Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest
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This page is for discussing edits concerning the Wikipedia:Conflict of interest guideline. For assistance with concerns about an article relative to this guideline please utilize the conflict of interest noticeboard. |
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[edit] "Self promotion"?
I want to put up a page about a family owned company. I don't want to promote it--the business is operated for family and by family--not for anyone else. Can I do it?
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- Thanks for asking. However, this isn't the right place to discuss individual articles. You can try Wikipedia:Help desk. You should also look at Wikipedia:Notability before creating any new articles. Jehochman (Talk/Contrib) 15:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
--thanks, will do
[edit] Lead Edit, Rest Needs Clean Up
I revised the major bullet points to remove internal inconsistency and reflect what we've been discussing since everyone seems close to agreement. If I am wrong, feel free to change or revert. I don't mind. Can we clean up the rest of the guideline. It's too wordy, resulting in redundancy and inconsistency. Jehochman (Talk/Contrib) 04:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- Completely in agreement here. Also like the direction Mike4ty4 is going in content and tone, though I agree re abridging. Thank you! --Jim Butler(talk) 05:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- I think the article needs work, but the recent edits were generally a step in the wrong direction (not to mention they made it longer). Editors shouldn't ever link to their own sites, period, nor write articles about themselves. Overall, the changes are a weakening of the guideline, which I think is a really bad idea. Editors spamming and writing about themselves is a big problem, and the last thing we need to do is making it seem more acceptable. What's the reasoning behind these changes, is WP really suffering because editors aren't writing about themselves and linking to their own sites enough? --Milo H Minderbinder 12:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- Milo, did you catch the discussion above, under Guideline is based on ad hominem? Editors who edit within policy should not be penalized for who they are off-WP. This guideline should be cautionary only. thx, Jim Butler(talk) 01:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- While it is cautionary, it also needs to be useful to those dealing with COI problems. When someone spams or makes POV edits about themselves or their organization, this guideline is an important tool to be able to point to. With the new version, there's much more room for wikilawyering - an editor can just argue they were "using great caution" in their COI edits and doing nothing that wasn't allowed by the guideline. The problem with editing articles about yourself is that you don't have the perspective to know when you're being biased. For the same reason, it's a bad idea to let editors judge for themselves whether they're "using great caution" - if other editors are telling you that your edits are POV and you're showing a COI, you generally are. I'm not sure why there's such concern about "penalizing" editors. Spam and COI editing is a big problem on wikipedia. Is the inability of editors to write articles about themselves and link to their own sites a problem? A big enough one to risk making the spam problem worse over? --Minderbinder 01:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- If the edits are POV, then we revert them and deal with the editor, whether the editor has apparent COI or not. Why are bad edits by COI editors any worse than bad edits by non-COI ones, or anon ones who may or may not have COI? As Jehochman says, policies are in place to deal with noncompliant editors. Don't we want people who pass WP:BIO to edit topics that they are familiar with? Under the "don't ever do it" COI guideline, Richard Dawkins could not come here and edit his own article (other than to remove libel), or articles about alternative medicine. That is absurd. We're throwing out the baby with the bathwater here, and per Jehochman, moreover moving into mediocre, wikiality-land by still allowing anon edits. thx, Jim Butler(talk) 01:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Honestly, I don't want to see anyone editing articles about themself, Richard Dawkins or otherwise - if he wants to contribute to his article, he can participate on the talk page, and the editors of the article can always consent to IAR and letting him edit if they believe him to be handling it neutrally. As for alternative medicine, it probably just depends what part of the article he were to edit. Can you provide an example of an article suffering because the subject couldn't write it? And have you had to deal with COI editors and spammers? --Minderbinder 01:32, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- To answer your questions in turn: (1) not offhand; (2) sure, I've had to deal with contentious editors (with or without arguable COI) and linkspam. They're equally a pain in the ass whether they have COI or not, aren't they? Either way, WP:DR has mechanisms to deal with them. But Jehochman is right that motivated editors will edit anyway (IP proxies, meatpuppetry etc.). Do you disagree?
- I'm especially concerned about a blanket ban on editors writing about subjects they're "closely connected to", in addition to articles about themselves. The harms of taking COI too far are plenty evident in the ArbCom case I mentioned above.
- Why shouldn't a non-anonymous editor be able to edit whatever s/he wants, as long as the edits are otherwise compliant? A guy like Dawkins shouldn't even have a chance to edit alt-med stuff, because he might not be compliant, whereas some anonymous high school kid can? "Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone (except experts) can edit." How utterly mediocre. If the guideline as you contemplate it flies, a fork of WP can't happen too soon. sincerely, Jim Butler(talk) 03:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Honestly, I don't want to see anyone editing articles about themself, Richard Dawkins or otherwise - if he wants to contribute to his article, he can participate on the talk page, and the editors of the article can always consent to IAR and letting him edit if they believe him to be handling it neutrally. As for alternative medicine, it probably just depends what part of the article he were to edit. Can you provide an example of an article suffering because the subject couldn't write it? And have you had to deal with COI editors and spammers? --Minderbinder 01:32, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- If the edits are POV, then we revert them and deal with the editor, whether the editor has apparent COI or not. Why are bad edits by COI editors any worse than bad edits by non-COI ones, or anon ones who may or may not have COI? As Jehochman says, policies are in place to deal with noncompliant editors. Don't we want people who pass WP:BIO to edit topics that they are familiar with? Under the "don't ever do it" COI guideline, Richard Dawkins could not come here and edit his own article (other than to remove libel), or articles about alternative medicine. That is absurd. We're throwing out the baby with the bathwater here, and per Jehochman, moreover moving into mediocre, wikiality-land by still allowing anon edits. thx, Jim Butler(talk) 01:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- While it is cautionary, it also needs to be useful to those dealing with COI problems. When someone spams or makes POV edits about themselves or their organization, this guideline is an important tool to be able to point to. With the new version, there's much more room for wikilawyering - an editor can just argue they were "using great caution" in their COI edits and doing nothing that wasn't allowed by the guideline. The problem with editing articles about yourself is that you don't have the perspective to know when you're being biased. For the same reason, it's a bad idea to let editors judge for themselves whether they're "using great caution" - if other editors are telling you that your edits are POV and you're showing a COI, you generally are. I'm not sure why there's such concern about "penalizing" editors. Spam and COI editing is a big problem on wikipedia. Is the inability of editors to write articles about themselves and link to their own sites a problem? A big enough one to risk making the spam problem worse over? --Minderbinder 01:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Milo, did you catch the discussion above, under Guideline is based on ad hominem? Editors who edit within policy should not be penalized for who they are off-WP. This guideline should be cautionary only. thx, Jim Butler(talk) 01:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- I think the article needs work, but the recent edits were generally a step in the wrong direction (not to mention they made it longer). Editors shouldn't ever link to their own sites, period, nor write articles about themselves. Overall, the changes are a weakening of the guideline, which I think is a really bad idea. Editors spamming and writing about themselves is a big problem, and the last thing we need to do is making it seem more acceptable. What's the reasoning behind these changes, is WP really suffering because editors aren't writing about themselves and linking to their own sites enough? --Milo H Minderbinder 12:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
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- Milo, the edit intended to eliminate internal inconsistency. We had sentences that allowed wiggle room, and some others that didn't. I tried to make everything line up. Moreover, we have a real problem if we give anonymous editors a leg up over those who choose to identify themselves. If an anonymous editor makes good edits, you have no, ABSOLUTELY NO, way to tell if he has COI or not. Meanwhile, if somebody else decides to identify themselves, and makes the same good edit, somebody could potentially use a tighter version of this guideline to pounce on them. Identified editors shouldn't be treated worse than anonymous editors. In any case, the problems that COI seeks to prevent are covered by other policies. This guideline is here precisely to caution people so we have less Wikilawyering, not more. If somebody makes a bad edit, this guideline isn't going to give them any comfort. Instead, we can point to WP:COI and say "You were warned, but you decided to take the risk, and now you see the consequences." Jehochman (Talk/Contrib) 03:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
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- However, the discussion Jim cited, "Guideline is based on ad hominem", is not talking about POV edits, which are obviously bad, but about neutral edits. Those are not bad. And what about cases where the editor is informed of their bias, but then attempts to correct that bias? Ie. where they do not have intent on being biased? mike4ty4 07:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
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(undent)Jim - I don't agree that they're equally a pain in the ass, generally COI edits have been much easier to deal with because the guideline was clear cut. DR has mechanisms to deal either way, but the process is (was?) much simpler with COI situations. "Closely connected to" is a strawman, nobody has argued that people shouldn't edit topics they're experts in, only ones about themselves or their organization. Dawkins could certainly edit alt-med stuff, you just happened to list an article that discusses him by name. In regard to information about him, a high school kid might be a better judge of what is a neutral way to describe him and his work. People generally aren't as good at evaluating themselves as neutrally as third parties are, regardless of education or expertise. Jehochman, I have never advocated "pouncing" on those who make good edits - anyone who makes POV edits should be dealt with, and the point of this policy isn't to punish those with who are neutral and follow the rules but to make it easier to deal with COI editors who do make POV edits. --Minderbinder 03:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- If somebody writes an article about me, I certainly should be allowed to make neutral edits. For instance, if they get my year of birth wrong, or spell my name wrong, why shouldn't I correct it? If there is no POV problem, then there is no COI problem either. I agree with you that run-of-the-mill POV problems are less severe than a POV + COI problem. The latter is much more likely to result in an edit war, or other persistent disruption. This guideline puts every editor on notice that there are serious consequences for COI motivated edits that violate other policies. Essentially, COI is an "intensifying" factor when we consider what to do about somebody who makes bad edits. Jehochman (Talk/Contrib) 04:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Things like birthday or name spelling can be corrected, and WP guidelines already say that's fine. --Minderbinder 04:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Dissagree. "exercise great caution" defeats the purpose of having the guideline. Edits other than vandalism removal are a conflict of interest. common sense would allow editing if the year of birth is wrong, or spelling is off, no one will revert that. This opens the flood gates for the PR drones, spammers and self promoters. The spam problem is massive on wikipedia, it has always been acceptable for someone with a COI to participate in the articles development on the talk page, this does not need to change. Take a look over at WT:WPSPAM most of the spam comes from those with a conflict of interest. heres one from the archives [1].--Hu12 07:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Surely we can forbid linkspam while allowing substantive, neutral edits from interested (and potentially expert) parties, per above... thx, Jim Butler(talk) 07:39, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
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- Agree. It needs to be a sharper implement. However lots of spammers argue the toss about the wording. As worded "if you have a conflict of interest, you should XYZ when editing articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors" it would apply to a wide range of good faith edits which is why "XYZ" cannot be a blanket prohibition. For me XYZ would pretty much rule out the whole of the international charitable and UK government sectors which is a bit ridiculous. I think we should have an "always back down in disputes if you are conflicted" and something specific about link spam perhaps prohibit addition of more than one link ever? --BozMo talk 08:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
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- I like the current wording because it allows the necessary wiggle room for people to make the common sense edits that are obviously NPOV, while allowing us to stop COI edits that show any sign of POV. Can anyone suggest better wording that achieves these two goals? Our problem is that COI is a big gray area, so we need to be careful not to over-regulate or else we could discourage participation by people who may be involved in a field. Jehochman (Talk/Contrib) 15:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- I think the previous version already had sufficient wiggle room, if you really think "common sense edits" need to be mentioned you could just say something like "You should feel free to correct mistaken or out-of-date facts about yourself, such as marital status, current employer, place of birth, and so on." from AUTO. I still don't see why we need "wiggle room" for adding links to your own website. How does saying not to do that discourage "experts" or prevent good faith edits? And I still don't see any reason why anyone would ever need to link to their own website, even once. If a link needs to be added, they can just suggest it on the talk page, and if it's appropriate other editors will add it. --Minderbinder 15:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- What if I want to add an article about myself to a proper category, such as Category:Living people? Jehochman (Talk/Contrib) 17:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- If it's uncontroversial, nobody would object to you doing it. If it was something potentially controversial or with POV connotations, it would be better to request on the talk page. --Minderbinder 17:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- All POV edits are actually prohibited by official policy, anyways. NPOV is absolute and non-negotiable. mike4ty4 07:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
- If it's uncontroversial, nobody would object to you doing it. If it was something potentially controversial or with POV connotations, it would be better to request on the talk page. --Minderbinder 17:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- What if I want to add an article about myself to a proper category, such as Category:Living people? Jehochman (Talk/Contrib) 17:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- I think the previous version already had sufficient wiggle room, if you really think "common sense edits" need to be mentioned you could just say something like "You should feel free to correct mistaken or out-of-date facts about yourself, such as marital status, current employer, place of birth, and so on." from AUTO. I still don't see why we need "wiggle room" for adding links to your own website. How does saying not to do that discourage "experts" or prevent good faith edits? And I still don't see any reason why anyone would ever need to link to their own website, even once. If a link needs to be added, they can just suggest it on the talk page, and if it's appropriate other editors will add it. --Minderbinder 15:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- I like the current wording because it allows the necessary wiggle room for people to make the common sense edits that are obviously NPOV, while allowing us to stop COI edits that show any sign of POV. Can anyone suggest better wording that achieves these two goals? Our problem is that COI is a big gray area, so we need to be careful not to over-regulate or else we could discourage participation by people who may be involved in a field. Jehochman (Talk/Contrib) 15:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
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- But the group of editors, say, my edits have addressed, are those that are not self-promoters, PR drones, or spammers. Can you provide, then, a better route that: a. forbids spam, self-promotion, PR drones, etc. b. allows neutral editing and condones honest attempts to be neutral. The "ideal" guideline should be expected to do both. In my opinion, a true conflict of interest is when someone comes in with an intent to push a POV for themselves, their organization, etc. and starts POV pushing, not unconscious biases that he is willing to shed and work on through practice and cooperation with the community, or simple association with the subject of an article without any malicious intent. Unbiased edits, if they manage to get pulled off, should never be discouraged simply because the person is closely associated with something. The very term "conflict of interest" itself denotes that the person has an interest that conflicts with that of Wikipedia, namely an interest that is counter to Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Interests are conscious and intentional, not unconscious -- ie. they would have deliberate intent to be biased. The people that my argument, and Jehochman's, and others, addresses are not these with such deliberate vanity intentions, but rather those who have no such intentions and want to, and do, edit neutrally. The "pro-ban" advocates seem to keep dancing around this point and focusing only on the obvious, open-and-shut, never-disputed issue of spammers and other ill-intentioned people. Those people are not who my (and others') argument addresses. If you want to make a good case for total banning, then I would suggest you start by providing a substantial and direct answer to this question: Why should we ban people who want to be neutral and try to be neutral? mike4ty4 07:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Personal photos of anonymous people
Is there any policy about pictures of anonymous people being used as examples in articles such as blond? In particular these two pictures:
In the second image the persons name is identifiable on a name tag.
It seems like these images violate Wikipedia:Conflict of interest .." self-promotion, including advertising links, personal website links in articles, personal or semi-personal photos, or any other material that appears to promote the private or commercial interests of the editor adding the material, or of his associates."
In addition the images may be problematic because of personality rights.[2]
Are there any rules or policies on this? The problem is not unique to blond but also brunette and I imagine many other articles where people can go about placing their mug-shots under the guise of an "example".
I'm running it a real problem with one editor who is strongly pushing the above two pictures and seems to have some sort of sexual attraction and is trying to track down who these people are. How to deal with something like this? Do we need more specific guidelines on using photos of living people, similar to WP:BLP? IMO, non-notable people need to give explicit permission for their photo to be used in a Wikipedia article because the context of its usage can be problematic. You know, suddenly finding your Creative Commons licensed Flicker image up on the Wikipedia article "ugly" might not be so cool. -- Stbalbach 05:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- That doesn't feel like self-promotion to me. They're not really drawing attention to anything (business, website, whatever). So I don't think it's a problem. >Radiant< 13:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Radiant! I wouldn't go looking for trouble. If an article needs a picture, and somebody adds one, and it happens to be their friend, no big deal. On the other hand, if somebody removes a perfectly good picture to replace it with one of their friend, or if they added some sort of promotional caption, that would be dickish. Jehochman (Talk/Contrib) 14:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] AUTO is NOT policy
Hi.
I just saw that a reference to WP:AUTO that I removed, namely the one in the beginning section where it was being called a "policy", was added back in. WP:AUTO is more of a clarification of a specific instance of WP:COI, and it also not a policy. I do not see why it needs to be emphasized so much over any other COI or N guideline so much, and why it keeps getting called a "policy" so consistently. Has there been some promotion of WP:AUTO to official policy? If so, should WP:COI become one too? And should we change the guideline tag on WP:AUTO to an official-policy tag to reflect this apparent policy-ness? I would have changed it back again, but I'm not going to start an edit war over it, I'd rather discuss things instead. mike4ty4 00:43, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Whoops! Just examined the revert. "And guidelines" was added, so I guess it's better. But I'm still curious as to why WP:AUTO is emphasized so much. mike4ty4 00:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Because people have a tendency to write articles about themselves, and in general they shouldn't. >Radiant< 09:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- It is also not advisable to write about any conflict of interest without consensus, period. mike4ty4 07:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
- Because people have a tendency to write articles about themselves, and in general they shouldn't. >Radiant< 09:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Conflict of interest related additions
I'm currently involved in a polite disagreement over at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam#DermAtlas, and I'd welcome feedback from this community.--Hu12 02:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Conflict with WP:BLP
I've complained about this before in Wikipedia_talk:Autobiography, but after someone mentioned it on wikien, and I checked, it turns out this page is even worse.
We expect that people *should* be able to edit articles about themselves for BLP considerations. This guideline states in such strong terms that users are discouraged from doing so, that any newcomer who reads it will conclude that such things are prohibited. A newcomer isn't going to know the difference between "strongly discouraged", "is considered a standard that all users should follow", "avoid or exercise great caution", etc. and an actual prohibition; the fact that the article literally speaking doesn't prohibit such editing and instead just really really steers users away from it, won't make any practical difference.
This *needs* to be fixed. This guideline as it is goes completely against BLP. Ken Arromdee 23:04, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Typical problem
User Startcom has consideral amount of Edits to StartCom related articles (see users contributions for detail). At what point is is this acceptable? --Hu12 00:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
