Talk:Contemporary Christian music

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The citation is in: Allyson Bergstrom. "Hard rock Christian Christian singer spreads gospel by rocking.", The Daily O'Collegian, January 20, 2005.


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Contents

[edit] Christian Metalcore

Something should be added in this about the importance of Christian music in the genre of Metalcore. As I Lay Dying, Zao, Norma Jean, and The Chariot are some of the most important bands in the genre of Metalcore, As I Lay Dying preformed at Ozzfest last year, and Norma Jean is preforming at it this year, and many of their fans are even atheists.

See Christian hardcore you may wanr to split Christian metalcore (not capitalisation) off. -- Paul foord 09:43, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] anybody outside the United States listen to CCM

Does anybody outside the United States listen to this stuff? Are there any prominent artists from other countries? --Robert Merkel 01:15 Jan 13, 2003 (UTC)

The largest Christian music festival is apparently the Greenbelt festival in England --rmhermen
The group Delirious? is, I believe, from the UK. They tour there, in the US, and in Australia. Their most recent tour includes dates in India, Finland, and Holland. --rholton
Both Newsboys and Rebecca St. James are Australian, and were very popular in their day (back in the '90s). I still think this is mainly an American phenomenon but there's certainly plenty in Canada, the U.K., and Australia. 141.158.237.141 05:39, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Both of those groups are still quite popular and still touring the U.S. Rmhermen 13:08, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)
There's also Tree63 in South Africa. I believe they're quite popular there as well in the US. Aidje 03:29, 2005 Mar 1 (UTC)
Blindside and Selfmindead are both from Sweden. Royal and Extol are also from Europe, I believe. Man Alive is from Israel. Thousand Foot Krutch, Hawk Nelson, The Undecided and others hail from Canada. Jpers36 13:32, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I worked around SE asia and the Western Pacific and saw a number of artists and groups in those areas, some quite remote. Coffeehouses in Japan were also noted to have CCM solo acts appear. Australia has a number of places where CCM (of all categories) is performed.


is this music only "country"-like, or are artists like kanye west, who sometimes sings with christian background also ccm?

CCM is not limited to 'country-like' music. There are Christian bands that are rock, punk, hardcore, hip-hop, and basically most everything else. Jpers36 13:35, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I would disagree with that statement. It is true that there are different types of Christian music, but I would say that Contemporary Christian consists of the more 'Pop' Groups (such as Casting Crowns or even Ray Boltz). Many of the punk, rock and everything else would qualify as alternative Christian rock (ie most of Tooth and Nail, Solid State, Gohtee Records and bands of that area).Dateless 1 der 05:50, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't think Christian background is sufficient though. CCM should be groups who produce music entirely intended to convey Christian values. As such, Kanye does not count in this category.--Will2k 14:36, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] External list

Would it be better for me to add a massive amount of bands in the list, or to add an external link to another site that has the list? Anaraug 19:31, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

Probably both. Add any group signficant enough to have an article written about it in the future and add the link to the external page. If the list gets to long we can split it off this page and add other navigation features. Rmhermen 21:04, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
I would favour limiting the list to those artists and groups which have historical significance, or if currently recording/touring have a substantial market share of a major label. Otherwise, we end up with thousands of local/regional bands and artist who might make it big in the future. In other words, I would include any group significant enough to have an article written about it now. Holford 20:47, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I admit my sentence was unclear. I meant that we should include any band important enough to deserve an article, not only bands that already have articles. Rmhermen 22:57, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)

It seems to me that the list is a bit too long. Is this really the proper place for everyone to put their favorite artists? In short, I agree with Holford. I think I do, anyway. I think that this list should contain only artists with historical significance. So I guess I don't totally agree: I don't think we can necessarily define whether someone is significant now or not. Perhaps we just need a good definition. Perhaps we could have a list of CCM artists separate from this article, rather than everyone listing their favorite artists here (I saw a few bands in that list that I've never even heard of, as well as some bands that are just plain in the secular market, such as U2 and Creed. Sure, maybe they're Christian. Does that make them CCM? I think I'm wandering again. Okay: I think that this list is not very well defined as to who can go in it. We should decide more specifically what it's for. That is what I mean. I could be wrong. Aidje 03:27, 2005 Mar 1 (UTC)

I think you are addressing two different issues. If the list is too long for this page we can separate it and add alphabetical headers for navigation. The list should be long and complete. See Wikipedia is not paper. There are, however, some minimums recognized, usually in Vfd discussions as to how notable a band needs to be to deserve an article. I am not sure whether they are written out anywhere. Maybe [[1]]. Usually any band with a recording contract, a couple albums and a few years existance, I think.
The second issue you raise is whether a group is classified under this genre. Recently this has become less clear with groups being less explicit in their lyrics and some groups having migrated from this genre to another secular one. Some bands early work is CCM but their later work isn't. They should still probably be listed here. Others like Creed and U2 which include Christian themes but reject the CCM label are less clear. Rmhermen 15:19, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
I guess I was talking about two different things. At the moment, I'm really more concerned about the first one. The reason I think the list is too long is that it says Notable, and yet we don't have any definition of what Notable means in this case. I do think that there should be a complete list, but I think that if it's complete, it should be on a separate page. The one on this page should either be reduced to artists that actually are Notable, or simple removed and a link added to the other list (obviously, if there's another list, it should be linked to regardless of whether the list on this page is removed). Aidje 18:50, 2005 Mar 3 (UTC)
Whether or not a band is on a "Christian Record Label" or a secular one shouldn't have anything to do with whether or not they belong in the CCM category. The lyrics and what the band members stand for should be the precidence. Thus a band like U2, who sings about God in their songs and does many things for Christian causes, should definitely belong in the list; as where a band like Creed who publicly claim to not be Christian, and whose lead singer says he doesn't really know what to think of whether he believes in God and Jesus probably should not be on the list. As for the length of the list, it is very long, but maybe it should just be categorized by musical genre instead of trimming it. - --Zephyrxero 23:13, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Notable artist on major labels? What about the indie's? A number of artists are only up on mp3 sites, or have web based distribution through thier ministries. They shouldn't be disregarded because of a lack of funding or significant contractual backing.

[edit] Images

The list of images are too long (longer than the article). I recommend two options:

  • Remove some images that aren't needed. Though I am not familiar with the importance of most of those albums so not sure which must be kept and which could go.
  • Someone with knowledge of how images work in wikipedia can layout two images right next to each other to try and compact the list.

--Will2k 17:25, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

While on the topic of images, does anyone object to moving the images beside the artists name as opposed to listing them in chronological order?--Will2k 15:01, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
I prefer the current way. They show a progression and also illustrate the text. If all are moved to the artist's names, they will be too crowded and there will be none alongside the text itself. Rmhermen 15:17, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
Well the biggest issue is the two stuffed in at the very end.--Will2k 05:10, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

I put the npov thing on because the criticisms section was removed completely and subsequent edits have been simply adding more positives about the genre.

Well, I feel that this page is quite objective. However, I grabbed the "criticisms" section from an older version and reworked it a little bit. Thoughts? --Snow1215 08:41, Apr 28, 2005
I assume that the npov thing can be removed now, since the "criticisms" section has been added back to the page. I hope this is okay. -- Snow1215 12:13, Apr 29, 2005

[edit] Travail

Dove Award nominees Travail are on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Travail, and their article is tagged for cleanup and expansion. Samaritan 20:56, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)


"Currently, Christian music sales exceed those for classical, jazz, and New Age music combined[1] (http://www.cmta.com/GMA%20Industry%20Overview.pdf)." says the article. However the article it links to as a source is US only. Secretlondon 01:48, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As far as I know there is no international tracking of album sales in any genre. Rmhermen 02:32, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] CCM vs Music by Christians - particularly alt genres

see

Paul foord 4 July 2005 03:43 (UTC)

[edit] Is CCM pop music?

I wonder is CCM Pop music for evangelical Christians? Paul foord 10:54, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

It certainly could be considered that, however, pop music is a genre and CCM is not a genre. CCM could be considered closer to a national music. You could not ask if Canadian Music is pop music. There are pop elements, rock, folk, metal, classical, jazz, and most western genres of music involved in CCM. CCM even uses Gospel music. --Walter Görlitz 15:44, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
It is also not restricted to evangelicals, although it is probably omst popular among them. Some CCM artists even occasionally have mainstream hits. Rmhermen 23:47, 20 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] record labels

I wonder, should Atlantic records be specifically listed under here? I don't think that Atlantic records is really a 'Christian' record label. It may have some Christian artists, but I wouldn't deem them as Christian.

"not deem them as Christian", but if they carry a substantial number of CCM artists then they belong, probably useful for some explanation though. Paul foord 01:04, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
I see more non-CCM artists under their label than I do actual CCM artists. I think 'atlantic records' and it just seems secular to me. am I alone on this one?

On the main page, the list seems too long. I think we should create a page called List of Contemporary Christian music labels. What do you all think? --Rejnal 22:58, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CCM vs. "Praise Music"

Are these the same thing, or two different genres? The Praise style seems to be much more contemporary than traditional Hymns, yet the inclusion of MxPx and U2 in this group seems to indicate that CCM is a genre dealing with groups that may not be "in your face" about being Christian. Thesquire 20:59, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] U2

I think that the reference to U2 is misleading - U2 were not a CCM group that broke out of the ghetto (minor examples of those would be ATF and Delirious ?) - they were a mainstream group which included Christians as members. However not all of U2 described themselves as Christian at the time.

Was Bob Dylan a CCM artist ?

-- Beardo 05:27, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I cannot find any references to Bob Dylan as a CCM artist. I also agree with you on this point; I will remove the reference. ~Linuxerist L / T 05:46, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Christian pop

Christian pop differs from CCM, but in a way many artists which were CCM artists are now classified as Christian pop artists. Take U2 for example. Another is Guy Sebastian. They are signed to a non-Christian label but sing songs with Christian lyrics. That would be classified as Christian pop but not CCM.

Christian pop is akin to popular culture.

Also artists like Bethany Dillon, Joy Williams, Zoegirl, BarlowGirl are now referred to as pop artists who are Christians (aka Christian pop artists), hence the term. (added by User:Candice Coppins)

This isn't entirely true. CCM has often meant the entire range from worship to pop to rock to punk. Rmhermen 15:12, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Who else thinks this? I'm from Australia, and to be honest with you, I have never even heard of the word Chrsitian Contemporary Music (CCM). And also, on the front page, it clearly says that the word is outdated. Okay, if it is, then what is the replacement? Christian pop seems the most obvious because it relates to the style of Christian pop culture living.

Candice Coppins 15:42, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I am for a fusion. The Christian pop music article beings this way: Christian pop music (also known as Contemporary Christian music)... Sucrine 15:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Soft rock?

The assertion that CCM is used nowadays to refer only to Christian "Soft Rock" is just plain wrong. This may be the case in the USA, but in the UK, the term CCM is used to refer to all genres of contemporary Christian music, including dance/trance/house/techno/whatever, as well as rock. Granted, the majority of CCM bands are probably soft rock bands, due to the popularity of guitar-led worship bands; but contemporary Christan dance music, for example, is still Contemporary Christian Music. Waggers 13:11, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page Cleanup

I did some overall editing and page cleanup to this article. I hope no one takes any offense to my work, particularly since, if you look in the page history, I am the one who wrote most of this material in the first place. Thank you! Snow1215 12:14, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Why are you gutting this article? Are there particular problems you are trying to fix? Please don't just delete large sections of the page though. The infobox, for instance, should not be removed. Rmhermen 20:34, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I am trying to fix a couple of problems:

  1. There is no need for the bit about Martin Luther's quote. That has more to do with Martin Luther than with CCM. It is superfluous.
  2. There really need be only 3 "views" stated: separatist, purist, and incidental. The 'spiritually reflective' postition does not deal with Christian involvement in popular music, but rather the Christian listener's attitude towards all popular music in general. It's a different subject, really
  3. The Artists section is currently quite silly and subjective. This is an encyclopedia article, not a blog about someone's favorite artists of the year. If the article really needs something like that, perhaps more objective and solid information would be better, like an end of the year top selling albums and singles list, or something.

Those are the main problems I was trying to fix. Hopefully as an administrator you will agree these improvements would better the article. Snow1215 13:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


I have to agree with Snow on this one. The bit about Martin Luther is perhaps relevant, but probably not in such great extent. I am going also going to try make the criticism part a little more NPOV. I am not going to completely throw out the old stuff, but there will be some changes. If this is a problem, feel free to post here, Rmhermen. -Patstuart 04:23, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox and General "Cleanup"

This article is getting worse and worse each edit! I propose to revert this version. Compared to the older one, the present one is very inferior. And User:Gazza13527 added the infobox which I understand User:Snow1215 deleted. User:Marissa Coppins then redirected the article to Christian pop music! Any major changes should be discussed here before it is done.

Because there are an article for each, Contemporary Christian music is not Christian pop music. (See the first sentence of Christian pop music.)

Now here is the infobox that was apparantly delted by User:Snow1215 and reinstated by User:Gazza13527. It was thereafter restored by me when I reverted to the last edit by User:Aviator33029. Well, here is the infobox that was deleted:

Contemporary Christian music (aka Christian pop)
Stylistic origins: A variety of influences evolving from the Jesus Music movement.
Cultural origins: 1960s United States and Australia
Typical instruments: Electric guitar, Bass guitar, Drums, Keyboard, Synthesizers
Mainstream popularity: Continuous from 1990s
Subgenres
Christian bubblegum pop - Christian hip hop - Christian rap - Christian metal - Christian punk - Christian rock - Christian worship music - Christian soft rock - Christian pop rock
Other topics
Christian pop culture - Christian boy band - Christian girl group


Here is what I think of the infobox.

  1. The (aka Christian pop) should be taken out (See my second paragraph).
  2. Is this true? A variety of influences evolving from the Jesus Music movement.
  3. Why is Continuous from 1990s in the popularity parameter smaller than surrounding text? Is there something else that can be placed in that parameter?
  4. Never heard of Christian bubblegum pop
  5. Other topics? Christian boy band? Christian girl group? The wording sounds like a second grader's.

Please reply to my comment. —Black and White (TALKCONTRIBS) 22:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree with you Black and White, except on #2: the movement does have roots in the Jesus Movement. But the others? Christian bubblegum pop shouldn't even have its own page, and Christian boy band might be a phenomenon, but not worth mentioning in the infobox. --Patstuart 17:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
As for your other comments: there have been some reasonable changes made to the page (I suppose I'm a little biased towards my own). I looked back on the history, and someone removed decided to "scatter fair-use images"; in other words, he took them out, but I can't find any good reason why (it makes the page much uglier). Finally, there is a lot of linkspam on this page, and I'd like to take a quick survey to see if we agree it's OK to go in and clean that junk out.
So, in summary, I propose
1) adding the images back in (if no one says anything, I may do this on my own)
2) Fixing up the infobox (and possibly even nominating Christian Bubblegum Pop for deletion). Besides, do we really need two infoboxes? They both say exactly the same thing.
3) getting rid of the heavy linkspam (I just may do this on my own too) --Patstuart 17:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikiproject?

Does anyone else think that CCM and Christian Contemporary Music should receive a Wikiproject. I have been thinking of this for quite some time. Some major artists (Matthew West) still don't have Wikipedia pages. Many other artists including MercyMe, Casting Crowns, Jeremy Camp, etc, have only a small portion of information, and barely any information about their albums and singles. I would be willing to participate if anyone would like to start this Wikiproject. I think it is highly needed, especially with the growing popularity with CCM. However, I believe it should be soley to Christian Contemporary Music, and not include Gospel. The two can overlap, but Gospel should get its own Wikiproject, and not be directly connected with CCM, due to the large differences. Casey14 20:41, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Keith Green

Someone (IP address only) added this text to the article: "Keith Green was the first of these artists to record with the London Philharmonic Orchestra." Can anyone tell me if this is relevant to the article or not? I don't mean to be picky, but if it turns out that someone is just adding stuff to the article that shouldn't be there, then we should remove it. --Patstuart 16:19, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Answer:It was a significant achievement at the time, something totally new. An ex-hippie singing with a Philarmonic Orchestra! Christian music! It impulse better musical cuality in the industry.I vote "Songs for the Shepherd" the best almum in contemporary christian music.It deserves at least to be mentioned in the article.By the way,Green was the only christian artist at the 80's sending almost free albums by mail. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.50.12.225 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Radio Station available online

WCIC-FM (91.5 FM in Peoria, Illinois) is available online. They are non-commercial and non-profit. Their website is http://wcicfm.org. Their feed is at http://wcicfm.org/wcic.m3u. Enjoy. Will (Talk - contribs) 02:16, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! I may use that some day. :) --Patstuart 03:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I listed it so it could be added to the article. I can't add it as it is the ONLY station I listen to.  :D I would be biased.

BTW: If you like WCIC, you might be interested in helping out at the Christian Music Wiki. We need all the help we can get. Your account is good at all Wikia.com wikis, which includes the Star Trek wiki MemoryAlpha. Will (Talk - contribs) 05:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Views

I see a lot of views discussed in this article, including that of those who feel that contemporary music is inherently bad and shouldn't be imitated. However, I see no discussion of a certainly quite-common viewpoint, that being that contemporary music is good, and that CCM doesn't imitate it _well enough_, instead sounding like a cheap or lame imitation of out-of-style music, and therefore making us christians look out of touch. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.122.63.142 (talk • contribs).

I actually tried to clean it up quite a bit; it was even uglier before. If you believe that you can add or chang something that will make the article conform better to the WP:POV policy, then I encourage you to do so; be bold in editing. -Patstuart 17:11, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalization?

Is there a specific reason Contemporary is always capitalized? Usually you don't see other forms of music capitalized like this. I noticed that other phrases in the artical, such as Fundamentalist Christian, were also capitalized like this. Any real reason, or can it be fixed? Cat Parade 02:50, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, CCM has become a title for the type of music. It's not necessary, I assume, but it's become a de facto way of referring to the music. If you want to change it, I don't think anyone would mind. -Patstuart 03:19, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] We have a user, User talk:Cmspin that keeps adding cmspin.com to the links list

I think he or she should wait for for a consensus here. However, he or she is not willing to wait. Since the user name is the same as the URL, I have to believe the user account was added soley to attract traffic to the website. Please comment. Will (Talk - contribs) 05:35, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page Cleanup

Please take a look at this version of the page as a possibility for a new, cleaned up version of this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Contemporary_Christian_music&oldid=83697215 So much of the current article is unencyclopedic and unnecessary. Less is more, so to speak. If anything, more could be written on the actual history of the genre. But the entire "Views" and "Criticisms" sections are not needed at all, in my opinion. As far as I know, no other music genre page has these sections. Snow1215 21:53, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I would be all for it; I think near everybody watching the page thinks the current version is lousy. Anyone else agree? -Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 22:49, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I'll give it a shot. Thanks. Snow1215 02:37, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Much better, I'd say. Now we'll have to wait til someone comes along who added a big section, and that person will get mad. But it's definitely better now. -Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 05:42, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Catholic Music Zine

The link for it should be removed. This article is for Contemporary CHRISTIAN Music only.

Last time I checked, Catholics were considered to be part of Christianity. If you're aware of a change, please let us know. Thanks. --Ckatzchatspy 23:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Catholicism is no longer considered a part of Christianity. The Catholic views have become far too different from Christian views. Also, Catholic music artists are not played on Contemporary Christian Music radio, and are not featured in anything having to do with Contemporary Christian Music, execpt for the link here on Wikipedia, which should be removed. -------- Switchfo0t813 22:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
If you're going to make an assertion like that, you'll definitely need to back it up with some pretty hefty citations from reputable, mainstream theological sources. For that matter, you'll probably need to start by convincing the editors over at Christianity to rewrite that page as well, since it makes no mention of the split that you describe. Until then, there is no valid reason for removing the link in question, or for that matter for removing the "See also" link to Korean Contemporary Christian music. --01:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, well keep it there for now then. But please leave the link for www.jesusfreakhideout.com there please. =] --- Switchfo0t813
Well, if you feel it belongs here, I have no reason to remove it. My concern is to avoiding "duelling links", where editors are swapping in their favourite sites and deleting others. Cheers. --Ckatzchatspy 02:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I havn't seen anyone ask every single CCM artist what branch of the Christian religion they are. There are many Protestant artists, but there are still Catholics and Orthodox artists. Christianity, Catholicism, Protestantism, Eastern Orthodox Casey14 03:14, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Casey14, consider this a warning. For your sake, I have deleted several portions of your above comment that could be considered as a personal attack against Switchfo0t813. Please be advised that this is not an attempt to censor your thoughts. However, you should be aware that the talk page is only for discussing the article topic. Wikipedia policy does not permit personal attacks of the sort you wrote above, and Switchfo0t813 would be well within his/her rights to protest. --Ckatzchatspy 03:41, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Catholics were the first Christians. Any history or religion book will state that. How can one say that they arn't even Christians? Wikipedia is not a place to bring discrimination against different groups into articles. And by the way, Switchfo0t813 personally atacked me, by saying I was not a Christian, take that into consideration. Casey14 03:45, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Trust me, I do understand your perspective on this. However, there is a difference between a broad statement like "Catholics aren't Christians", which can be discussed by all editors, and an argument that deteriorates into "You're X", or "You're not Y" between individuals. Your second post makes the same point about Catholicism as your first post, but avoids the personal attacks that could get you blocked by an administrator. (I'm not an admin, by the way - just offering advice.) --Ckatzchatspy 04:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Switchfo0t813, could you please tell me how Catholics are not Christians. Casey14 03:58, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I want to bring up another point. Does the link in question meet the WP:EL criteria? If not, the entire discussion is mute. -Will Pittenger 05:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

It's certainly a valid question - but also one that would have to be applied to the entire list, not just one selected link. --Ckatzchatspy 08:03, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Then let's do so in another thread. See below. Will (Talk - contribs) 15:56, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Casey14, you are correct in saying that Catholics were the first Christians. However, and this is not a personal attack against Catholicism, the Catholic Church has taken their views far out of proportion, and have literally seperated themselves in many ways from the views of Christianity. For example, Jesus clearly states in the Bible that one must believe and be baptized and accept him into their hearts in order to recieve eternal life. Catholics however do not teach this practice, and instead sprinkle babies at birth. Those babies are not aware of the choice that they have to make in Christ. That is only one of the few reasons why Catholics have seperated themselves so much from the original teachings of Christianity. ---- Switchfo0t813 23 November, 2006 (Happy Thanksgiving)
Catholicism is one of the three branches of Christianity. Catholics may have some minor differences from Protestants, but Catholics are still very much Christians. They are not Protestants. There is a difference between Protestantism and Christianity. And, Catholics do teach the acceptance of Jesus Christ as their savior, and they baptize children at birth. Catholics do something called confirmation when you want to accept Christ. Casey14 15:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Methodists also baptize at birth and use confirmation in a similar manner as the Catholics. However, we have many differences. Catholics hold that the mother of Jesus was herself holy. If so, then those of us that are Methodists have to ask why did we need her son? We could have crucified her instead. (Hey, it's the era of womens' lib.) -Will Pittenger 15:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The whole point of this debate is that on Wikipedia, you cannot bring biased disagreements about different religions into articles. All different Christian religions have different beliefs. On Wikipedia, when an article is about Christianity as a whole, we cannot discriminate against different groups of Christianity. Casey14 16:35, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Let's vote which external sites should be kept

Which external links do we want to keep? I vote that we block any commercial site with vigor. Will (Talk - contribs) 15:58, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I just removed a bunch of them. We'll see what happens. --King Bee 17:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aly and AJ, or no Aly and AJ ?

I've noticed the beginnings of a revert war, so let's discuss. Admittedly, I don't listen to CCM, but I have heard of every act listed there except Aly and AJ. I don't think that being a fan of them is enough to warrant their appearance here. I say we remove them from the list of "such as" bands. --King Bee 22:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Remove. Aly & AJ, while having some minor crossover hits, has not acheived major recognition either in Christian or secular circles. Jpers36 23:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I think they should stay. Jpers36, they actually were nominated for Christian Artist of the Year at this year's 2006 American Music Awards. Just because they are "new" doesn't mean we shouldn't include them. "Such as" lists should contain familiar faces in CCM like Amy Grant and Relient K, but should also include breaking out artists like Aly & AJ. And, this is not a personal attack, Aly & AJ had a #1 Christian CHR hit earlier this year with the song "Never Far Behind", and they are releasing their second Christian radio only song tomorrow (December 5), which is called "Shine." They need to stay. Switchfo0t813 23:30, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Switchfo0t813, can you cite those claims you make about their CHR hit and the second Christian radio song? --King Bee 18:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Remove Aly and AJ have only had one hit in their career, according to Switchfo0t813. Most of their popularity has came from being on some Disney channel show, and not actually being a part of the Christian music scene. One hit is not enough to warrant them to be one of the major singers/bands on the page. Many other current bands, that are "new" have many more hits, such as Sanctus Real, Starfield, Leeland, the Afters and others, arn't included, and neither should Aly and AJ, which many less people know about. Casey14 22:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

They're gone. After a week, only one person is in favor of keeping them in the article. I also checked out their myspace page, and not one appearance of the word "Christian" or "Jesus" is to be found. I agree with Casey14. --King Bee 16:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Remove - first off, they are only a pseudo-Christian band. But please listen to my reasoning here: we already have several bands listed. We can mention another band if we wish. In other words, it's not the end of the world if we say David Crowder Band instead (besides, he's much more notable in the industry anyway). Do you see what I mean? It's not worth revert warring over it. -Patstuarttalk|edits 15:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Consensus seemed to be to remove Aly & AJ, but they have returned under a different wording. This appears to be contrary to the above discussion, so I have removed them. They also seem to fail the notability test, as per the same discussion. Thoughts? --Ckatzchatspy 09:00, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Outside of Wikipedia, I've never even heard of them. –King Bee (talk • contribs) 12:42, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
They should not be on ANY Christian music list. We had a Mediation over this, and it was agreed that they are teen pop. There are sources to prove that they are teen pop. I have the Into The Rush album, and the album isn't Christian, or any religion, at all. Acalamari 20:20, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
The problem isn't that they aren't Christian, Acalamari. The problem is they are not notable enough to be mentioned with the other bands that have the "Christian themes, but not Christian genre" tag. For instance, we are not going to list them alongside Bob Dylan, U2 and Coldplay. –King Bee (talk • contribs) 21:34, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I know they're not Christian. I pointed this fact out. As for Bob Dylan, U2, and Coldplay, I didn't realize that they were in the "Christian theme, bot Christian genre" category. Also, I didn't think that Aly & AJ's music was even Christian themed. The only thing with Aly & AJ is that they are Christians, not their music. Acalamari 21:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
In that Blender magazine interview, they stated that they instill Christian ideas into their music, just like the other artists listed on the CCM page. Switchfo0t813 22:08, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Switchfo0t813, I know. It's that they aren't notable enough. That's the issue here. –King Bee (talk • contribs) 22:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually, they are a fairly notable band. I've heard of them quite often, in and out of the Christian circle (they're always right on the cusp if in). Perhaps we could list them as on an on the bubble band. Patstuarttalk|edits 22:54, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
The same can be said about Sanctus Real, Building 429, Stellar Kart, Nichole Nordeman, Joy Williams, Bethany Dillon, Natalie Grant, BarlowGirl, tobyMac, Rebecca St. James, Leeland, Krystal Myers, Shawn McDonald, and countless others. Aly and AJ are less notable than many I listed. Why should they be included why others are not? Casey14 22:59, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

(deindent) Someone added them to the list again. WAVY 10 17:51, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

While Aly & AJ did have that one single which was a #1 hit on CCM radio, it was their only CCM chart hit to the best of my knowledge. The single is on an import CD (from the U.S. perspective). I agree with Casey14's comment that they are less notable than the other artists listed, so I think delist them. I have heard some of their other songs on mainstream pop radio stations and on the Disney Channel, but that's irrelevant to this discussion. I think that BarlowGirl should be listed though, as "I Need You to Love Me" was most played song on CCM in 2006, and "Never Alone" was so huge in 2004. Royalbroil T : C 05:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Coldplay

I think U2 and Bob Dylan are great examples of mainstream artists who also deal with spiritual themes from a Christian perspective; they have both even released Christian albums (October and Slow Train Coming, respectively). I'm not as sure about Coldplay. I'm not questioning whether the artists are Christians and sometimes write from a Christian point of view; I just think it may not be as evident as U2, Dylan or certain other artists. For example, how about Johnny Cash, T-Bone Burnett, or Alice Cooper? Jpers36 16:17, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism section

Earlier today, the entire "Criticism" section was reverted outright without any discussion. Personally, I think the information was interesting - I didn't realize that the genre was banned at some Christian institutions. The text might need a rewrite for clarity and style, citations for verifiability, and perhaps a different heading (so as to avoid being a magnet for mischief-makers). However, I think that if done properly, it can actually improve the article by making it more encyclopedic. Thoughts? --Ckatzchatspy 22:30, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, CCM is simply a genre of music. Every genre of music has it's critics - ("I hate country music", etc). Just because some extreme fundamentalist Christians have banned the music in the past (along with every other type of music other than hymns) doesn't necessarily make it a needed aspect of this article. I wouldn't be opposed to something more encyclopedic, as you suggested, but the Criticisms section as it stands now is not encyclopedic or relevant. Snow1215 23:08, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
There's a difference, though, between "I hate country music" (which is personal preference) and "You can't play that music at this institution" (which could be defined as censorship). The latter is notable, especially given that the presumption amongst non-Christians might be that all Christians openly accept Christian music. As well, while CCM is a genre of music, it represents something beyond that, given that the category is defined not just as a music style but also by the message it conveys. I will say again that a different section heading would help (although I can't think of one right now.) "Criticisms" is a bit of a loaded term, and can attract the wrong sort of contributions. (It's kind of like having an "Observations" section in a TV article - it invites anyone who has a thought, complaint or bit of trivia to toss it in, as opposed to relevant information.) --Ckatzchatspy 04:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Take a look at my latest edit and see what you think. Feel free to change as needed. Snow1215 19:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


This article is quite one-sided! The only subsection with text is "Criticism." Hardly a balanced presentation. There needs to be a section arguing the other side.--Camulod 06:17, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, there needs to be some heavy-duty support to the implication that Bob Jones University speaks for the average conservative Christian; even people I've known who are affiliated with the school would admit that it is not a mainstream organization. I would strongly recommend that the BJU example be stricken and replaced with an example involving an organization that is less of a fringe group.--Camulod 06:17, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

There used to be some counter-points, from what I recall. I think they went away when Snow1215 made some changes, but I could be mistaken. Again, the section heading is a big POV problem, but titles like "Controversy" and "Criticisms" are problematic across the Wiki. What about something like "Reception" or "Public reaction"? Might that be a bit more neutral? It would also be interesting to see some exploration of the makeup of the audience; is it primarily people of Christian faiths, or is there "outside" interest as well? --Ckatzchatspy 06:32, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MacArthur Irony

Is it just me, or does it seem ironic that John MacArthur (known for criticizing CCM) once called CCM veteran Steve Camp "Keith Green with theology"? Is it possible he changed his stand on this issue?

WAVY 10 17:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Christian musician guidelines

After seeing the Aly & AJ "debate" on this talk page (and wading through a similar discussion a few weeks ago on the Miley Cyrus talk page), I have a set of guidelines for those to be included in the Christian musician category.

They must...

1. Be Christians themselves. (NON-NEGOTIABLE)

2. Make music for a Christian audience (This is where the Aly & AJ madness sparked.)

There. That's fairly simple, I would think.

WAVY 10 16:08, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

One big (BIG) problem with this - it means that Wikipedia is acting as the deciding body for what constitutes CCM, as opposed to reporting what others say (including the artists themselves). In a similar vein, it would be inappropriate to say "X is not a jazz artist because of..." The encyclopedia would instead say "Y and Z do not consider X to be a jazz artist, because of..." --Ckatzchatspy 04:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
All I'm saying is that should be a qualification for these musician's articles to be categorized on Wikipedia!

WAVY 10 15:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality

This article can hardly be considered Neutral. While expressing criticisms of CCM is valid and merited, there should be a section devoted to the opposing view, perhaps documenting its popularity. The tone of the article as it currently stands would suggest that there is huge opposition to and little support of CCM.--Camulod 06:23, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Look at the References section. Almost all of those are books supporting CCM.

WAVY 10 15:15, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Selection of artists listed

The list of artists mentioned near the top of the article is in question. Obviously this list can only be a small sample, but it is almost entirely currently-popular artists. In the spirit of a more encyclopedic approach, it ought to include a sampling of artists representative of the whole historic sweep of the CCM genre (dating to the 80s, not the 90s, as incorrectly mentioned in the infobox). Encyclopedias are generally not about tracking the most current trends, but about giving a broader picture of a subject. Of course, 20 different people may generate 20 rather different lists of who should be represented, but I'm sure there are a few that could be agreed upon. Steven Curtis Chapman is the one already mentioned in the article who would best fit the bill. And what happened to Keith Green? Regardless of anyone's like or dislike of his music, from an objective standpoint, it would be hard to argue his influence on the genre (the enduring popularity of his music, its increased acceptance even in more traditional-minded churches, and--more to the point of this article--his influence on later musicians and on the genre as a whole).--Camulod 06:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

On the list had been/ are Amy Grant, Michael W. Smith, and Steven Curtis Chapman, who are probably three of the most influential CCM artists of all time. They should stay. Casey14 19:29, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Added Petra, not because of personal preference but because of the band's significant impact to CCM. Also added Keith Green and Michael Card for the same reasons.--Camulod 13:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Can anybody really justify Relient K being in this very short list of singers/ groups who are supposed to be representative of CCM? Since there is debate over whether they should even be classified as a Christian band (or a band whose members are Christian), then they don't belong on this short list. Please speak up of you have a convincing reason otherwise.--Camulod 14:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

They are probably the biggest CCM group today in mainstream, and they are obviously a Christian band. They are on CCM charts, in CCM magazines, on CCM stations and radio shows, take part in CCM awards. There is really no debate, except for those fans who want to hear that the band is not Christian. Casey14 19:20, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scripture list

Why not put a list of Scripture references pertaining to music and/or how we are to worship in church so the readers can search for themselves what their feelings about CCM should be; instead of simply the opinions of the talking heads for or against it?

WAVY 10 15:17, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

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