Talk:Continuous and progressive aspects

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[edit] Continuous vs. Progressive

This article speaks as though continuous and progressive aspects are the same. However, there is a distinction between the two. One language that makes this distinction in Cantonese. Take the following example... suppose you ask your friend to help you, but he's in the middle of doing something, he can respond two ways:

1. 我(I) 做(do) 緊(PROG) 嘢(thing) 。(.) = I'm doing something. [progressive]
2. 我(I) 做(do) 住(CONT) 嘢(thing) 。(.) = I'm doing something. [continuous]

Although both responses translate to the same English sentence, there is a difference in meaning. The first response indicates that the action is in progress, and that your friend cannot stop what he's doing to help you. The second response merely indicates the state of the action that is continuing, but does not imply that your friend cannot stop to help you.

This is the difference between progressive and continuous aspects. The progressive aspect is a dynamic description indicating the ongoing action of the verb while the continuous aspect is a static description of the state of the action. Most languages don't distinguish between continuous and progressive and thus treat them the same, however, there are languages, like Cantonese, that do. I propose we split this article into both continuous and progressive aspects. What do people think? —Umofomia 06:20, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

We should definitely add that information to this article — and edit this article to remove any implication that the continuous and the progressive are the same in all languages — but I don't think there should be two separate articles that give the exact same information for several languages and then differ in their discussion of Cantonese. (Or do you have something else in mind?) Ruakh 12:45, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, we'll keep them together. I'll add this information to the article when I get all the source information compiled together (this weekend most likely). Would you mind if I move the article to Progressive aspect and then state that continuous aspect is a subset of it (at least according to one source, a sentence in the progressive aspect can convey continuous aspect as well)? If we are to do the move though, we'll most likely need to find an admin to do so in order to maintain the page history. —Umofomia 09:12, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I look forward to your additions. :-)

Re: moving to Progressive aspect: I don't know enough about this to have an opinion one way or the other. If you think that's the more appropriate title, then by all means, go for it. (You don't even need an admin to do the move; the software will let you do it yourself, since Progressive aspect has no history before it became a redirect to Continuous aspect. And there's no Talk:Progressive aspect, so there's nothing to worry about there.)

Ruakh 12:50, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Re: moving to Progressive aspect, don't. Some consider progressive a subtype of continous, some consider both a subtype of durative and one a subtype of the other, some consider both a subtype of durative and the two of them not being subtypes of eachother. Better to keep them separate and link between them. -- Kaleissin 15:33, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... I did do a search on the web, and I have indeed found articles that give the conflicting subtype hierarchies (unfortunately none of them really explain the reasoning for putting one as the subtype of the other). Are you suggesting that we split continuous and progressive into separate articles? If not, then how do you propose we solve this? Here are the issues I see with either decision:

Split:

• Many examples in languages can indicate both continuous or progressive aspects. We would then be introducing redundant material in both articles.

Keep together:

• There is conflicting information about which aspect is a subtype of the other. To maintain NPOV, we don't want to favor one aspect over another in the title. In this case, should we perhaps name the article "Continuous and progressive aspects"?

Currently I am leaning towards keeping them together. That way we might also be able to explain the conflicting POVs in the article. What do you think? —Umofomia 17:53, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I haven't heard any objection for a while, so I'm going to do a page move to Continuous and progressive aspects, and then add the information about the two in the one article. —Umofomia 04:11, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I did the move and inserted preliminary text briefly describing the differences. I'll add the rest later (with references) when I get more time. —Umofomia 07:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The rest has been added. —Umofomia 09:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "at" construction

While writing my additions for Chinese progressive, I couldn't help but notice that the sections for German and Jèrriais use the preposition "at" to indicate progressive aspect, similar to the way Chinese can as well (using 喺度 in Cantonese and 正在 in Mandarin). I wonder if there's some generalized reason for this. I don't know where to look for such information, but it seems like an interesting thing to look into. —Umofomia 08:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I cannot say for Chinese, but for German and Dutch (using 'aan' also translated as 'at'), 'at' is a bit of a lousy translation, but I think the best one can do. German 'an' and Dutch 'aan' have a variety of meanings, one being 'at' ('aan de tafel', 'at the table'), but also a number of others. There's not one translation into English. Jalwikip 20:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dutch progressive

I removed "The continuous is not used very often in Dutch" at the start of the section about the Dutch progressive. It is, in colloquial speech, extremely common, common enough for my 2 year old daughter to have mastered it perfectly. I've also expanded it a bit, as there are more methods than were listed. I also removed the Riock Harrison link, as it is dead, and added a link to a PDF describing the progressives in various Germanic languages Jalwikip 20:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)