Talk:Corna

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Contents 1 Picture 2 Merge 3 Article Title 4 New picture? 5 Origin of the Corna 6 Variants 7 Heavy Metal Sign 8 The Breakfast Club 9 Satanism

[edit] Picture

I think the picture "Berlusconi corna.jpg" is a fake. Look at the differently colored background where the index and middle finger should be. I can't find the original photo anywhere, though, so need to confirm. --Alban 09:28, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

No, it is true. Berlusconi himself explained that he was joking with a group of boy-scouts. GhePeU 17:33, 1 November 2005 (UTC) -- Can you post any source for this? --BugEyes 22:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

About the merger with Hook 'em Horns: I am against, since the gesture is similar, but the meaning different and totally unrelated. Even the Metal/Rock/Satanist/whatever meaning derives, as stated in the article, from Italian folklore. I think a link is enough.

I agree, it's a completely different meaning.--JW1805 18:26, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

But that's what a disambiguation page is for, right? Except, then, I guess what is the 'official' world-wide name? —Fitch 19:25, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't see a reason NOT to merge these articles. Even within this article there are different meanings attributed to the sign (partially overlapping), so I don't see why one specific meaning should have it's own article. And speaking of an official world wide name: why would there be one? Seems like everyone calls it something else, but it's still the same sign. RagingR2 14:01, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article Title

I am not convinced by the move from Mano Cornuto. Google hits for that seem to reliably point to information on the gesture According to Bablefish, "mano cornuto" means "cuckold hand", which is consistant with usage, "mano cornuta" means "horned hand", and "corno", not "corna" means horn, and "corni" means horns. I don't know Italian, but my sese from Google is that "mano cornuto" is most associated with this gesture. —BenFrantzDale 03:22, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi, "Mano cornuto" is indeed a common misspelling in English and German. However, "Mano" is definitely a feminine word (from Latin's fourth declension, manus, -us), and therefore its adjectives have to be of the correct gender (cornuta is feminine, cornuto is masculine). Babelfish' translation is literally correct, but does not make any sense in Italian. The origin of the "mano cornuto" misspelling are probably a very interesting issue, I would suspect that it first arised in English-speaking countries where spelling is more irregular, and an "a" could get mistaken for an "o". For the record I do speak Italian. --Orzetto 17:12, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm Italian, and I've always called this gesture "corna". While "mano cornuta" is syntactically correct, no one I know calls it that way. "Mano cornuto" is clearly wrong. Mushroom 05:09, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New picture?

I just removed the clay sculpture picture since it didn't provide anything new. While Jeremykemp did a great job making a bunch of hand gesture pictures, I would like to see a new leading image. The current one looks like it was taken by the same person doing the gesture and is the back of the hand. An ideal picture would be fairly close up of a famous metal artist in a performance. A croud at a concert showing the horns (correctly) could also be a good; either of these would show its cultural significance. Alternately, an old drawing of the gesture would suggest its long history. —BenFrantzDale 16:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the Corna

The claim that Gene Simmons (or anyone else) "invented" the symbol in 1977 is simply inane. The 11th Series of the "Wacky Packages" issued by Topps Chewing Gum company in 1974 clearly shows the gesture. It was sufficiently well-known at that time that it could be used for a humorous purpose. The Wacky Package in question is the "Cult 45" package from the 11th Series. Here's a link to an excellent image of the sticker: http://www.wackypackages.org/stickers/11th_series/cult45_small_smaller_images.html

Lark

Gene Simmons is such a liar saying that he "invented" the corna in 1977. It's been around for a lot longer than that. And here's proof. Take note of John Lennon's hand.

[edit] Variants

Hey, maybe I'm old or out of it or both, but where I come from, when I was a kid (in the 50s) the gesture was used in response to a statement whose veracity one wished to challenge - in other words, it simply means "bullshit."

Isn't this the same gesture used by members of the Salvadoran gang Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13)? Akira 18:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting.... You're referring to the variant of the corna done with both hands, referred to as "too much metal for one hand" in the main article, specifically what I'll call the "South American sub-variant", done with index fingers instead of pinkies. Here's an article about the afore-mentionned gang that includes a picture of a MS-13 member's tattoos showing the gesture on his chest:

[Hispanic gang sets up in Vancouver: Vancouver Province, March 16, 2006: http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=b0ae9414-d9ec-4100-b736-32e84d2f9694]

--BugEyes 23:09, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

doesn't spider-man use this gesture? anon 07:36, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

That's reversed, pointing to the ground. And I think he stretches the thumb too. Anyway, it might be mentioned. --Orzetto 10:50, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I believe Spider-man's gesture is due to his having the middle and ring fingers pushed into his palm to unleash his web which is contained in a device in his wrist.68.110.179.53 08:04, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Spider-man enjoys music even though hes out fighting crime. Spider-man uses this hand symbol and says that hes "web-slinging" as an excuse. We all know hes actually a metal fan. In Flames, At The Gates and The Haunted to be specific. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.172.126.244 (talk) 15:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC).

--Reading this article (for reasons unclear even to myelf), I was surprised that the offensive or insulting variant of this gesture was not mentionned. Growing up in Eastern Ontario and Quebec (Canada) in the 70s and 80s, kids used a similar gesture basically to insult or offend at a distance. It was done with the palm facing toward you, so that you were showing the victim the back of your closed hand with the two fingers pointing up. It was sometimes accompanied by an upwards shoving gesture and a grimace, much as you see with the Finger (gesture). I learned this gesture before I ever saw anyone use the finger, and always understood it to mean "f*ck off": it was the rudest gesture I knew, and I considered it too crude to use myself (although no saint, really). When I later learned of the Mediterranean corna, I assumed it had evolved from this "casting and warding of the evil eye" into a general rude insulting gesture (only with the hand flipped around). I was quite surprised therefore when this "heavy metal" gesture became commonplace in the 80s, first with Sabbath fans, then just about everyone connected to rock music. I also noticed that the gesture I describe above soon fell into disuse, to be formally replaced by the Finger (gesture), which I always thought of as an American import, regardless of Trudeau (see Finger (gesture)). Am I the only one who remembers this and could it have had only a limited regional use?

Also, later in Quebec (again in the 80s), a French (from Europe) gesture became popular, which uses a crooked-arm, upward-thrusting motion with the fist, a motion violently stopped with a slap of the other hand against the biceps of the arm with the fist. This gesture quite graphically (and gallically I might add) means "up yours", but I always thought the motion was similar to both the gesture I remember from childhood and the "finger" salute.--BugEyes 22:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Heavy Metal Sign

It is stated that Gene Simmons may have invented the sign for the album "Love Guns" in 1977. However, in the Frank Zappa concert of the same year, featured in the film Baby Snakes, several people can clearly be seen making the sign. Perhaps someone with more information can do someting?

[edit] The Breakfast Club

• In the 1985 movie The Breakfast Club, the principal, Mr. Vernon (played by Paul Gleason), uses the corna as an analogy, stating, "You mess with the bull, you get the horns," a Texas Longhorn reference.

Wrong.

• 0:07:53 -- Mr. Vernon says to John Bender "Don't mess with the bull young man, you'll get the horns." and DOES NOT show the corna.
• 0:20:05 -- Mr. Vernon shows the corna, but does not say anything related to his hand, to bulls or horns.

Also, there doesn't seem to be a direct Texas Longhorn reference. -- Sy / ^(talk) 03:47, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Satanism

Well, I've never seen Satanism and popular culture together before. But the sign is ubiquitous throughout different strands of Satanism. In LaVeyan Satanism, it should be noted it is done with the left hand. I really wish I could give an appropriate citation, but I cannot remember which book(s) LaVey went into this, and he was never fond of indexes; unfortunately. I would recommend asking a Satanist wikipedian, as they would probably know. Khirad 04:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)