In 1616 Arthur Hopton stated that, England is ...divided into 3 great Provinces, or Countries ...every of them speaking a several and different language, as English, Welsh and Cornish.
  • In 1509 Henry VIII's coronation procession includes "nine children of honour" representing "England and France, Gascony, Guienne, Normandy, Anjou, Cornwall, Wales and Ireland."
  • In 1485 An Italian cleric, Polydore Vergil, living in England and commissioned by the king, Henry VII, to write a history of England made the following distinction, The whole country of Britain is divided into four parts, whereof the one is inhabited by Englishmen, the other of Scots, the third of Welshmen, the fourth of Cornish people … and which all differ among themselves either in tongue, either in manners, or else in laws and ordinances.
  • More recently Jim Fitzpatrick the ODPM Under-Secretary for the current labour government said in the Commons in response to Andrew George a Liberal Democrat MP in Cornwall I realise that the people of Cornwall consider that they have a separate identity.
  • Phil Woolas, Minister for Local Government did the same in answer to a letter from Mebyon Kernow On your point about Cornwall’s desire to control its own future, the Government is very much aware of the strength of feeling about Cornwall’s separate identity and distinctiveness and The Government recognises that many people in Cornwall consider they have a separate identity.

Bretagne 44 18:40, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Even more! Don't you just love it?

  • The Ravenna Cosmography, compiled c700AD from Roman material 300 years older, lists a route running westward into Cornwall. On this route is a place then called Durocornovio (Latinised from Brythonic duno-Cornouio-n "fortress of the Cornish").
  • In 878, the drowned king Donyarth is recorded in the Welsh annals as rex Cerniu King of Cornwall.
  • In 1937 Bartholomew published a Map of European Ethnicity prepared by the Edinburgh Institute of Geography which featured "Celtic Cornish".
  • NGO's such as Eurominority and the Federal Union of European Minorities also give varying degrees of recognition to a Cornish people [23] [24].

Bretagne 44 17:18, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the Ravenna Cosmography entry: not sure if you researched this yourself. The text mentions a Purocoronauis which a few historians have tentatively equated to an otherwise unattested Durocornavium - fort of the Cornovii, who were from Cumbria/Shropshire. There have been a couple of convoluted attempts (involving Cornovii conscripts) to equate Purocoronauis with Carn Brae, due to Purocoronauis being mentuioned as west of the Tamar in Ravenna, but you must remember that ths manuscript is notoriously vague/difficult to interpret/wrong. Either way, not a reference to the Cornish. Otherwise, keep up the good work. sjcollier 21:26, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok thanks for the clarification Added yet more great links. [25][26][27][28] Bretagne 44 17:28, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

As political diseases are naturally contagious, let it be supposed, for a moment, that Cornwall, seized with the Philadelphian phrensy, may resolve to separate itself from the general system of the English constitution, and judge of its own rights in its own parliament. A congress might then meet at Truro, and address the other counties in a style not unlike the language of the American patriots:

FRIENDS AND FELLOW-SUBJECTS,—We, the delegates of the several towns and parishes of Cornwall, assembled to deliberate upon our own state, and that of our constituents, having, after serious debate and calm consideration, settled the scheme of our future conduct, hold it necessary to declare the resolutions which we think ourselves entitled to form, by the unalienable rights of reasonable beings, and into which we have been compelled by grievances and oppressions, long endured by us in patient silence, not because we did not feel, or could not remove them, but because we were unwilling to give disturbance to a settled government, and hoped that others would, in time, find, like ourselves, their true interest and their original powers, and all cooperate to universal happiness.

"But since, having long indulged the pleasing expectation, we find general discontent not likely to increase, or not likely to end in general defection, we resolve to erect alone the standard of liberty.

"Know then, that you are no longer to consider Cornwall as an English county, visited by English judges, receiving law from an English parliament, or included in any general taxation of the kingdom; but as a state, distinct and independent, governed by its own institutions, administered by its own magistrates, and exempt from any tax or tribute, but such as we shall impose upon ourselves.

"We are the acknowledged descendants of the earliest inhabitants of Britain, of men, who, before the time of history, took possession of the island desolate and waste, and, therefore, open to the first occupants. Of this descent, our language is a sufficient proof, which, not quite a century ago, was different from yours.

"Such are the Cornishmen; but who are you? who, but the unauthorised and lawless children of intruders, invaders, and oppressors? who, but the transmitters of wrong, the inheritors of robbery? In claiming independence, we claim but little. We might require you to depart from a land which you possess by usurpation, and to restore all that you have taken from us.

"Independence is the gift of nature. No man is born the master of another. Every Cornishman is a freeman; for we have never resigned the rights of humanity; and he only can be thought free, who is not governed but by his own consent.

"You may urge, that the present system of government has descended through many ages, and that we have a larger part in the representation of the kingdom than any other county.

"All this is true, but it is neither cogent nor persuasive. We look to the original of things. Our union with the English counties was either compelled by force, or settled by compact.

"That which was made by violence, may by violence be broken. If we were treated as a conquered people, our rights might be obscured, but could never be extinguished. The sword can give nothing but power, which a sharper sword can take away.

"If our union was by compact, whom could the compact bind, but those that concurred in the stipulations? We gave our ancestors no commission to settle the terms of future existence. They might be cowards that were frighted, or blockheads that were cheated; but, whatever they were, they could contract only for themselves. What they could establish, we can annul.

"Against our present form of government, it shall stand in the place of all argument, that we do not like it. While we are governed as we do not like, where is our liberty? We do not like taxes, we will, therefore, not be taxed: we do not like your laws, and will not obey them.

"The taxes laid by our representatives, are laid, you tell us, by our own consent; but we will no longer consent to be represented. Our number of legislators was originally a burden, and ought to have been refused; it is now considered as a disproportionate advantage; who, then, will complain if we resign it?

"We shall form a senate of our own, under a president whom the king shall nominate, but whose authority we will limit, by adjusting his salary to his merit. We will not withhold a proper share of contribution to the necessary expense of lawful government, but we will decide for ourselves what share is proper, what expense is necessary, and what government is lawful.

"Till our counsel is proclaimed independent and unaccountable, we will, after the tenth day of September, keep our tin in our own hands: you can be supplied from no other place, and must, therefore, comply, or be poisoned with the copper of your own kitchens.

"If any Cornishman shall refuse his name to this just and laudable association, he shall be tumbled from St. Michael's mount, or buried alive in a tin-mine; and if any emissary shall be found seducing Cornishmen to their former state, he shall be smeared with tar, and rolled in feathers, and chased with dogs out of our dominions. "From the Cornish congress at Truro."

Of this memorial what could be said, but that it was written in jest, or written by a madman? Yet I know not whether the warmest admirers of Pennsylvania eloquence, can find any argument in the addresses of the congress, that is not, with greater strength, urged by the Cornishman.

  • This was written by Samuel Johnson in TAXATION NO TYRANNY AN ANSWER TO THE RESOLUTIONS AND ADDRESS OF THE AMERICAN CONGRESS[29].

I would like suggestions as how to get it into this page. Bretagne 44 19:28, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Cornish diaspora?

I find that bit about the Cornish diaspora a bit POV. There is no Wikipedia:Verifiability on this issue as far as I can see. Where did its authors get informed from? GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 14:56, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't think there can be much dispute over the Cornish Diaspora as a concept (though I have never seen the name used before); a quick Google on "Cornish Society" throws up various Cornish heritage groups in the USA, at least, whilst if you give me a day or two I should be able to come up with sufficient neutral historical references on the emmigration of Cornish miners. However, one saying has it that if you look down a hole anywhere in the world, you will find a Cornishman at the bottom, despite being a genuine Cornish saying, does come across as rather PoV, and I think it could probably be taken out of the article with no real loss. sjcollier 16:01, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
In an attempt to prevent this degenerating an edit war, I'll ask Bretagne 44 to explain here his removal of the disputed PoV tag. Please note that I am not saying whether or not I agree with this, I just think that the decision to do so should be discussed. I will also ask GrandfatherJoe to clarify his statement that "this is a bit POV" and "lacks verifiability", especially as the basic point of the section (Cornish miners went abroad, some of their descendants still consider themselves to have a Cornish heritage) is not really open to dispute. As I pointed out earlier, feelings of Cornish heritage are, if anything, stronger in America than in Cornwall itself. 129.67.2.93 18:21, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Apologies, both that last comment and the edit assigned to that IP were mine, I forgot to sign in. I think I have now expunged any trace of PoV from the Diaspora section, though unless someone can provide evidence for a "growing interest in the Cornish language" overseas that may have to go as well. Aside from that, I don't think the basic facts stated here are questionable - a Google on "Cornish Diaspora" reveals that, yes, some do indeed call it that, and it seems as good a name as any. 129.67.2.93 18:34, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Somebody disabled cookies. 129.67.2.93 is me. sjcollier 18:37, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

All i can say is i have always known it as the Cornish Diaspora, but if you want why not call it the Cornish emmigration and then mention the "D" in the article as being used by some groups, I would be happy with that. Bretagne 44 19:18, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Schools Survey

"A recent survey by Plymouth University found that, if given the opportunity, over a third of pupils in Cornwall schools would identity as Cornish"

Can we have a source for this? I'm still trying to get hold of the actual schools survey. Thanks. Secretlondon 16:59, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[30] Not really a reliable source, though; this should probably go unless someone can produce the actual survey figures (Institute of Cornish Studies might have them). Can 2003 be called recent? sjcollier 17:10, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Looks like its from a partisan press release - maybe Cornwall 2000? I think John Angarrack is their leader. Secretlondon 17:19, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
That's what I mean by "Not really reliable" - Dr Nigel Hicks was one of the English-Heritage-signs-theft gang. Also, the Western Daily Express, that the article puports to come from, does not exist - though from the link they appear to mean the Western Daily Press, a Bristol newspaper. sjcollier 17:41, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Contact Ply Uni, they should be able to help.

Bretagne 44 16:31, 21 October 2005 (UTC)


Where has every body gone, mmmm strange

Anyway here is another great link for the page.

Bretagne 44 17:38, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Maybe a note should be appended to the article saying that it takes the Cornish point of view. I've seen people doing that on other articles. Rex(talk) 18:07, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

REX, I agree, feel free to add such a comment but do try not to be insulting, it does you no credit.

Anyway i have added another link to this part of the article providing the maps in question.

In 1937 Bartholomew published a Map of European Ethnicity prepared by the Edinburgh Institute of Geography which featured "Celtic Cornish"[31].

Bretagne 44 13:25, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Another great link!!!

* A Passion to Exist: Cultural Entrepreneurship and the search for authenticity in Cornwall Bretagne 44 16:55, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Noun

Hey all. The article uses Cornish as a noun, not just an adjective. Can this really be correct? Are there any other nouns used to refer to a single member this group of people (regardless of whether this group, or part of it, constitutes an ethnic group or not). Cheers. //Big Adamsky 16:35, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

? The English ? Bretagne 44 17:29, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The Croyland Chronicle

  • The 15th century Croyland Chronicle states "In order zealously to carry out the same, he sent the venerable men of God, brothers Egelmer and Nigel, his fellow-monks, with relics of the saints, into the western parts, namely, Flanders and France. To the northern parts and into Scotland he sent the brothers Fulk and Oger, and into Denmark and Norway the brothers Swetman and Wulsin the younger; while to Wales, Cornwall and Ireland he sent the brothers Augustin and Osbert".

Bretagne 44 18:53, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Maps at the BBC

Bretagne 44 10:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Cornwall - English regional identities

Are the Mercians an ethnic group? They have their own independence movement [32], flag, and even a historical language (the Mercian dialect of Anglo-Saxon, made famous by Tolkien in his depiction of Rohan). They have a strong regional identity and many other potential trappings of nationhood. Yet are they English? Of course they are! Just like the Cornish. TharkunColl 12:42, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Like the Mercian constitution, very much based on anarchist principles. Fab. Alun 17:51, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Celts

""Celtic" is a linguistic term. The Cornish language is dead. Therefore the Cornish are not Celtic, but Germanic" - TharkunColl

Say what? Celtic is not solely a linguistic term, any more than Germanic is. Speaking a Germanic language does not make one Germanic. See (for example) the numerous Native American peoples whose own language is now extinct, and who now speak only English, but who would probably be rather less than pleased at being described as a "Germanic" ethnic group. sjcollier 00:24, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

No, Celtic is a linguistic term and nothing else. It has nothing to do with race. TharkunColl 07:19, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

And ethnicity is not the same as race. Why is Germanic a linguistic term and Celtic not? By your definition, are the people of France, Spain, Portugal and Romania all ethnically Italic?
Here, just out of interest, is the definition from the 2nd edition OED:
Celtic, a.
1. Hist. and Archæol. Of or belonging to the ancient Celtæ and their presumed congeners.
2. Epithet of the languages and peoples akin to the ancient Celtic; particularly, of the great branch of the Aryan family of languages which includes Breton, Welsh, Irish, Manx, Scotch Gaelic, the extinct Cornish, and the ancient languages which they represent.
sjcollier 11:51, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Also, from the notes to the OED entry for Celt, n.:
"the name Celt has come to be applied to any one who speaks (or is descended from those who spoke) any Celtic language" sjcollier 12:00, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

If Celtic is defined as a people who speak a Celtic language, or those who are descended from people who spoke a Celtic language, then the English are Celtic too. They are descended from the ancient Britons just as much as the Cornish and Welsh are - as genetic studies have now proven. Just like the Cornish and (most of) the Welsh, they gave up speaking Celtic and switched to English. TharkunColl 12:32, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I never said that the English weren't Celtic. Would you identify the English as a Germanic ethnic group, then? And please can you justify your assertation that the Cornish are ethnically Germanic?
By the way, can you cite sources for your "genetic studies" claim? If you, would you mind providing the many missing citations over on English people? sjcollier 12:46, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

No, I said that the Cornish are linguistically Germanic. This is surely indisputable. I never said anything about ethnicity, except that it has nothing to do with linguistics. There is actually no such thing as ethnic classifations into Germanic or Celtic, as ethnic identity is not dependent on language. As for the cites, I believe they are referenced on the English people talk page (though I could be wrong). TharkunColl 13:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, the OED (which I realise should not be believed unquestioningly) takes Germanic as a racial term, as well as a linguistic one:
Germanic
A. adj.
1. a. Of or pertaining to Germany or to the Germans, German. Now chiefly Hist. in Germanic Confederation, Germanic Empire.
b. Marked by German characteristics. Germanic region (see quot.).
2. Of or pertaining to the Teutonic race, or any of the Teutonic peoples. With reference to language, often used by philologists as = ‘Primitive Germanic’.
But anyway, I'm happy to let the opening sentence stand as it is. It was just that it seemed from your edit summary that you were suggesting that the opening sentence should be "The Cornish are a Germanic ethnic group...", which would be rather misleading.
I trust you now intend to make similar edits to the openings of Welsh people and Breton people. sjcollier 13:55, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Welsh and Bretons are a bit more of a grey area because some of them still speak a Celtic language. Some of them, therefore, are Celts (albeit a minority). TharkunColl 15:38, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

"The Cornish people are the inhabitants of the county of Cornwall..."

I think a large number of the inhabitants of the county of Cornwall would not identify themselves as a member of the "Cornish people", just as not everybody living in Barcelona would identify themselves as a member of the "Catalan people". sjcollier 12:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Who ever is making changes without discussing it first please grow up our you will be banned.

1) The Cornish people are not English and the last UK census allowed for the recording of Cornish identity instead of English; the Cornish had their own code '06'.

2) the Cornish language still exists and is spoken by more and more Cornish folk, there are even some first language speakers. The Cornish language is a recognised EU and UK minority language.

So there you have it, Cornish is still spoken and therefore by the criteria of the British/English nationalist who has recently joined the debate, the Cornish are an ethnic group.Bretagne 44 10:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that whether or not the Cornish are an ethnic group is the issue; it's whether or not they can be called Celtic. To be honest, I don't think it really matters whether the word Celtic appears in the opening sentence or not; either way, your new introduction is a decent compromise. sjcollier 11:06, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Cornwall is a part of England so Cornish people are as much English as anyone else in England. Most people in Cornwall too would not dispute that they are English regardless of what else they would define themselves. For this reason too, the Cornish language should be added to the English People page as a language of England. Enzedbrit 21:09, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the problem with doing that would be that is that there are both fewer total speakers and an awful lot fewer first-language speakers of Cornish in England than there are of, say, Punjabi or Bengali, so the result would be a comically long list of languages on the English People page. sjcollier 21:18, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that this would be the case at all. Languages like Punjabi or Bengali are not indigenous to Britain. 'Technically' no language spoken in Britain today is indigenous I admit, but English is the language of the indigenous majority, and Cornish is also a langauge of the indigenous people. The article in question is about English people. Punjabi and Bengali are not associated with English people, but English and Cornish are. Enzedbrit 09:11, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
So are you simply going to tell speakers of those languages who identify themselves as a member of an "English people" that they are wrong? (cf. Telex's comments below about self-identification...) sjcollier 12:48, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry but I don't know what you mean by this? Do you mean that I would presume to tell people who speak Punjabi or Bengali and who identify as English that they are not English? No, I am not, but I doubt there are any monoglot or first language Punjabi or Bengali indigenous British people, English or otherwise. Speakers of those languages would be covered by Punjabi People or Bengali People, if such Wikipedia pages exist Enzedbrit 21:06, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
PS. At the risk of stirring up another hornets' nest, there is a sound linguistic argument that would class Cornish as a non-indigenous language as it has been artificially reintroduced; but as that's not really relevant in this case, let's not go there.
  • As a language of the indigenous people then Cornish will always have that fact to keep it as indigenous. As a language that has been artificially reintroduced, Cornish is sond of Britain having come from nowhere else and is indigenous. Maybe we should 'go there'? Enzedbrit 21:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes and Tibet is part of China as Chechnya is part of Russia, but that does not make Tibetans Chinese or Chechens Russian does it? Bretagne 44 13:35, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

That's totally different to Cornwall and England, and it does actually make those people Chinese and Russian. Cornwall has been a part of England for as long as there has been an England. Cornwall is no less English than any other part of England. Enzedbrit 09:11, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Self-identification is the key. Everyone should be able to determine who they are (self determination). In this case, some sorting out needs to be done. In Cornwall there seem to be three groups: a) the English, b) the ethnically Cornish, who view the Cornish ethnicity as something compatible with the English (a subset of the English ethnicity), and c) the ethnically Cornish who determine themselves as not being English, but a separate ethnic group altogether (like the Welsh and Scots). Things are not all black and white. The same distinction is drawn amongst the Chechens and Tatars in Russia - it's a common thing to happen to an assimilated ethnicity. Everyone's right to self determination should be respected, including the Cornish who view themselves as a subset of the English and the Cornish who view themselves as being seperate. Telex 13:48, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree in principle, but you seen to have forgotten those people who identify themselves as Cornish-and-British-but-not-English, as opposed to Cornish-and-nothing-else. On the whole, though, I would tend to go for a simpler introduction, and move the details somewhere else in the article. sjcollier 20:30, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, at the end of the day the phenomena of a "Cornish people" exists and it cannot simply be placed in a context of English region. Many are Cornish-English, Cornish-English-British, just English, Just British, but some are just Cornish or Cornish-British without even bring in the European or internationalist aspect.Bretagne 44 13:48, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


Paganism?

How many Cornish are Pagans? Why is it listed under religion? TharkunColl 20:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

At a guess, proportionally slightly more than in the rest of the UK population; but still a tiny minority. Probably somebody trying to manufacture a druidic-Celtic cultural link. Get rid of it, I say. sjcollier 23:41, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I dont know and neither do either of you know how many Cornish are pagans so i suggest you go and find out before you start making changes to an article you know little about. You could start by asking the office of national statitics.Bretagne 44 09:56, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, it's up to whoever put the "Paganism" in the factbox to provide the evidence that they constitute a sufficiently significant proportion of the population to merit inclusion. If there is no evidence for it, then it should go. According to the 2001 census, 0.46% of the population of Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly described themselves as "Other", which would inculde Paganism. On that basis, I'd say that the Pagan population is not significant enough.
By the way "an article you know little about"? If I recall correctly, I've been working on this for almost as long as you have. sjcollier 11:24, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Right, have got rid of "Paganism", until someone can produce a convincing source to show that Paganists currently make up more than, say, 0.1% of the "Cornish People". At the moment, you could go on forever with "some...": there are quite big Muslim and Eastern Orthodox communities in Truro; there were, until the late 19th Century, very strong Jewish communities in Penzance and Falmouth; most large towns have a Chruch of Latter-day Saints and a Roman Catholic chruch; and I dare say that the full details from the last census would probably reveal there to be a few Buddhists, Sikhs, Zoroastrains, Rastafarians and even the odd Jedi or two. Beides which, there are over thirty times as many non-religious people as there can possibly be Paganists in Cornwall under the 2001 census, so if the Paganists get in the factbox, they definitely should... sjcollier 18:53, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
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