Talk:Constitution of Ireland
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[edit] Warrants from UK courts
the name of the case in the supreme court was Ellis v O'Dea [1989] I.R. 530
Could someone redirect this page to Bunreacht na hÉireann as there is a full page on the Irish constitution there. I can't do a redirect as I cannot type in one of the key commands needed. JTD Jan 17, 2003
This information may be of some use to people seeking to understand Irish government and politics. JTD 27 Nov 2002
[edit] Religion
Moved from main text: "Modern pluralist concepts of religious neutrality only date from the second half of the twentieth century." The US constitution is among the earlier (notably Enlightenment) documents that reflect this concept.
More generally, this article needs NPOV'ing, but I'd like someone who knows more about Irish history to attempt it. Vicki Rosenzweig November 28, 2002
- What the above sentence meant was that many of Europe's constitutions enshrined the religious supremacy of one faith (Norway and Britain among others still have established state churches!, while even the Italian Republic's constitution recognised Roman Catholicism has having a special role, until a recent change). In the 1920s, with the fall of many ancient states after World War One, a new style of populist democratic constitution appeared (Austria, Weimar Germany, Irish Free State) which left religious issues to one side, arguing that the state should be neutral on matters of faith. By the 1930s, a backlash occured, with new constitutions abandoning what was seen as the 'trendy liberalism' of the 1920s and returning to what could be called 'faith and fatherland', old cultural symbols such as religion and national symbols.
- The United States constitution is a special case that in reality is of no relevance to the Irish debate. Its religious neutrality was a product of its period, its underlying principles and also its need to deal with an American society that was made up of many religious groupings, none of which had a history of dominance that occured in Europe (hence the appearance of so many religious migrants who found that, whatever their faith, they were in a discriminated against minority because of their beliefs in their home country.)
- I probably could have expressed it better, but Vicki is as so often happens looking at the world from an American perspective, without understanding the relevant context. What I wrote was correct in an Irish context. The Catholicism in the Irish constitution pretty much matched the religious nature of European constitutions, not of the enlightenment but of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, which is the context from which de Valera's Bunreacht na hÉireann must be judged. Had it been written in the era of 1920s liberalism it would have been different. Had it appeared in the post-World War II era, again it probably would have been different. But in that time it fitted into a standard pattern, and can only be judged in that context. The US constitution and the burst of enlightenment is irrelevant to all of that. I stand by my comment and will be editing my page to express this is a different manner. JTD December 8, 2002
Re the reference to 'far right' catholics like Maria Duce, it may look POV but it isn't. 100% of people in Ireland, including members of Maria Duce, saw the group as far right (many of them had links with anti-semitic groups and pro-Franco organisations). Even conservative Catholic Bishops saw MD as far right. So it isn't POV. It is the same as calling the nazis 'anti-semitic', calling communists 'extreme left', fascists 'extreme right' etc. It is a univerally accepted label which members of Maria Duce wore with pride. Even conservative catholics found the organisation extremist and distasteful. It isn't a definition that has is POV but universally accepted as accurate. ÉÍREman 23:33 Apr 23, 2003 (UTC)
- I will defer to your expertise -º¡º
[edit] QUERIES TO THE AUTHOR(S) OF THE PRESENT VERSION
http: //www.wikipedia.org/wikki/constitution_of_ireland
FIRST QUERY This article states “NB: It should be noted that this page has been the subject of many revisions, most of which concern the interpretation of the Constitution of Ireland as a pro-Catholic document reflecting the idea of a 'Catholic Ireland for a Catholic People'. The revision history has been deleted, and the current page contents reflect the contended view that the Irish Constitution has little or no Catholic bias. The reader is encouraged to view the original document.”
Where can we see that revision history which has been deleted?
SECOND QUERY This article also states that : "The controversial Articles 2 and 3 asserted that there was an all-island "Irish nation" or national territory. Such an idea had been widely accepted, even by the Dublin-born Irish unionist leader Edward Carson."
I have heard this idea of a 'natural' all-island national territory being put forward many times, but never any arguments foridentities and against it. This puzzles me as Ireland contains two ethnic groups with very different national identities and aspirations. Could the author(s) provide me with the arguments for and against, or refer me to some authoritative sources. Additionally, I was aware that initially at least Edward Carson wanted to maintain the union with Britain for the whole island of Ireland, but that he espoused the idea of an all island "Irish nation" is new to me. Perhaps the author(s) would provide the authoritative source(s) for this assertion too.
- The Myth section is simply not NPOV either in style of content. The style is of an apologetic: the "Republic of Ireland" is not a myth, just a natural error (it is difficult to imagine changing the head of state from a heriditary one to an elected one without changing the constitution). The Catholicism myth is dubious and the whole island myth is factually wrong. Carson's order of preference was (a) Ireland in the UK, (b) Ulster in the UK, (c) an independent island of Ireland; de Valera's was the reverse; both were prepared to fight for their beliefs which is why the end result was (b), but neither changed their views.
[edit] Name
I replaced most uses of Bunreacht in the running text with Constitution, as that's the English name, both commonly used by the vast majority of English speakers and used in the official English version of the Irish Constitution as available from the attorney general's website. Fairly similar to how we don't talk about the Syntagma in running text throughout the Constitution of Greece, since Syntagma isn't a word used in English. --Delirium 19:55, May 22, 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Kingdom/Republic
We need to mention the remarkableness of a state with a constitution changing its status from being a kingdom to being a republic without amending its constitution! Morwen 21:55, May 22, 2004 (UTC)
- Eh?
[edit] Ne Temere
Could somebody give me a source for the claim that a legal consequence of recognising the status of the RC church meant that Ne Temere judgements were regarded as legally enforcable? I remember reading on a work on the Irish constitution that there was some doubt if this clause had any practical effect, one poliltician suggested that it could mean that the privacy of the confessional was legally guaranteed, but this was never tested in the courts. This is the sort of thing where I get a hunch that if true then I would have heard about it before now. The courts may have regarded some aspects of Ne temere as legally enforcable, but this could have been for more complicated reasons e.g. the law of contract. I will look into this myself, but if nobody responds in a reasonable time I will change. PatGallacher 12:47, 2005 Feb 19 (UTC)
[edit] Interesting fact about the "Emergency"
I was just reading this section...
"National emergency Under Article 28, the constitution grants the state sweeping powers during a "time of war or armed rebellion", which may include an armed conflict in which the state is not a direct participant. In such circumstances a "national emergency" may be declared to exist by both houses of the Oireachtas (parliament). During such a period the Oireachtas may pass laws that would otherwise be unconstitutional and the actions of the executive cannot be found to be ultra vires or unconstitutional provided they at least "purport" to be in pursuance of such a law. However, the constitutional prohibition on the death penalty is absolute and it may not be introduced during a "time of war". Two national emergencies have existed since 1937: an emergency declared in 1940 to cover the threat to national security posed by World War II, and an emergency declared in 1976 to deal with the threat to the security of the state posed by the Provisional IRA."
And I remembered something my uncle (who knows allot about these things) once told me about this issue, if I remember correctly he said that when the government went to declare an emergency in 1976 they discovered that the previous Emergency (the WW2 one) had never been declared over. Thus from WW2 to 1976, Ireland was under a state of Emergency but no-one knew, meaning the state could have had all sorts of powers but never used them because no-one was aware of the fact. So in 76 they had to remove the first Emergency before they could bring in a new one. And they then put in a clause that said the all future Emergencies would have to be reviewed every 6 months (or something) so that the previous mistake wouldn't happen again. Now that's what my Uncle told me, do any of you know if this is true? And should it be in the article (or anywhere on wiki)?
--Hibernian 17:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
- If you read The Emergency that is indeed the case. Some background material[1] and also the resolution of the Dail[2] and Seanad[3]. Djegan 19:21, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Ah, so it is true, good to know, I'll never doubt my uncle again lol.--Hibernian 08:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Article 40.3
Should a more comprehensive discussion not be made about the importance that artice 40.3 has had in terms of affording uninumerated personal rights such as the right of the unmarried mother to custody and the right to marital privacy? Jivet 16:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- Ultimately the content should balance the importance of the constitutional article so if its reasonable to say that the constitutional article is very important (in daily or constitutional life) then go ahead. But remember that WP:NPOV and WP:VERIFY (amongst other policies and guidlines) are important considerations when adding content. Djegan 17:03, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I added in a small paragraph on this issue. Do i need to reference the judgments with court citations?Jivet 13:52, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- References are not absolutely required (but if someone uses {{fact}}, for instance, then no forthcoming references could see removal of claims at a later stage) but simply good practice and user friendly. You can look thru' other articles, particularily topical or controversial issues, and they will give you an idea of the style and layout of references. Its not something to get overly worried about, unless you add controversial or outlandish claims. Djegan 23:55, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The Twenty-seventh Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland, 2004.
I would like to ask about The Twenty-seventh Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland. I've read here: "While the changes shown above are those made to the English language version of the constitution, constitutionally it is the Irish text that has precedence." Is it still true, do the changes are made only to the English version of the constitution or something was changed recently? Do you know something about that? I'm thinking: if that is really true, the child born in Ireland in 2007 would be still entitled to irish citizenship by birth (automatically) in the case when both parents are non-nationals at the time of the child birth because: "The Irish text of the constitution takes precedence over the English text (Articles 25 and 63)"?
What do you think about that? Am I right?
I would be gratefull for any answers. Mariusz pl 00:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- It is true that the Irish-language text takes precedence over the English-language one in times of lingual interpretational conflict. However, the Irish text was also amended along with the English one with the completion of the twenty-seventh amendment. If I understand you correctly, I get the impression that you believe the Irish text was not amended - just the English text. This is incorrect. A constitutional amendment has always encompassed the amendment of the two separate texts as they are to conform to one another's respective meaning as much as is possible. The English text is never amended independently of the Irish text, nor vice-versa. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 11:29, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] conflict between Article 2 and new Article 9.2.
It seems there is conflict between Article 2 and new Article 9.2. of the Constitution of Ireland. The first one gives citizenship to everyone born in the island of Ireland, the second limits that entitlement only to born to at least one parent who is, or is entitled to be, an Irish citizen. The conflict is evident. In this situation which of these articles take precedence? The text of the Constitution doesn't give clear answer, because phrase contained in Article 9.2: "Notwithstanding any other provision of this Constitution ..." doesn't alter the meaning of article 2, which states that everyone born in the island of Ireland is Irish citizen. The amendment should firstly repeal the text of article 2 and then add text of new article 9.2., because in the current version first provision gives the right whereas second provision deprives of the same right. I'm thinking if the new article 9.2 is lawful and constitutional because is inconsistent with the rest of the text of the Constitution. Is there any opinion in this matter given by The Supreme Court? Mariusz pl 03:06, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] question to the author
What does the author mean saying: "While the changes shown above are those made to the English language version of the constitution, constitutionally it is the Irish text that has precedence." (Text - " Twenty seventh amendment of The Constitution...")Mariusz pl 01:03, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
