- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) - A number of editors, most notably Vijayante (talk • contribs) and TimidGuy (talk • contribs), are actively involved in the Maharishi's TM movement, advocates for it, and are aggressively challenging all critical information. Vijayante has been blocked twice for 3RR for deleting critical material without discussion, and TimidGuy now claims that the controversy over the Maharishi's relationship to his guru and his teachings is "an invented controversy", trying to "find a reason to deligitimize the Maharishi", and that Maharishi and his teaching is perceived by most people as "secular and scientific" (not religious), that the critical book is not "neutral" and not "scholarly", and even though two different versions have been published by different publishers, and has been independently reviewed, that the book can't be cited because it is "self published". All this over a simple proposal that the article say: "There reportedly has been some controversy over alleged differences between the teachings and practices of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and his Guru Dev, Brahmananda Saraswati, and his guru's and lineage's support for Maharishi's subsequent teaching role [1], an issue complicated by an unresolved dispute among multiple lineages all claiming to be Brahmanananda Saraswati's successor 21, [22]. The Maharishi reportedly views himself as the only the "bulb through which the spiritual electrical current from Gurudev shines in radiating light on all".
Below are some examples of the apparently COI based explanations from TimidGuy for why there is no noteworthy controversy, the Maharishi isn't seen as a guru, TM has no religious elements, sources must be academic and neutral, etc:
- I don't understand how this is relevant to the article. What's the point of saying what Maharishi isn't (or rather what people think he isn't)? Shouldn't the article focus on who he is and what he's done? Are you saying that because Guru Dev taught three methods, so should Maharishi? IF it could be documented that Maharishi's teachings are inconsistent with Guru Dev's, what point would that be making about Maharishi and why is it relevant to the article? To my mind, it's enough that Maharishi was with Guru Dev for a number of years and imbibed a deep understanding of the Vedic tradition. And he's now introducing facets of Vedic knowledge to a wider audience.
- I've been at Maharishi University of Management for decades, and I've never had the sense that Maharishi's teachings are explicitly Guru Dev's teachings. It goes deeper than that. It's more on the level of Being. Guru Dev was the embodiment of that Being. Maharishi appreciated that essence. He is re-enlivening facets of the Vedic tradition in that context. The focus is on transcending, on experience of transcendence, and on verifying those experiences -- through knowledge about what's happening and through scientific research. It's the essence of simplicity. We don't get bogged down in worrying about this or that tradition or lineage of path or method. We appreciate that there are many different paths, probably equally valid. Maharishi has given us a simple technique that uses the natural tendency of the mind. It has the virtue of being effortless. And he's complemented that by introducing other aspects of the Vedic tradition, such as Ayurveda, Gandharva Veda, and Sthapatya Veda. But it's all for the same simple purpose of transcending and experiencing pure consciousness. I think you'd need to demonstrate that the Mason biography was published by a reputable publisher. It seems like a collection of hearsay. No one that I know thinks of Charlie Lutes as an authority on the Vedic tradition or on Guru Dev.
- One thing that does characterize Maharishi is that he’s put his meditation on the objective platform of science. Disciples can argue all they want about whose guru is the best or most legitimate, but the science shows that Transcendental Meditation, whatever its origin, has very specific effects. And that long-term practice leads to a state of subjective experience and neurophysiological markers that are very different from the norm.
- Ironically, I've been feeling that you're the one who's improperly framing things (which is why I referenced your POV). You keep casting Maharishi into a guru role and focusing on lineages, etc. But Maharishi is simply a person who was a disciple of Guru Dev and who subsequently began teaching a form of meditation that he said would have many immediate practical benefits, as well as a long-term cumulative effect. And research and the experience of people who take up the practive have verified his claims. He has subsequently sought to revive various facets of the Vedic literature and, in general, to re-enliven the Vedic tradition. He didn't represent himself as a guru, didn't ask people to be his followers, didn't claim any authority based on lineages, etc. In a sense, Guru Dev was his inspiration. The only people who worry about this are the people with other gurus. They have to find a reason to delegitimize Maharishi. This is an invented controversy by a tiny group of people. It's not notable and doesn't belong in the article. And Mason's book is self-publshed and not scholarly.
- I just can't accept Mason. He's not a trained scholar, his book isn't scholarly. If you check this page {http://evolutionpublishinguk.com/} you'll see that the publisher has published one book -- Mason's. That's what tells you it's self-published. I know many people who have self-published books. It's standard practice to create a publisher. Self-published books can be listed on Amazon. They can even find a distributor. One reason that this is important is that scholars generally try to be objective. Mason isn't neutral -- he's opposed to TM. You can check his web site and find a link to the most critical site that opposes TM. A historian and biographer doesn't usually approach his subject with an agenda. If this is such a major controversy among those who revere the Vedic tradition, then why can't you cite books from university presses? Or articles in scholarly journals? Note that WP:ATT suggests that the standard be books published by university presses. I think the next step would be to an example of a specific thing that Maharishi has said or taught and then produce a scholarly source that says that that's wrong. (Web sites won't cut it. Mason won't cut it.) Then we can discuss it.
- Of course I'm operating from my own assumptions. But I believe I'm also characterizing the way Maharishi has presented his teaching and the way that he's perceived by most people. He's presented it as secular and scientific, and most people accept it that way. Most of the media reports present it that way. It's exclusively presented that way in the scientific literature. If there is a body of scholarship that disputes Maharishi's approach, I'm unfamiliar with it. If there is, then it can be referenced in the article. But for the most part, I believe the article should represent the way that Maharishi is viewed by most people. If you and some others believe he's violated the integrity of the Santana Dharma tradition, it's your point of view. You'll need to support it, and you'll need to show that it's notable. So far you've only referenced a book by a non-scholar and various web sites. On the other hand, there's a body of 700 scientific studies spanning nearly 40 years. Why should one book and a few partisan web sites define Maharishi and not the 700 studies on his form of meditation and the numerous books that have presented his approach, such as Dr. Schneider's recent book on Maharishi's approach to health?
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- I finally gave up and responded: The issue of whether MMY is a seen as religious and/or spiritual leader, or just a scientific figure, does NOT have to be proven to be cited in Wikipedia, we are simply to present the information as it is. All that has to be shown to illuminate the controvery is that the issue is reasonably controversial, which there is prima facia evidence it is. And there is no proof provided that someone who used to be widely known as the Beatle's guru is nowadays seen by most as a scientific figure! I do NOT need an academic study or a proven neutral source, as TimidGuy claims, merely an attributable, published source for that assertion. Nor are public figures permitted to simply self-define themselves without futher consideration. Since TimidGuy has chosen to consistently adopt a position rigidly denying this controversy is even relevant despite good faith compromises, reams of evidence, other Wikipedia articles, and even court cases to the contrary, in obvious syncronicity with his own personal beliefs and the position taken by his organization, I doubt any sources would satisfy him, I have done what I can and I will pursue available options in due time. If it gets to Arbcom, I seriously doubt they will adopt the position TimidGuy has taken that there is no significant evidence supporting a controversy over the religious elements in MMY's life and teaching, that MMY is most widely seen as scientist, and will take into consideration his involvement in said organization. Sorry it has to come to this, TimidGuy, but when faced with rigid, unsound positions after repeated attempts to collaborate, NPOV remains not negotiable, and I'll take my case elsewhere. --Dseer 05:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Maharishi_Mahesh_Yogi"
Please advise me on how to deal with apparent COI editing when the majority of current editors are associated with TM and involvement affects their editing of critical information. --Dseer 06:31, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- I thought we were having a useful discussion. Sorry to see your frustration. From my perspective, I'm not rigidly denying there's a controversy. I'm asking for evidence for it. So far all that's been cited is what is apparently a self-published book by someone whose credentials as an expert on the Vedic tradition aren't evident [4] and various web sites. If this is a notable controversy, then there are likely reputable sources, such as the Journal of Vedic Studies, that have discussed it. If some facet of Maharishi's teaching has been criticized by a noted expert in the Vedic tradition, then that could be referenced in the article. And it should be weighted relative to the overall view of him presented in the body of scholarly and popular literature. TimidGuy 11:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
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- I consider the following established:
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- That you are associated with the TM group and with the Maharishi University of Management is established.
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- That your position is that Maharishi and TM are secular and scientific and that that is how they are generally perceived.
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- That that position has not been adequately sourced, and is identical to the organization's legal and PR activities.
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- That your position on the secular issue has been ruled against by governments and courts, and has been severerly criticized by reputable scientists, not only as found in Wikipedia, but in the controversies outlined at [[5]], a more balanced site, where the Professor who is widely seen as sympathetic to NRMs was subject to a campaign to remove such information.
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- That you believe and assert that a tiny few are creating an "invented controversy" to find a "reason to deligitimize the Maharishi.
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- That your issues with Mason's book being used as a reference only to establish the elements of a controvery you consider "non-notable" are ostensibly based on unproven claims that both editions are "self published", incorrect statements about what Mason has said you have acknowledged, and stated concerns that Mason is allegedly anti-TM because his site includes a link to anti-TM activists among many others, and claims that sources must be neutral, and equivalent to books published by university presses.
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- Another procedural point: could you bear in mind the instructions at the top of this page?
- Please make your comments as concise as possible.
- Fellow editors and administrators are less likely to pay attention to long diatribes.
- Tearlach 17:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
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- Ok, I've editing it down to a concise outline. First time here, sorry.--Dseer 18:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
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- For the record, it's not obvious to me that Dseer is himself neutral. Look at his Contributions[6]. He's out rounding up editors who have opposed Transcendental Meditation and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in the past. That seems more like a battleground than neutral editing. I'm not sure what I've done to incite his frenzied opposition, other than to suggest that Mason's book doesn't meet the guidelines and that it would be good to find a reputable source for the specific controversy he's eager to add to the article on Maharish. I note that Dseer's arguments when opposing Maharishi echo those in an article he created recently on Ramana Maharishi [7] that's critical of the sort of meditation that Maharishi Mahesh Yogi teaches. (And if all this sounds a bit silly -- I agree. : ) )TimidGuy 01:45, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
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- I see besides TimidGuy (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log) being on the faculty of the Maharishi University of Management, and Viyayante (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log) being an enthusiastic practioner, that Sparaig (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log) is a long time TM practitioner, Littleolive oil (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log) is/was on faculty at the Maharishi University of Management, and Roseapple (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log) is another identified TM practitioner. The objection is not to them being editors or participating, but to the collective gatekeeping on blocking critical information where they all have a COI, which has been noted by other editors also. Being polite as others have noted doesn't alter the incremental COI pattern. There is nothing wrong with seeking other editors for balance when the majority of current editors are associated with the group and collectively support each other. Nor is there anything wrong with my adding missing information on meditation methods other than those taught by Maharishi, whose teaching differs from his own guru, whose teachings I also want to elaborate more on. For the record, I'm not associated with any anti-TM group, although I do think Maharishi's guru more to my liking, I simply find the COI overwhelming here and think it deserves attention when critical material is involved. --Dseer 02:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I'll repeat what I said earlier, that I am very happy to have User:TimidGuy as a contributor to the TM article as well as other related articles. As it said on the now-removed expert tag on the TM article: "This article or section is in need of attention from an expert on the subject." TimidGuy is definitely an expert and has made incredibly good contributions to the article - without any apparent bias. I see no signs that his close association with TM in any way compromises his ability to edit the article. I think he is an excellent editor and an asset to Wikipedia. TimidGuy is one of the most civil and cooperative editors I have encountered on Wikipedia - with an excellent eye for following NPOV, as well as following all other Wikipedia policies and guidelines. I find the accusations made above to be most distasteful and untrue. Dreadlocke ☥ 02:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- The above comes from one who has been active in opposing critics who raised COI issues and supportive of TM related positions, to wit: (1) Thanks much, Dreadlocke, for checking in on the TM article and for pointing me to the Guideline on Criticism.TimidGuy 22:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC); (2) Yes, I need to archive the TM Talk page. We sure have filled it with verbiage. I do appreciate your appearing on the Talk page and noting Sethie's personal attack.TimidGuy 02:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC); (3) Wow, thanks for the endorsement on my Talk page in response to Sethie's challenges on COI. I really appreciate your feedback. I may be posting an RfC today related to my dispute with Sethie on his disallowing a rebuttal in the cult section.TimidGuy 12:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC); (4) Thanks, Dreadlocke. Lately I'd been thinking I needed to find a forum to answer questions about verifiability, etc. Sethie seems to be making up rules sometimes. I really appreciate your feedback on the topic and for pointing me to those forums.TimidGuy 22:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC); (5) Really appreciate your help, Dreadlocke. I've now added an official warning tag to Sethie's Talk page.TimidGuy 12:57, 8 December 2006 (UTC); (6)Hey, thanks for the e-mail. And for the action you took. Great to have your perspective. And note the conciliatory message on my Talk page.TimidGuy 20:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC). Some editors expertise on the teachings of one's organization may help with information desired by proponents and in replies to criticisms, but a COI skews NPOV if supporters give excess weight to such "expert" opinion and personal "knowledge" in framing and presenting critical information based on their opinions regarding WP:NPOV and WP:ATT. Ref: Wikipedia on NPOV [[8]], and [[9]]. --Dseer 07:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
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- Actually, I haven't been all that active "in opposing critics who raised COI issues and supportive of TM related positions". I've only supported TimidGuy in these undeserved accusations of COI because I strongly believe he is an excellent editor who brings a lot of value to Wikipedia. If you notice, I've made no substantial edits to the TM articles, because I know nothing about TM. I support good editing and good editors, that is all that's involved in my participation here. Dseer's above accusations are false and unwarranted, basically a personal attack on me in an attempt to discredit my input in this case. That little ploy should not work, and should only serve to erode Dseer's positions and credibility. Dreadlocke ☥ 19:56, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
- One more thing, or two; most of what Dseer points out was me helping a new user, which is something we're supposed to do as experienced editors of Wikipedia. To try and turn that into something "bad" is ludicrious. TimidGuy was being personally attacked by Sethie. Sethie apologized for his behavior several times [10], [11][12], said the article is better off with TimidGuy involved, and rated him a better, more civil editor [13]. To try and find fault with my involvement there is quite simply ridiculous, as is this COI charge. I can provide more diffs if needed. Dreadlocke ☥ 20:27, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
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- I haven't got the time to waste responding at length to such apples and oranges comparisons and logic defending a Wikipedian you like and respect. I did not say and do not assert the article was better off without him, to the contrary. Actually, I think we will work this out, coming here is part of the process. But, based on what you say, how can you claim to have no knowledge of TM (you did positively edit on Chopra, a long time TM advocate) and yet assert there is no COI effect if you don't know the subject, and in particular regarding the attributability of Mason? Civility and likeability aside, what makes you given your stated position of limited subject knowledge the best judge of whether any of the following in some way related to COI was occurring: A common way of introducing bias is by one-sided selection of information. Information can be cited that supports one view while some important information that opposes it is omitted or even deleted. In this manner, the full range of views on a subject can be unfairly presented or concealed...Some examples of how editors may unwittingly or deliberately present a subject in an unfair way: Biased or selective representation of sources, eg: Explaining why evidence supports one view, but omitting such explanation in support of alternative views. Making one opinion look superior by omitting strong and citable points against it, comparing it instead with low quality arguments for other POVs (strawman tactics). Not allowing one view to "speak for itself", or refactoring its "world-view" into the words of its detractors. Editing as if one given opinion is "right" and therefore other opinions have little substance: Entirely omitting significant citable information in support of a minority view, with the argument that it is claimed to be not credible. Ignoring or deleting significant views, research or information from notable sources that would usually be considered credible and verifiable in Wikipedia terms (this could be done on spurious grounds). Concealing relevant information about sources or sources' credentials that is needed to fairly judge their value. Thus, verifiability, proper citation and neutral phrasing are necessary but not sufficient to ensure NPOV. It is important that the various views and the subject as a whole are presented in a balanced manner and that each is summarized as if by its proponents to their best ability. Yes, Sethie was tough on many, including me, but you have not shown those apologies are directly related to all the comments I cited or that Sethie's percieved attacks equated to being wrong factually. You are mistaken in emphasing demonstrated civility as equating to factual credibility, or that civility trumps NPOV and ATT, it does not. In fact, Wikipedia states: "Some Wikipedians, in the name of neutrality, try to avoid making any statements that other people find offensive or objectionable, even if objectively true. This is not the intent of striving for neutrality. Many groups would prefer that certain facts be stated euphemistically, or only in their own terminology, or suppressed outright; such desires need not be deferred to." --Dseer 03:15, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Comment. While the COI issue above still awaits a focused study, I'd like to point out that Paul Mason's critical book is NOT obviously self-published, so it shouldn't be rejected on those grounds alone. American Amazon shows the 1994 edition of The Maharishi as being published by Element Books, and if you look at this listing you'll see several dozen books coming from that publisher. The closest thing to a publisher's web site is this. It would be surprising to see the possible religious element of the Maharishi's teaching being flatly denied as a 'fringe' view. Paul Mason's web site lists some reviews of the 2005 edition of his book in major British newspapers, and those reviews could be followed up if necessary.
If User:Dseer feels that the current Maharishi article represents an unbalanced view, I invite him to create a 'corrective' paragraph that might restore neutrality to the article, and have us critique it here. EdJohnston 17:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks, Ed. This is the sort of evidence that I invited Dseer to provide, especially since the 2005 edition appears to be self pubished. Would we then limit the citations to the 1994 edition? What about the issue of whether Mason can be considered to be an expert on the Vedic tradition and Guru Dev? Does this book make him an expert, in your opinion? Here's his bio: [14] Dseer did, in fact, write a paragraph but was reluctant to answer the questions I asked about it. [15] TimidGuy 19:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The fact that the 2005 edition was widely reviewed by British newspapers seems to take away any stigma due to self-publication. The only suggestion it might be self-published comes from the fact it is the only book issued so far by a new publisher. Any claims made in this book should be evaluated by the usual Wikipedia standards, and we assume that Mason cites other works that could also be checked. The bio of Mason that you point to does not lead me to disbelieve anything he might say. It's not even clear who a Vedic expert might be.
I am baffled both by the original complaint by Dseer and by the responses. Not denying there could be a real COI here, but I don't understand the remedy that is being sought, or what the consequences might be for the article. If there were a well-defined piece of legitimate criticism of the Maharishi that is being kept out of the article, we could focus on that. Whether he's religious or not seems so vague as to be an unanswerable question. And are we really going to arbitrate who is a valid successor of a particular guru? EdJohnston 20:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks so much, Ed. It's great having the perspective of a neutral third party. TimidGuy 01:46, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
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- Ed, understand for the record that in just another example of reframing my position, TG was specifically told more than once there were two editions, two separate independent publishers, independent reviews, etc., and given links to prove it, which he summarily dismissed even after another editor pointed out where he was wrong, despite how obvious it is as you point out, and despite attempts at prior discussion and compromise by rigidly applying a personal view about what self-published means at variance with Wikipedia. I came here only after it became he was habitually unwilling to acknowledge what COI and NPOV require. I don't want to take up unnecessary space here but I can prove at great length what I am saying with examples at some other place like my talk page if necessary. I apologize for having to take more space to define the concern. He is simply more cautious above than normal because it became more apparent his case that Mason is not attributable doesn't hold water. There is ample reason to show that his reason for opposition, which is clear from his body of statements about Mason, is that the book contains criticism (as well as praise) of Maharishi, and presents a documented view of Maharshi at variance with the official biographical versions produced by the group and demonstrates chronic revisionism by the group.
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- Ed, the complaint is very simple. TimidGuy practices, advocates, and is employed at and paid by the Maharishi's organization, and he is not alone in that. I can produce ample, independent statements made before I even raised any issues that a number of editors have expressed similar concerns about the COI in the consistently aggressive tactics taken by the TM associated editors here against critical links and sources that are already found on similar articles in Wikipedia, while critics are not similarly attacking every positive, Maharshi related link, they just want the criticism acknowledged. Editors give up in frustration because as one said you have to take lots of flak. That isn't conductive to good editing. You will note the results that unlike almost every similar article you will find about controversial figures, there is no section for either criticism or controversy! Instead of doing what one Admin said to do in regard to Vijayante but which is applicable to the TM group in general, which was stop trying to delete valid sources instead of simply providing rebuttals, we have a group of TM advocates agreeing with each other and asserting for example that we should not present anything other than Maharshi's claims about himself without an excessively high standard, and I quote: "This is who he says he is and this is who he is unless I find some really good material to support otherwise." That is not what editors with apparent COIs are supposed to do, particulary when COI has been seriously alleged already by several editors. Outside of egregious insertions, which I myself would oppose, they should seek the counsel of more neutral editors when it comes to critical material they personally don't want, as it can be seen from statements that the concern is about statements from those trying to "to de-legitimize the Maharishi", a mission of protecting a leader from criticism which has nothing to do with NPOV, ATT, or BLP standards. For example, following COI provisions, instead of demanding I prove Mason is an authoritative, scholarly level and neutral source first (he actually made those demands), having met the basic standard for an attributable source, he should simply allow Mason to be referenced as a source for a short outline of notable claims that run contrary to the organization's current message, which include actual, sourced transcriptions of older works and statements to back these claims up, and then make his point about Mason in rebuttal. This was essentially all I proposed, but it went nowhere. As regards the religious issue, as I said, the intent was never to resolve this issue, but the argument that the Maharishi is secular rather than religious is a well known legal and social controversy that has been the subject of court cases, government rulings, broady sourced, and deserves reasonable mention in the bio. It is worth mentioning that there is a documented controversy around how a guru's mere secretary became as one Indian TM site puts it, "His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi" (the secular claim alleged to being more for western consumption due to churhch/state issues) and that his teaching has changed. I provided numerous links to show it likely that Maharishi is considered religious/spiritual rather than secular/scientfic, but that was dismissed. As for TG's claim that the Maharshi is seen as a scientist, that is obviously a very controversial and minority opinion among scientists, particularly when someone claims that they can teach yogis to fly and change the course of world history!
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- Ed, you asked earlier above for a smoking gun, and I submit it is found in the results, incrementally but consistently achieved, that there is only superficial controversy, and way too little criticism or skepticism about Maharshi's claims about himself and the miraculous results and powers he claims, and the history of comments about criticism and reasons given why that is appropriate. I can provide as much detail as you like to support this including more neutral sites which give more fair weight to all sides of the controveries for comparison regarding NPOV, but it would take a lot of space we don't have here, if you or anyone wants me to outline it somewhere else I will.
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- My proposed remedy is simple, and fair. I am not proposing that the TM advocate editors have not done good or that they be restricted from editing, except when it comes to neutral or critical material where a COI would apply. When more neutral observers find I have met the burden of proving the TM editors having consistently demonstrated difficulty in complying with the constraints advocated by WP:COI, and have, regardless of motive, created the situation of information suppression described here [[16]], the editors in question should be strongly cautioned about following COI, including seeking input from and deferring to neutral editors with no particular interest in the subject, instead of making it so hard by holding to a rigid line on criticism by themselves. I'd also request a strong neutral Administrator be available to monitor the site. --Dseer 05:36, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
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- Regarding your request for the proposed outline for a statement, the one which first provoked such a negative response from the TM group, my original proposal exactly as I wrote it was: Controversy: There has been some controversy over alleged differences between the teachings and practices of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and his Guru Dev, Brahmananda Saraswati, and over the extent his guru authorized Maharishi's teaching role. One alleged difference is that while Guru Dev reportedly refused to accept donations, there is a cost for learning Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's methods, although ability to pay is considered. Another is that while Guru Dev reportedly those receiving mantras from him to have an ishtadevata (a personal form of God), Maharishi Mahesh Yogi only requires a short puja ceremony celebrated in front of a portrait of Guru Dev. Another is that while Guru Dev reportedly said "don't wish for the siddhis", Maharishi Mahesh Yogi encourages development of certain siddhis. [Ref: Mason]. The Maharishi began to teach on his own soon after the death of his Guru Dev, Brahmananda Saraswati, while the dispute among multiple lineages claiming to be his successor arose and remains unresolved Ref: [[17]] [18]. The lineage designated in a purported will has endorsed the Maharishi's role and teaching, but reportedly not all the claimants do so. The Maharishi reportedly acknowleged that his guru did not discuss or plan for his future teaching role, that it just "blossomed", but stated that "he must have known", and reportedly views himself as the only the "bulb through which the spiritual electrical current from Gurudev shines in radiating light on all". (Ref: Mason, cited Maharishi Quote). The detailed quotations supporting all this were provided on the talk page. After receiving so much flak about Mason, I tried to get a compromise to start with, but it was also rejected on the same grounds (Mason not acceptable, issue not relevant). In response to my proposal, instead, to get around the statements in Wikipedia that Maharishi considered himself a disciple of Guru Dev, TimidGuy arbitrarily edited the article to say instead that Maharishi was "inspired" by his guru, attempting to end run around the religious controversy, since evidence Maharishi has changed his original teaching about his devotional relationship is sourced and relevant to the issue of whether he is a religious or secular figure. This later proposal for alternative consideration and wordsmithing, or some variation between the two versions, by other neutral editors is:
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- There reportedly has been some controversy over alleged differences between the teachings and practices of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and his Guru Dev, Brahmananda Saraswati, and his guru's and lineage's support for Maharishi's subsequent teaching role REF: (Mason}, an issue complicated by an unresolved dispute among multiple lineages all claiming to be Brahmanananda Saraswati's successor (REF (as above]. The Maharishi reportedly views himself as the only the "bulb through which the spiritual electrical current from Gurudev shines in radiating light on all" REF: (Mason's sourced quote of Maharishi). --Dseer 05:36, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
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- Dseer says: "TG was specifically told more than once there were two editions, two separate independent publishers, independent reviews, etc., and given links to prove it, which he summarily dismissed even after another editor pointed out where he was wrong. . . ." Please show the diffs where you gave a link to the 1994 publisher and where another editor pointed out that I was wrong. I can't find that. Dseer says, "As for TG's claim that the Maharshi is seen as a scientist . . ." Please show the diff.
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- I don't see a problem with my trying to determine whether this is an acceptable source. Isn't that what we're supposed to do on the Talk page? Dseer twists everything into COI. I'm not able to get the 2005 edition in the U.S. so I can't verify anything. It's apparently self-published, and doeesn't have a distributor and is only available from the web site. I get a credit card error when trying to order. Dseer is careless about sources. He conflated two different books by Saltzman, and when I bought Saltman's book that wasn't the self-published version, it didn't contain the material that Dseer said it did. Further, in the paragraph he wanted to add, he gave a sentence of information and then referenced Mason's book but didn't give a page number. When I asked for that he complained about conflict of interest. I'm not confident that he's even seen the book. Aren't these appropriate things to try to pin down? Maybe Mason's book is authoritative. I'd like to see it. If we're talking about the 1994 edition, I can get that on Amazon for $40. Hate to spend that much, but will do so if that's the one we're going to reference. Am trying to get 2005 edition via interlibrary loan -- depends on whether any U.S. libraries have it. My impression is that the book isn't scholarly, but maybe that's not fair.
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- Please keep in mind that Dseer also has a problem with conflict of interest. He appears to be a follower of Ramana Maharishi, and it's very important to him to discredit Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and the meditation technique that he teaches. I feel like I've raised valid questions on the Talk page regarding the sentences that Dseer wants to add, and he's refused to answer them. He simply complains about conflict of interest and squelches discussion. He says we should defer to neutral editors; I hope he doesn't mean himself. It's very rare that a neutral editor appears.
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- Dseer makes lots of generalizations and some pretty strong allegations. I'd like to see some diffs. From my perspective, people with various agendas try to commandeer the articles, and I can show you plenty of diffs where they've inserted errors, falsehoods, and half truths. I have tried to fix those. I'd like Dseer to show where I've removed something from an article that wasn't warranted, that was purely based on POV, and that was in violation of the guidelines. He says I sometimes try to keep material from being inserted. That's true. Editors sometimes try to insert poorly sourced material, such as the libelous Denaro affidavit, and I vigorously fought to get consensus on deleting that. I was supported in an RfC. In the end, the source, The Skeptic's Dictionary, must have agreed it was libelous, because Carroll removed it from his web site.
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- From my perspective, this is simply a discussion about something that Dseer wants to add to the article. I have the same questions about the specific material that Ed raised, and I feel it bears discussion. I don't understand why Dseer got all excited and raised all these COI issues. Frankly, I'd like to bring this issue of COI to a head. I'd like to either be banned or be allowed to continue without these constant allegations. Yes, I have a conflict of interest, but the issue is whether I've made problematic edits to articles on that basis. I don't think I have.
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- Of course, it's embarrassing to have this dispute played out so publicly and at such length. My apologies to everyone. TimidGuy 11:37, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- User:Dseer makes a point that there is no Criticism section in this article. That seems like something we could work on. While we're thinking how to do that, can I ask if anyone following this debate has access to a physical copy of Paul Mason's book, in either edition? I assume that Dseer has been able to get one. Is he the only one who can look up passages and supply page references? EdJohnston 16:48, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
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- I've just ordered the 1994 edition, since the 2005 isn't available on Amazon or Half.com. TimidGuy 19:26, 31 March 2007 (UTC) By the way, a check of the OCLC database shows that no library in the U.S. has the 2005 edition, so I can't get it through interlibrary loan. TimidGuy 20:28, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
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- As the editor of the rewrite of the Tm and religion article I thought I'd better make a statement or two. Like TimidGuy , I would like to deal with the COI interest allegations, if this is cause for banning then that's fine.I tried to create a balanced article that made connections to TM and religion.The article was initially very anti-Tm and I attempted to introduce balance. If this is cause for reprimand or banning then so be it I really can't do any more.I considered Cardinal Sin's pastoral statement to be a strong comment on TM and Christianity from a highly authoritative clergy in a major Christian religion. I also included strong statements from several clergy who support TM. I am beyond explaining anymore. I feel that Dseer threatens with NPOV and COI and turns any attempt to explain into a COI issue, and I find this exhausting. I want to mention that the religion article is on a discussion page for input from editors, and is not final. I have received input from TG that I will attempt to incorporate. Although Dseer clearly does not like the article I don't know what he wants . Including Paul Mason here was not an option in my mind because as I attempted to explain earlier , one of the problems with this article was the murky reasoning and lack of delineation between religion and spirituality. Mention of God is not necessarily religion, and Mason does not comment on religion in the statements in the present material. Distinctions between religion and spirituality are clear in the literature I have been researching. I tried in this article to only reference religion to make the connections very clear, very concrete.I'm afraid that Dseer has an ax to grind that blinds him to the possibility that I, although as I clearly stated on my user page have a connection to TM, might also be able to present a relatively neutral article . I am also a Catholic and am aware of the weight a pastoral statement carries. Is that also a COI. I don't enjoy having what I say in good faith twisted around to suit and argument or particular view point. If an editor doesn't like something fix it but do it with balance. Efforts to discredit TM, should be introduced with material to support it, so the balance is continually and equally achieved - a constant state of equilibrium. At least in my limited time here at Wikipedia that has been my understanding.(63.162.81.220 22:18, 31 March 2007 (UTC)) (olive 22:24, 31 March 2007 (UTC))
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- Just to clarify, when Olive says "article" she means the religion "section" of the TM article. Good points, Olive. It is indeed problematic that Dseer's COI campaign seems to disallow good faith participation in discussion of the points you raised. TimidGuy 10:10, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
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- Move to Talk page?. This issue has been open for a long time, and it's made some progress, but it needs a lot more focus. How would people feel about moving this discussion to Talk:Maharishi Mahesh Yogi? I would 'box up' the above comments to save space but keep the COI issue open until some progress is made on the Talk page. If talks break down, the COI could be resumed. Please respond if you have an opinion. EdJohnston 15:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
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- Sounds good. TimidGuy 15:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
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- So the focus on the Talk:Maharishi Mahesh Yogi page will be only on the article and the focus here will be only on conflict of interest? I think that's a good idea. Roseapple 17:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
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- I've other priorities right now and may not be active right away but I intend to be more active again soon. I agree with Ed's suggestions, with a neutral observer familiar with COI issues involved, moving the discussion to the talk pages of the respective Maharishi/TM related articles, provided the COI issue remains in abeyance, is agreeable.
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- For the record, in the interim, my issues are simple. My work on the Ramana Maharshi article paraphrasing other sources is simply clarifying known inaccuracies and inconsistencies. The Maharishi's guru, Guru Dev (Shankaracharya Swami Brahmanand Saraswati), and Sri Ramana Maharshi were both highly respected contemporaries widely considered liberated in India, who died before the Maharishi started teaching, both humble and without significant possessions, claims of hypocrisy or scandals, who did not charge for or personally accept donations for their teachings and initiations, and whose actual teachings in practice were related, not limited to one approach, and aligned with the Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism) traditions. I've already said that where those like the Maharishi, who despite claims of secularism here in the West, while in his native land is referred to by his own organization as "His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi", "A Living Saint", etc., has deviated significantly from those traditions while claiming them as sources, recognizable by a scholar of the Dharma and sourced by others, I too am critically skeptical. I don't want any editors banned, and I'm not just focused on Mason or bashing the Maharishi. I just want an NPOV from the eyes of uninvolved, neutral readers, to include reasonable mention of controversy and criticism that does not currently exist, and a clear understanding of the obligations editors with apparent COIs have regarding NPOV, which affects all related articles.
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- One more illustrative example here of how the COI issue is not trivial and affects the article. Employees and associates of TM editing here offer many public, written assumptions and insinuations in these discussions that are derogatory and even libelous regarding Mr. Mason and allegations his is a self-published and hearsay based book, indistinguishable from the positions taken by organized TM. Yet, though Mr. Mason is not some dead or inaccessible figure, not one of the TM associated editors who assert a COI has no influence on their edits has taken the simple step of contracting Mr. Mason, whose email, premanandpaul at yahoo dot co dot uk, is widely listed and who responds promptly, regarding any of these concerns! More neutral editors would be inclined to do so, while editors involved in TM are not, apparently prefering speculation, personal "knowledge" coming from the organization, and original research instead. As a result, I contacted Mr. Mason via email, because we do not want to skew or misinterpret what Mason has said and done, both about his attributability, and statements in the article sourced to him, once it is established that Mason is an attributable source. I provided the entire text of both proposed statements, to make sure he was not in disagreement, along with what was said about him personally. These are the relevant portions of what he said in reply:
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- Mason: Thanks for contacting me. I should state that far from being self-published, the original version published by Element was commissioned by them, and I undertook the task having secured a good contract. Subsequently, Element Books went out of business (allegedly because they took to publishing too many titles on Reiki). The new paperback edition is published by Evolution who have a website http://www.maharishibiography.com/ from which copies of the new edition can be purchased.
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- Mason: I have written the biography of Maharishi, and I am translating Guru Dev's teachings. If anyone has any problems with material I produce they are doing themselves an injustice, as I tend to source my material rather carefully. So, I cannot see that a controversy could emerge about the accuracy of the information contained in any of my writings on Maharishi or Guru Dev, as I seldom use hearsay and state if I do. I seldom look at the Wikipedia profiles on Maharishi, Transcendental Meditation or Shankaracharya Swami Brahmanand Saraswati and it does not surprise me to hear they are inaccurate.
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- Mason: I should address the issues of motivations and qualifications. I have practiced transcendental meditation for over three decades and as regards qualification to write on this subject, I have found the material, I have presented the material, it is materially correct, so no problem. Bear in mind the movement tried to suppress the book, Element and myself had a lot of pressure from legal department in Chicago and 'representatives' in the UK. If there was any material problem with the book, it would not have been published. As it was the movement offered to present my publishers with their own version if they would withdraw my book! Now, if there was ANY reason they could have found, any material inaccuracy or libel or whatever, that book would not have been out. It is ironic, as initially I envisaged the book as a showcase for Maharishi's thinking, and actually avoided taking a bias.
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- Mason: The first edition hardback is good to quote out of, new edition paperback is good to quote from too. The thing is that there over 380 footnotes giving chapter and verse for quotations. Of the quotations that I have lifted directly from audio and video tape, the quotes are quite correct. Wanting, I could even get the relevant passages copied, if necessary. Clearly, the movement understood this much, that the book was well researched and fairly unassailable.--Dseer 20:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
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- Thanks, Dseer. It's still not clear why you made this into a COI issue. You initially referenced a book published in 2005 that was apparently self-published (and all the evidence still points to its being such). I questioned that as a source. I had reason to doubt the book's scholarly nature, based on informaton that you presented from it in discussions. You then noted that there was a 1994 edition. I asked that you show that it was published by a reputable publisher after I wasn't able to find any information on Element Books. Instead, you came here. So now that we've been through thousands of words of unsupported COI accusations, you've finally answered my question. For which I thank you. You didn't answer Ed's question regarding whether you actually have a copy of the book, and if so, which edition. If there's a prominent controversy regarding Maharishi, I don't have problem referencing it. We can discuss that on the appropriate Talk page. (And by the way, I'd never heard of this book until seeing it referenced in Wikipedia. And none of the several citations actually gives a page number or proper bibliographic citation, which has been sort of weird and which has added to the confusion.) TimidGuy 10:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
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- In any case, I really really appreciate your tendency to discuss debatable edits to the article first rather than just inserting material and enforcing the addition via edit warring, as other editors have been inclined to do. For the record -- I admire you for that and am grateful. TimidGuy 14:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Another response: TimidGuy has a clear and immediate conflict of interest and for this reason would be well advised to restrict participation to talk pages for all transcendental mediatation-related articles. The particular reference in question appears to be published legitimately and appropriate as a reference source. I suggest an article content request for comment to settle the particular debate. I hope that resolves the problems, but in case it doesn't the likely alternatives are this: a user conduct request for comment and an eventual arbitration case, which would likely end in article paroles on TM topics. Another experimental option is community enforceable mediation. Best wishes, DurovaCharge! 02:13, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks, Durova. Not sure why you're making this point. The discussion has indeed established that the 1994 edition wasn't self-published and is available -- the debate about that has been settled. I'm not disputing that -- and am looking forward to receiving the book. Regarding COI, no one has shown that my editing has been disruptive, and everyone has praised my work. Why should I be restricted? In an ideal situation, I'd make suggestions and a neutral editor would implement them. But no neutral editor has ever appeared in these articles. They are edited by people who are knowledgeable about Transcendental Meditation and the research and by people who are ideological opponents of Transcendental Meditation and Maharishi. TimidGuy 11:51, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
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- As mentioned, time is scarce right now, so I will make this brief. Agreed, I hope that means we can continue to make progress. I simply cut to the chase, RVing is a waste of all of our time, we need to use the dispute resolution process as necessary, and progress is being made. I have a basic outline of the key, widely identified controversies surrounding MMY, which won't take that much space to flesh out since the primary purpose will be to illuminate the sources to readers, not rehash them. The primary reason I came here is because discussions broke down over whether a group of TMers a priori assessments and assumptions of what is notable and then attributable regarding criticism still needs neutral evaluation even if most critics have abandoned the field for now, and which does not trump Wikepedia guidance as it is. Nor does mere civility trump NPOV or ATT or prove no COI exists. We need to include the missing critical perspective and help build a more balanced article, and as long as I provide attributable sources, which I will be working on, they should be accepted with the same latitude as given what the TMers provide. This is not just my or some critic's responsibility, as I quoted, "writing for the enemy" applies, it is in fact the TMers responsibility too to help craft the best possible critical/controversial statements for NPOV, not effectively suppress them in the ways I have quoted, even in good faith.
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- IMO, given those responsibilities, your continued assumptions about Mason being self published, etc., should have been addressed to Mason for clarification, not made a matter of public inuendo and hostile speculation about him on Wikipedia, since he too is a living person. A simple search shows that Mason has done a lot of research and is cited by a number of others than himself, and in other articles, particularly for his work on compiling and translating Guru Dev's writings and documenting MMY's earlier sayings, and has the sources for his quotations from MMY, including a rare, complete copy of Beacon Light of the Himalayas linked, the first book on MMY's teachings before he became famous, and other material gathered from years of TM practice. Given that, if you would put aside your assumptions and write him regarding your defamatory assertions about him, and read what he has written, you would realize that Mason has extensive documentation for what he says, even if he isn't a Professor, which is not required anyway. Given your latest claim about the 2005 book, Mason has responded to your "self-published" claims regarding the new edition and the new publisher as follows, which I hope settles the matter once and for all for any neutral parties reading this:
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- "Do the hardback and the paperback differ? Yes, the paperback contains material unavailable at the time of the publication of the English hardback. There are also German and Portuguese editions but these follow the English language hardback. With the advent of the internet age my current publisher decided to make it available solely by access to the web. Perhaps there will be a change in this policy at some time, I don't know." --Dseer 03:15, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
- Hi, Dseer. Sounds like you're taking a good approach. I'm glad you're finding attributable sources, presumably in accord with the BLP guideline. TimidGuy 15:07, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Durova posted: "TimidGuy has a clear and immediate conflict of interest and for this reason would be well advised to restrict participation to talk pages for all transcendental meditation-related articles."
Given that this is the Conflict of interest noticeboard, a response like "Not sure why you're making this point" is not straightforward and intelligent. This section is about editors, you for example, and in fact you in particular, with, yes, clear and immediate conflict of interest issues which it would behoove you to take seriously. It is not about Mason's (or anyone else's) book.
Wikipedia does not need another ream of paragraphs out of you, it needs you editing neutrally or not at all. No more long diatribes, no more changing the subject, no more disingenuity and smokescreens, capisce?
This section alone is already over 56 kilobytes. Enough, already. — Athænara ✉ 05:08, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
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