Talk:Constantine I

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[edit] Constantinople??

Constantine's most important legacy was the founding of the city which would perpetuate the Empire for a thousand years.Also that he was a complete and total twat. That should be mentioned, no? --130.85.239.65 01:33, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Laughingskeptic

To say Constantine endorsed Christianity is such an understatement as to be a misstatement. He helped to define Christianity as we know it today and made the Christianity that he personally had a hand in defining at the Council of Nicaea (325 A.D.) the state religion of the Roman Empire. The Council of Nicaea was called by Constantine, not the church fathers and at this council many debates were ended, such as whether Jesus was a man-god or not. Up until this time such fundamental notions that we take for granted today such as whether Jesus had been an actual living/breathing human were actually undecided. After getting a solid definition for this new religion, Constantine 'converted' the entire empire-spanning Roman church, of which he was the head, from the traditional Roman religion to Christianity. Overnight the loosely knit original Christians became a minority in a huge, well structured empire-spanning state religion. Overnight the Temple of Jupiter became the church of Saint Peter. To say he endorsed Christianity is a larger understatement than to say Thomas Jefferson endorsed the American revolution. Laughingskeptic 2003

Laughingskeptic: I'm no fan of Constantine, but it sounds like you've spent more time in tripe like _The Da Vinci Code_ and _Holy Blood, Holy Grail_ than in real historical sources. The debate on Jesus as human or divine neither began nor ended at Nicaea. And your statement that "up until this time such fundamental notions that we take for granted today such as whether Jesus had been an actual living/breathing human were actually undecided" is a wildly inaccurate and absurd statement. And "converted" the Empire? The success of Emperor Julian only a few decades later demonstrates that the Empire was far from converted.

Constantine is considered a saint by the Orthodox Church. On 21 May the Orthodox Churches celebrate "The Holy Emperors Constantine and Helen"

I believe the phrase "...debate over the veracity of his faith because he was baptized only on his death bed" is misleading;there are several very good reasons to doubt his conversion, and stating only one understates the case against his conversion. Any disagreement? JoelJohnson.

Which reasons?
It is consensus among scholars today, that Constantine venerated the Christian God. Subject for debate is when that happened, and how "orthodox" his Christian faith was. Varana 10:18, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brutannica

Could someone tell me how to reorganize paragraphs? I think this page needs some reorganization. For instance, there should be a section on Constantine's pro-Christian policies, then the bit on the Sassanid Empire, then the dispute about Constantine's personal beliefs. This requires switching the order of the paragraphs and in some cases moving around sentences and such, so could someone explain how to do this please? Brutannica 23:02, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

User:Brutannicus has miscorrected Maximian to "Maximilian"; intruded Geoffrey of Monmouth into the history (like intruding medieval Alexander tapestries into a bio of Alexander the Great; blurred the meaning of an Edict of Milan he has never looked at. I have carefully incorporated his dab on Constantius into the revised text, treating him with more respect that I expect in return.

I have resited Motters excellent new image to relate to York in the text.

I have created a subsection for Geoffrey of Monmouth. Anyone who credits him should be sentenced to read him. Wetman 23:40, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

"The English chronicler Geoffrey of Monmouth"... he was Welsh, wasn't he?

Actually, I originally wrote "Maximilian," found it incorrect, and corrected it. Also, I didn't write anything about Geoffrey. But in what way did I blur the Edict, and if so, then why didn't you correct it? Also, what does "dab" mean, and you didn't incorporate anything I wrote about Constantius into the revised text (but all I did was clarify his political career!).

And does this mean that you're not interested in reorganizing the page? Brutannica 00:20, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It's been almost a month, so I'm going to redo this. If anyone has any complaints, post them here phrased clearly. Brutannica 22:57, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Better fix your link to Battle of Naissus. It's now a link to Naissus. Not the same article. Wetman 09:04, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The link originally read Naissus, so I just assumed there was no link for Battle of Naissus. Brutannica 21:20, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The link Naissus links to the city of Nis (historical Naissus) with its history. The link Battle of Naissus links to the battle, but "Naissus" is all that's required in the context of the text.

[edit] Wetman

"an incomplete acceptance of Christianity to a modern view was his willingness to wage wars in the name of a religion that preached peace and his notorious cruelty" This is very sweet. Is it really as naive as it appears? Why is this non-historical tripe considered "Neutral Point of View"? So smugly self-serving... Sunday School! Wetman 21:26, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

  • sigh* Well, the fact is that I don't understand how you can reconcile Christian doctrine with war. Constantine fought battles in the name of Jesus, even though as far as I know he preached peace and kindness, etc. I don't think Constantine could have taken Christian teachings to heart if he behaved the way he did (like a Roman general). I think it could be used as an argument that he wasn't really Christian. Maybe it is POV, but I think it's worth stating (somehow) and I was stumped at how to do this. Apparently I didn't get it right. Brutannica 23:59, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Grown-up expectations about what proper Christian attitudes to warfare in the 4th century might entail are built upon documents leading up to the 4th century, as well as contemporary documents. Contemporary in this sense means contemporary with Constantine I. What you and I may think is "nice Christian behavior" is less interesting-- and quite irrelevant. Wetman 01:52, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'm skeptical about Christian endorsement (or whatever word you wish to use) of warfare before Constantine, especially since in the article itself it mentions soldiers thinking of the religion as "womanish" and military service as not an occupation for overt Christians. Unless someone else pipes in, I will remove the offending passage, however, since I don't want the fight to progress. Brutannica 05:19, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It's not about "winning." The legionaries' cults were solidly of Mithras and of Isis. Details in individual hagiographies may be doubtful, but there is a pattern in the vitae of highly mythologized "soldier saints" of the early (especially Eastern) church. The theme (Saint Sebastian e.g.) is that when they convert, their own soldiers turn on them and they are martyred. You must have read some of these. Women were the main financial support of the early Christian Church, donating properties, villas etc. "Womanish" wasn't just plucked out of the air. Wetman 05:49, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] The Portent

Current text is third-hand : "an omen — a fiery cross (or chi and rho) in the sky, with the inscription "By this sign shalt thou conquer" — " The inscription was IHS, interpreted as In Hoc Signo, I think. Can we get to the sources for this. Lactantius? --Wetman


[edit] "Historical Impossibility"?

"(The Memorial has been emended to address three emperors, Valentinian II (died 392), Theodosius I, and Arcadius (began to rule 395), a historical impossibility."

Actually the adress is probably to three Augusti. Arcadius was named co-ruler of his father and Augustus in January, 383 as per his own article. So the adress to the three Augusti could have been written anywhere between 383 and 392 . User: Dimadick

Check the article to make sure it reflects this, and if not edit boldly! --Wetman 19:55, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Not an expert on Constantine

I am by no means an expert on Constantine. But I do know enough to see a lot of this "stuff" comes from reading or copying one book by those who must think they are historians. It would be nice to see a list of sources. Where is some of this "stuff" coming from? You guys (A woman would be wise enough to stay out of this circus) are friggin' easy. Don't you question anything you read? This is a mess and boring as hell. Talk about FAITH! Nope, I ain't gonna fix it! Charlie 26 Apr 05 Oh, a word to the wise, people tend to believe the first things they read. Convictions are created quickly. The ancient past is remote, ill-documented and selective. Be cautious.

Umm...what specifically do you object to? john k 15:45, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Is that "one book" listed at References, for a start? --Wetman 16:15, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've added one at "Further Reading", at least it is a start. I didn't see anything listed as "References". The first chapter of Constantine warns about expecting to find "the truth" in the ancient world. An ancient historian strives for objectivity. The so-called "truth" is an educational guess at best. Things are lost, new things are discovered, and from what I have observed over the past 40 years things are happily blown out of proportion to construct comfortable quick answers. In reality as more "stuff" comes foreward the more confusing things become. Skeptics (if you can call them that) are just as bad or worse than the naive when they tread in the ancient world. I am not a professional ancient historian, but I've read enough works of professional historians to recognize gibberish. This entry is poor and gives selective quick answers. It just ain't that way. I love studying the ancient past. It deserves fairer treatment than this. If you are not in love with the ancients you shouldn't write about them. Especially when you know you are projecting the present. Charlie I'm outta here! 2 May 2005

Again, what specifically is your objection? You can't just say (at some length) that "this entry is poor" and then provide no actual details of problems with the article. john k 23:04, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

That said, the article is rather problematic - there's far too much concern with the history of Christianity in ways that don't relate to Constantine directly, to the exclusion of a detailed recounting of Constantine's life. Some of the statements also seem kind of dubious - for instance, that it was only the Donation of Constantine which made people think that Constantine became a Christian. Other parts seem to be from the opposite POV, as well. So, yeah, the article is problematic. Charlie hasn't been an especially useful critic, though. john k 23:11, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

I have clarifed a few things as best as I could (Pictures are always nice) and added "confusion and the unknown" where I think they belong. I love the mystery of not being able to "know" things from the ancient world and learning new things. 5 May 2005 Charlie

[edit] Any confirmation of vivid detail?

New text: He began giving his own sermons in the palace before his court and invited crowds. Exerting his absolute power, the army recited his composed passages, in an attempt to convert them to Christianity. The power and wealth of the clergy grew. They took over the courts and heard all civil suites. There was no appeal. The clergy enjoyed such benefits that restrictions to join them began in 329. Eusebius? Lactantius? Restrictions? Massed declamations? Juridical role for clergy? --Wetman 19:57, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Check Constantine-Ramsay MacMullen, Chapter 9, Nicaea. He does not point out his exact source per item, but I'll bet it is "The Life of Constantine" by Eusebius. (At least in the $40.00 range, lots and lots of pages) Since he identified this book in this chapter, though Lactantius and the Divine Institutes, what ever that is, are mentioned. MacMullen uses a lot of inscriptions too. Kazuba 16 May 2005. Tried to track the Eusebius book on line, but could only find where copies are located. Not many. Relax. The statements just before mine come from the same exact book and I didn't write them. Love those details. Kazuba/Charlie

17 May 05. Hello again Wetman, If I do not hear from you, or any one else today, tomorrow the 18th, I am going to replace what you edited out. (Gotta move on in this fascinating book). As you've taught me "Edit Boldly". Certainly it makes sense with the previous information we have on Constantine. He's got a big head and gone a bit over the edge. Remember this is ancient history. The Association of Ancient Historians says Ramsay MacMullen is the best! They are the experts, the pros; not me. I'm a just grunt who dabbles in ancient history.(Deception seems to be my cup of tea). This is not my field of expertise. I can no longer even read Latin. How about you? (Used to be pretty good at it 49 years ago: Amo, amas, amat, puella) Is there more faith in ancient history and the records of the past than religion? (Interesting the oral teachers of the ancient world did not trust written records. Isn't weird now we do not trust oral traditions. We prefer written ones. They're truer?.. Gulf of Tonkin Incident...Kazuba

If the source is MacMullen, cite him (MacMullen 19xx). --Wetman 15:18, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality of the page

This page is clearly pro-christian. It states that Constantine defeated a rival because he is christian, among pther things. We can argue about his christianity, but I think it's unfair to say that he defeated another general because he was christian and his rival were not.

      Constantine attributed his victory to Christianity. And it most likely helped him by uniting his soldiers and upping    there morale.

[edit] I have been misunderstood

It looks like I didn't get my meaning across here. That Constantine was the "Christian God's instrument" was supposed to be understood that this is "what was the popular view from the victorious people of Rome at this time in the 4th century". This distorted thought led to the extreme. (I think it is important to mention to non-Christians and to Constantine, in the beginning, the God of the Christians was just another God).

When armies meet each other, it is propagandized that the opposing army is demonic, as compared to your side. This is especially true in 4th century Rome.(and still today) Ancient people strongly took for granted there were supernatural powers, visions, hexes, miracles, sorcery, etc at work. Each side has their soothsayers. Each promotes the idea that God (or the Gods) is on their side. Each army thinks of themselves as the good guys. The winner of the battle seems to automatically assume they were victorious because the Gods (or the God) was on their side and this is emotionally supported by the populace. The loser had to be demonic.

By use of the imagination and turning the tables around, one could say The Nazis and the Japanese defeated the United States and its allies in World WarII because God was on their side. Pagans did not consider themselves as atheists they believed in the Gods. The Pagan Gods or the "Christian" God must surely be on the winning side. Demons on the losing side. This is drivle, but we know from the surviving writings of ancient Christians this was the popular believe in the Roman Empire about Constantine and this is what he believed of himself. If you can edit my material to convey what I think you know I'm driving at here in better words be my guest. I apologize for my ignorance. I'm only a grunt I try to do my best. I ain't no writer. User:Kazuba 12 Jun 05

Well, I tried to clarify things this morning. I am hoping you will remove your objection flag. (I guess you are the one who can do this. This stuff is still very new to me). It's your call. Thanks for not blowing my stuff away and giving me a chance to fix it. It is not easy for me to write. User:Kazuba 11 Jun 05

[edit] Removing Objections

I've removed my objections on the article. I read it again and although I have some minor objections in passages such as "where she (Helena) discovered the True Cross and established basilicas." I Think you sould add an "allegedly discovered" there.

But your article is really good and mostly fair, I was unjust to dispute it's neutrality. I should have only written down my disagreement in the discussion page before 'labeling' it as not neutral.

I'm sorry if I caused you any trouble. And I'm sorry for my bad english. I'm Brazilian :)

In my opinion, Constantine was not really christian, he was a roman of his time (they were very superstitious), who adopted parts of a foreign cult as romans always done. He gave religious freedom to all his subjects, but the christian church was very organized and quickly took control of the empire's government. After that, the 'religious freedom' they asked for was abolished and they persecuted pagans and forged the "Donation of Constantine" to support their claims.

[edit] Thanks Zamba

It looks just about everyone in the ancient world took miracles, visions, soothsaying, sorcery, and magic spells for granted. This is just the way people were. They didn't believe in these things. They KNEW they MUST be TRUE. They were people of their time and place. For the most part you couldn't tell a Christian from a Pagan. They merged together. We can only guess about them. Ancient history is remote and ill-documented. Thanks for saying hello. Make yourself a User and Talk page. Your english is great! Thanks for dropping the label. User:Kazuba 14 Jun 2005

[edit] Plague -> suspicion of literacy?

From the article:

A suspicion of literacy and higher learning which began at least a century before had grown. These may have been the results of the fear and high mortality rates caused by the first and second outbreak of the Antonine Plague (165 - 180 and 251 - 266 respectively).

I don't understand. Could someone elaborate on how this suspicion grew from the Antonine Plague?65.95.44.145 19:24, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bias Check

I'd like somebody to check that this article confirms to Wikipedia's NPOV policy. The section on his "Other Acheivements" seems to carry a particularly strong pro-Christian bias. Dewrad 19:50, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

I removed the diatribe called "Folly and betrayal of reason". It was visibly biased against Christianity and at many points obviously factually incorrect. Str1977 12:52, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Good call- commentary on anti-intellectual bias (or otherwise) of the times isn't really appropriate for an article about the life of Constantine. In addition, most anti-pagan discrimination was instituted during the reign of Theodosius rather than that of Constantine. Dewrad 14:40, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

The bias can work both ways. Some christians may whitewash certain historical occurrences unless challenged on it. There isn't just this big "anti-christian" bias out there, there's also a christian attempt to portray people like Constantine as noble, just, and virtuous people, and thus cover up or omit any evidence of religious intolerance and persecution against pagans by such people. Of course anyone who is Sainted is going to have his or her actions whitewashed in history. There's also often an attempt to portray people like Constantine (though maybe not Constantine himself) as the victims of persecution but to ignore when such people are actually the proponents of persecution. --Lucavix 11:28, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Just a few remarks:

Yes, bias can work both ways. However, what I removed was not IMHO quite biased (and the headline makes that all the more clear) but clearly, as Dewrad posted, off-topic in an article on Constantine.

Constantine is not considered a saint by the Catholic Church. (Saints' history need not be withwashed - no one is faultless, not even saints). Anyway there's not need to whitewash anything. Constantine had his virtues and his vices. All should (and are, IMHO) included. If he had persecuted pagans, it should be in there, if not, then not.

Unfortunately, the post-mortem persecution of historical persons does exist. There is not only whitewashing but also blackwashing. Str1977 11:11, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hanging

The User:68.41.141.167 posted on my talk page:

Why did you remove my details on crucifixion,{Date} hanging, burning at the stake and the shedding of blood and make things so general? Please reply in the discussion page for Constantine the Great.

He is referring to this edit: [1]

I reverted back to the previous wording "Crucifixion was abolished because of religious reasons, but was replaced with hanging, to show there was Roman law and justice."

For the benefit of 68.. and whomever it may concern, here are the concerns I had:

  • "Crucifixion, to exhibit there was Roman law and justice, was abolished ..." - this implies that the abolition was aimed at exhibiting that there was Roman law and justice. Is that what you wanted to say? If so, please provide some reference for that. I took the "Law and justice" passage in the previous version to say that though crucifixion was abolished, another (less gruesome) penalty replaced it to deter criminals by showing that "justice was done"
  • "...replaced with burning at the stake and hanging" - from what I know and have consistently heard about this, crucifixion was replaced by hanging. Other penalties are other issues. Do you have a reference for the "burning"? Was it a new penalty in 337? I never heard of that.
  • "Omitting the shedding of blood and any similarity to the death of the Christ became preferred by the religious." - this is poorly worded (especially the term "the religious"). However the gist was already in the previous wording "religious reasons". However, this can be made clearer, I will have a shot at it.

Str1977 17:37, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

68... (Gave up), I checked your link and found that burning was already in use in certain cases in the 1st century. And I can't see any similarities between burning and crucifixion - in contrast to hanging and crucifixion. Str1977 10:14, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Victoria

I moved the following stuff to the talk page. It is unclear what this has to do with the Emperor Constantine I, as this refers to events after his death.

After Constantine's death, when the Altar of Victory was desecrated and removed from its place of honorin the Senate House, the Senate deputized Symmachus, prefect of Rome, to appeal to the Emperor for its return. Symmachus publicly characterized the late Emperor Constantine's policy, in a plea for freedom of religion written between 383 and 392:
"[Constantine] diminished none of the privileges of the sacred virgins, he filled the priestly offices with nobles, he did not refuse the cost of the Roman ceremonies, and following the rejoicing Senate through all the streets of the eternal city, he contentedly beheld the shrines with unmoved countenance, he read the names of the gods inscribed on the pediments, he enquired about the origin of the temples, and expressed admiration for their builders. Although he himself followed another religion, he maintained its own for the empire, for everyone has his own customs, everyone his own rites. The divine mind has distributed different guardians and different cults to different cities. As souls are separately given to infants as they are born, so to peoples the genius of their destiny." (Possible Christian insertion in italics.)
—Medieval sourcebook: "The Memorial of Symmachus, prefect of the City".

Str1977 14:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted external links

The editor who deleted the following external links has made similar deletions at many other articles, including links to on-line text of many Early Christian writers:

Discussion of this behavior, which would have been routinely reverted as vandalism if it were from an anonymous IP, may be found at Talk:Papias. --Wetman 18:53, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Constantine the Greats Ethnicity

There are people who say Constantine the Great was Illyrian/Albanian, Greek/Anatolian, Ethnic Roman etc, Does anyone know or have any sources which can confirm what his ethnicity/s were? thanks E-mail adress 11:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear E-mail (a funny name, isn't it),
I don't have positive knowledge about ethnicity in the narrower sense. I think I read somewhere that :he or his father were Illyrian. Greek is another possibility, but I don't know how hard these borders :are. He certainly was a Roman by citizenship, but you are talking ethnicity. What is out of place is :modern terms like Albanian (yes, the Albanians derive themselves from the Illyrians, but that doesn't :make the Illyrians Albanians - just as Goths and Vandals were not Germans in the modern sense). Hope :that helps a bit. Str1977 11:52, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
All sources on both Constantine's father (Constantius I Chlorus) as well as his mother Helena are quite unreliable in this regard. Ethnicity is something the Later Romans did not care much about. On Constantius' origin, we don't know anything for sure. Generally, Illyria is assumed as his birthplace (i.e. some place in Illyria), though that assumption is mostly based on the fact that many high-ranking officers of the army (like his later Tetrarch colleagues) came from Pannonia or Illyricum. That doesn't say much about ethnicity, though, as "Illyria" in this context is a very broad term, and it's not unlikely that Constantius' father was a soldier as well, and could come from any part of the Empire. That Constantius descended from the emperor Claudius Gothicus, is a later fabrication of his son.
Helena is usually said to having been born in Drepanum near Nikomedeia. I've no idea what that would say about her ethnic origin.
Generally, we face two difficulties: Both of his parents come from a social background which was prone to be forgotten or omitted by ancient sources. Second: in a multi-ethnic society like that of Late Rome, ethnicity was not very important.
Conclusion: We simply have no idea.
Not that it would matter much if we knew. Varana 22:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, he was obviously a Roman citizen born in southern Serbia, Nis (or Naissus in Greek) which was part of a broad area called Illycirum (an administrative area much larger than what was considered 'ethnic Illyria'. He was son of Constantius who is thought top be a general of Greek origin and grandson of Prokopios (a very Greek name). His mother Eleni (St Helena) was from a village near Nicomedeia (Izmit) and obviously a Greek speaker. So yes, Constantine's ethnicity was at the very least part Greek.00

[edit] "Anti-Semitic"

Dear Humus, no, no offense, but I have to disagree with lumping together various laws under the "anti-Semitic" label, as well as dividing these laws into a simplistic "positive" vs. "negative" (or "good" vs. "bad" dichotomy). This doesn't work in regard to the slave circumcision law, as I explained in my edit summary. Also, the separation of Easter and Passover has nothing anti-Semitic about it, though Constantine doesn't mince his words in his letter. Str1977 (smile back) 10:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

It is not what I meant, but fine, no dichotomy. Since Jerusalem issue is not related to the rest of the sentence, I took the liberty to remove "but" and separate it into a new line. For the rest, please see Talk:First Council of Nicaea#Antisemitism. ←Humus sapiens ну? 02:30, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Anti-semitic is an inappropriate term for the ancient world, I think. Personally, I would prefer to avoid it for discussion of anti-Jewish actions prior to the development of racial anti-semitism in the 19th century. But at the very least we should be careful about using "anti-Semitism" as synonymous with "anti-Jewish" when discussing the Emperor of an ancient state which included millions of Aramaic- and Arabic- speakers who were not Jewish. john k 06:31, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

John, please check 1) the definition of Anti-Semitism, 2) his speech (a fragment is in the article) and 3) the discussion at Talk:First Council of Nicaea#Antisemitism where even those who dispute that the decisions taken during that particular council's were antisemitic, don't have a problem conceding that Constantine was an antisemite. Language of the subjects have nothing to do with this. This is about Christianity distinguishing itself from Judaism and other "heresies" and becoming the official state religion. ←Humus sapiens ну? 06:53, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I just realized why you could write "Aramaic- and Arabic- speakers". It is a common mistake, see Anti-Semitism#Etymology and usage. Cheers. ←Humus sapiens ну? 07:12, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Anti-semitic is certainly an inappropriate term prior to Wilhelm Marr, but Humus didn't isert it into the text, naming the link to "anti-Semitism" differently. However, to call all these laws anti-Semitic is not accurate. And even the letter on the easter date, despite some harsh words, is IMHO not really anti-Semitic - it merely points out religious differences and advocates separation. Str1977 (smile back) 08:01, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I hope you are not saying that since Marr came up with the term (really a misnomer that stuck) in the 19th century, the phenomenon did not exist prior to that. As for "religious differences", it seems Constantine had more political than religious agenda, but his motives for hatred do not matter. Please see the definition of the term and the history of the phenomenon. ←Humus sapiens ну? 08:46, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
What I am saying is that AS can properly only used for a phenomenon originating in the 19th century ("racial" hatred of Jews) and for which Marr coined the term AS to distinguish it from older, non-"racial" hatred of Jews. Now, unfortunately, people are sloppy and talk about AS in regard to that earlier hatred of Jews. WP reflects that sloppy usage and hence there is one article on AS which encompasses other hatred of Jews as well. I accept that usage, although it's wrong, but I advocate using better, more accurate terms in specific instances, e.g. not saying AS in regard to Constantine. I think you agree since you your link to the AS article was called "anti-Jewish". (PS. Believe me, I am well informed about the history of the term.) So much for the terminology issue.
However, I reject lumping all these laws together under "anti-Jewish" - an encyclopedia should be more than name calling.
Regardless of C's motivations (and I cannot see how his actions make sense without a shred of religious motive), what he stated in his letter was that Christians should not rely on Jews to determine the date of their supreme festival, because they were 'spritually blind' and also 'responsible for the crucificion' (and the latter bit is the only remotely anti-Jewish part of all this).
Finally, your adding a link to a supposed main article is wrong. If we had an article called "Constantine and the Jews" it would be the correct main article for this section. We do not have such an article since the topic is probably to small to merit an article. Anyway, currently it doesn't exist so we cannot link to it. "Christianity and anti-Semitism" is certainly not a suitable replacement, as it encompasses much more than Constantine (Christianity), as it didn't even contain Constantine until you included him (in an unsuitable section) and since it, according to the title covers only the negative part of a relationship that has both positive and negative elements and runs both ways. Str1977 (smile back) 09:07, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Str, you might be surprised but I agree with you on most points. Unfortunately we are stuck with imprecise human language. If you think that {{seealso}} is better than {{main}} in this case, I won't object. Thanks.←Humus sapiens ну? 09:20, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
My intention in to improve WP not ruin C's reputation and I have no intention to pursue this further. ←Humus sapiens ну? 09:31, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the 13th Apostle

Why is there no mention in this article that Constantine is called the 13th Apostle in the Greek Orthodox Church[2] [3] [4]?

Another reference: Orthodox Church in America "He is called "the Great," for he was a zealous champion for the purity of Orthodoxy. In the Sixth Ode of the Canon for today's Feast, he is referred to as "the thirteenth Apostle." XXX

You don't need to provide more referenes - it is already included. Str1977 (smile back) 09:01, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Cool, for the heck of it, here's another one: Schaff's History of the Christian Church: "Soon after his death, Eusebius set him above the greatest princes of all times; from the fifth century he began to be recognized in the East as a saint; and the Greek and Russian church to this day celebrates his memory under the extravagant title of "Isapostolos," the "Equal of the apostles."55 The Latin church, on the contrary, with truer tact, has never placed him among the saints, but has been content with naming him "the Great," in just and grateful remembrance of his services to the cause of Christianity and civilization." Note 55: "Comp the Acta Sact. ad 21 Maii, p. 13 sq. Niebuhr justly remarks: "When certain oriental writers call Constantine " equal to the Apostles,’ they do not know what they are saying; and to speak of him as a ’saint’ is a profanation of the word."

By the way, there is absolutely nothing in the current article about Constantine being called the Thirteenth Apostle. There certainly should be. Also it should be mentioned that he is in the list of Equal-to-apostles. XXX

1. Could you please sign your posts. 2. I reverted my accidental self-revert and also included isapostolos. I hope this settles the matter. Str1977 (smile back) 12:27, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Constantine a Catholic Saint

I have edited the article to note that Saint Constantine the Great is a saint in the Catholic Church as well.

All the Catholic Churches of the Byzantine Rite celebrate his feast on May 21, just as the Eastern Orthodox do.

In Catholicism, a man is considered a saint of the Church if he appears on any of the calendars of the 23 autonomous ritual Churches which make up the Catholic communion.

Source?--Panairjdde 10:57, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Interesting, I'm not sure if he is a Catholic saint or not. This link lists him: http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=2731 St. Constantine the Great Feastday: May 21 337 Junior Emperor and emperor called the “Thirteenth Apostle” in the East. The son of Constantius I Chlorus, junior emperor and St. Helena, Constantine was raised on the court of co-Emperor Diocletian. ...

Another reference: http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Aug1997/wiseman.asp#F2 Can you tell me how many saints there are? That is a difficult question to answer. In the first eight or nine centuries there was no formal process of canonization. ... It was not until 993 that the first official canonization took place. It was then that Pope John XV declared Bishop Ulrich of Augsburg a saint. The original edition of Butler’s Lives of the Saints, published between 1756 and 1759, had 1,486 entries. The 1956 revision contained 2,565. Butler’s Lives is now undergoing another revision. Since not all the new volumes have yet been published, I cannot tell you how many biographies or saints will be listed.

Acta Sanctorum

If I'm reading Schaff correctly, as cited above http://ccel.org/s/schaff/history/3_ch01.htm , Note 55: "Comp the Acta Sact. ad 21 Maii, p. 13 sq. Niebuhr justly remarks: "When certain oriental writers call Constantine " equal to the Apostles,’ they do not know what they are saying; and to speak of him as a ’saint’ is a profanation of the word."" I read this to say that Constantine is listed in the Acta Sanctorum, under 21 May, page 13. Mr. Niebuhr, Barthold Georg Niebuhr?, a protestant?, strongly objects to the listing.

Like I told you all, Constantine is not listed in the Roman Calendar; he is, however, in the calendar of the various Eastern Catholic Churches of the Byzantine rite. For just one example, here is the liturgical calendar, containing every day's saints, for the Melkite Catholic Church: http://www.melkite.org/menaion.htm

Under May 21: "Commemoration of the Holy and Glorious Sovereigns, the Equals of the Apostles Constantine and Helena"

I also have in my personal posession official liturgical prayer books of the Byzantine Catholic Church in America and the Ukranian Catholic Church. These all have commemorations of Saint Constantine the Great on May 21, with the exact same prayers used by Eastern Orthodox. —This unsigned comment was added by DominvsVobiscvm (talk • contribs) .

You failed providing a reference for this. The Catholic Encyclopedia does not consider him a saint. Neither the Roman Catholic Church makes any reference to Saint Constantine. Up until you provide a reference, this will be removed. Adn sign your edits. --Panairjdde 14:02, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I *did* provide documentation, from the official website of the Melkite Catholic Eparchy of Newton! (See my comments above!) Check here again under May 21: http://www.melkite.org/menaion.htm. The online Catholic Encyclopedia is silent on this matter, and in any event when discussing liturgical matters it does so from the perspective of Latin Catholicism; I already stated that Constantine is not listed on the Roman calendar. BUT THIS IS NOT THE ONLY SANCTORAL CALENDAR USED BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, as is demonstrated by the above link to the Melkites. For another source, I'd direct you to this expert-answered question from EWTN: http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=311200&Forums=25&Experts=0&Days=2002&Author=&Keyword=Constantine&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=1&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=
Constantine *is* a Catholic saint, venerated publicly as such by all 15 Catholic Churches of the Byzantine Rite.
DominvsVobiscvm 09:37, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
In other words, you wrote that he is a saint for Catholic Christians, forgetting to put a note in which you had to wrote that the vast majority of Catholic Christians does not consider him a saint. Thank for your contribution.--Panairjdde 15:21, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I thought the question was about the *Roman Catholic Church*. Is there any evidence for a *Roman Catholic Saint*? If the Melkite Greek Catholic Church and other certain eastern church's recognizes him, then perhaps that should be clarified in the article, rather than generalizing. -- Stbalbach 15:27, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
You guys still don't get it. When a person is accorded placement in any of the official sanctoral calendars of the Catholic Church, he/she is a Catholic saint. Period. Public liturgical veneration is limited to the autonomous ritual Church(es) which have a public cultus of the saint, but the saint himself is a Catholic saint. No qualification is needed, unless one if referring specifically to liturgical veneration. No one would say, for example, that Catherine of Siena, Maximillian Kolbe, Ignatius Loyola, and others were saints "to most Catholics" or "to some Catholics". They are Catholic saints--Period.--despite the fact that they do not receive liturgical veneration among the Eastern Catholic Churches (They are Latin-rite saints).DominvsVobiscvm 19:29, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
You contradict yourself. You say that if any Catholic Church says a person is a saint, than he is a saint. But you say that Catholic Encyclopedia "in any event when discussing liturgical matters it [CE] does so from the perspective of Latin Catholicism," and CE does not consider him a saint. On the other side, you say "that Catherine of Siena, Maximillian Kolbe, Ignatius Loyola [...] are Catholic saints--Period.", but that they are not venerated in the Eastern Catholic Churches. Furthermore, I know (I know) that in Roman Catholic Church a Saint must be recognized either by tradition or officially, and you did not provide any reference that Constantine is a traditional or official saint of the Roman Catholic Church. As regards Eastern vs. Latin Catholicism, I respect everyone, but a reference to Catholic Church is almost universally meant as a reference to Roman Catholic Church (and infact the first article is redirected to the second), so we should use the words in the commonest way, and specify what is what, distinguishing between the two rites. --Panairjdde 16:55, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
There is no contradiction. As I noted, the old Catholic Encyclopedia is silent on the matter, and was written at a time when mainstream Catholic respect for the Church's Eastern heritage was at a low ebb. As well, the Catholic Encyclopedia is not an official document of the Church; the various sanctoral calendars *are* official. As well, the phrase "Roman Catholic Church" often does refer to the Catholic Church as a whole, insomuch as the phrase is defined as "any Christian in communion with the Pope of Rome." This is, in fact, the sense in which the artice "Roman Catholic Church" treats the subject. Hence, Constantine is a Catholic saint and no qualification is nedded unless one is referring to public liturgical veneration.DominvsVobiscvm 18:34, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Again, you are saying that Constantine is not an official saint of the Roman Catholic Church. And Constantine is not a Roman Catholic Saint! The fact that is not nominated anywhere in official Roman Catholic Church documents can't be used as a sign that he is a saint! Get real! You want to say he is a saint for the Melkite Catholic Church, so say it, but you did not provide any reference he actually is for the most prominent Catholic Church, the Roman one. If you keep failing in providing this reference, I'll remove the reference from the article, this thing has been going for too long.--Panairjdde 23:07, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Sigh* If we define "Roman Catholic Church" as "that Church composed of all Christians in communion with the Pope of Rome," then yes, Constantine is a Roman Catholic Saint. If we are referring to the "Latin Church," then no, Constantine is not a saint of the Latin Church, although he is a saint of the Catholic Church.DominvsVobiscvm 03:59, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I already posted this, but seems like it bears repeating:

One Roman Catholic source:

http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Aug1997/wiseman.asp#F2

"Can you tell me how many saints there are? That is a difficult question to answer. In the first eight or nine centuries there was no formal process of canonization. ... It was not until 993 that the first official canonization took place. It was then that Pope John XV declared Bishop Ulrich of Augsburg a saint. The original edition of Butler’s Lives of the Saints, published between 1756 and 1759, had 1,486 entries. The 1956 revision contained 2,565. Butler’s Lives is now undergoing another revision. Since not all the new volumes have yet been published, I cannot tell you how many biographies or saints will be listed."

So, there is no official definition for saints who existed before the ninth century, other than perhaps Alban Butler's Lives of the Saints which is based on the Acta Sanctorum. According to Schaff's Church History, Constantine is in there, under May 21, page 13.

Also, a second Roman Catholic source:

http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=2731

"St. Constantine the Great Feastday: May 21 337 Junior Emperor and emperor called the “Thirteenth Apostle” in the East. The son of Constantius I Chlorus, junior emperor and St. Helena, Constantine was raised on the court of co-Emperor Diocletian. ... Constantine was the most dominating figure of his lifetime, towering over his contemporaries, including Pope Sylvester I. He presided over the Council of Nicaea, gave extensive grants of land and property to the Church, founded the Christian city of Constantinople to serve as his new capital, and undertook a long-sighted program of Christianization for the whole of the Roman Empire. While he was baptized a Christian only on his deathbed, Constantine nevertheless was a genuinely important figure in Christian history and was revered as a saint, especially in the Eastern Church."

You might also want to have this same discussion for Justinian I and Theodora (6th century), to name two who have appeared on my watchlist (and probably all the others DominusVobiscum has edited). Adam Bishop 02:43, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No mention in article of Church of the Holy Apostles

Why is there no mention in this article of the Church of the Holy Apostles?

Just add it.--Panairjdde 16:55, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Info box

Why not use this info box?

Saint Constantine the Great
Head of Constantine's colossal statue at Musei Capitolini
Head of Constantine's colossal statue at Musei Capitolini
Titles Isapostolos, 13th Apostle
Born Feb 27, 272 in Niš
Died May 22, 337 in Nicomedia
Venerated in Orthodox Christianity
Major shrine Church of the Holy Apostles
Feast May 21
Attributes Edict of Milan, First Council of Nicaea, Labarum, In hoc signo vinces
A short hymn or prayer

associated with the saint
Its source (author's name, title of the prayer book, or at least the denomination)
I see you already used it. According to me, this box is too big in comparison with the information it carries. Constantine is most of all a Roman Emperor; such a big box on one of his side aspects is non suitable. I vote for removal.--Panairjdde 16:55, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Side aspect? XXX

I agree with Panairjdde. (self-professed) Str1977 (smile back) 19:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I copied the complete infobox to Constantine I and Christianity, surely it is not a side aspect there? XXX

So why you did not leave it there? If look at all the articles which link to this, and tell me which percentage of tham has any reference to his sainthood and which to his being Roman Emperor. And, please, sign your comments.--Panairjdde 23:07, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I like info-box set also. It has my vote. -- ~Mallaccaos, 7 April 2006

[edit] Debate: Ethnic Origins of Constantine The Greats Mother Helena

There is some discussion about the ethnicity of Constantine the Greats mother Helena_of_Constantinople at Talk:Helena_of_Constantinople, if anyone has thoughts E-mail adress 14:26, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sassanid comment

Beyond the Eastern limes of the Euphrates, the Sassanid Empire reacted to the Roman edicts of toleration by persecuting Christians, whom they considered as allies of Persia's ancient enemy, Rome.[1]

Freya Stark was a travel writer, this subjective claim has been stated to look like as an objective fact. Therefore I have moved it here for discussion and making the sentence less POV. Anyone care to comment? Thanks, --- K a s h Talk | email 17:45, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Constantine's Faith

"Historians since Lactantius have adhered to the view that Constantine "adopted" Christianity as a kind of replacement for the official Roman polytheism."

This is unclear except in one aspect, it is wrong in several aspects. Constantine was not a polytheist, but like his father a follower of the monothesitic cult of the Sun-God. So Christianity did not replace official polytheism for him. Nor did he do any replacing for the Empire, Constantine's influence for Christianity was financial with a few laws going the church's way, but it would be more than 4 decades after his death before Christianity was made the state religion, and a further 12 years before public acts of official polytheism was banned. Finally, if there is one thing that history teaches about historians it is that they seldom agree on anything! MnJWalker 00:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This page's current writing style needs significant improvements

The text, at times, is repetitive, monotonous and lacks flow. Please jump in and help clean it up. Thank you 198.202.68.44L

Perhaps you could indicate precisely which passages you find objectionable.Ociolek 10:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation needed for image caption

I'm sorry if it appears pedantic, but one of my pet hates is use of the term "contemporary" in an ambiguous context. I believe that this usage makes it unclear whether the picture of the sculpture with caption "Contemporary bronze head of Constantine" means that it is contemporaneous with Constantine, or with us, in the present. If the latter (which I assume it is), I reckon it should be 'modern bronze head'. Ociolek 10:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

What is meant is that the head is from the times of Constantine himself, not a later representation. It is definitely not "modern". ("Modern" is the statue in York.) Therefore, the first meaning is correct: the brontze head is contemporaneous with Constantine.
How would you express that in English? Varana 16:55, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
You are quite correct
in English, a "contemporary" portrait is one "contemporaneous" with the subject. Perhaps "contemporaneous" would better please Ociolek. --Wetman 17:52, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Two competing statements! Needs clarity

I realise these two statements MAY function together, but to have them at completely different points in the page seems wrong. I won't change anything as I don't know enough, however:

End of introduction states:

"although there has been debate over the veracity of his faith because he was baptized only on his death bed."

Constantines Life and Actions following Edict of Milan:

"Constantine, following a widespread custom, was not baptized until close to his death in 337"

Is the fact that there is a debate on how religious he was, which is based on him being baptised at his death - relevent, given the fact that it was customary to do so? As I understand it, this was customary as people were then 'cleansed' of their 'sins' before dying, and so were able to 'sin' whilst alive. Mentioning this debate seems to skew the interpretation of Constantine as this debate is not countered with evidence that clearly counters it, and that evidence is therefore relevent within the context of that debate. Mononen 01:32, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

This does not fully represent the debate; the major thrust of the skeptics is that Constantine's policies were ambiguous; which is succeeded by the following dialogue:
  • "But he was a baptized Christian".
  • "Yes, on his deathbead."
  • "As was often done."
  • "And often not done."

and so on. Septentrionalis 16:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


Mononen, I agree with you as would most historians, but there is a politically and religiously motivated minority that want to make a big thing out of the death-bed baptism. The original intro took the radical view that Constantine was not a Christian, but allowed others to be Christians. I edited the current intro but left the bit about the debate out of deference to the original (previous) intro author. MnJWalker 22:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. Haukur 10:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Constantine I (emperor) → Constantine I (emperor) – By far the most important "Constantine I" is the Roman Emperor.

[edit] Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

I support a move to Constantine I, but not Constantine, since he is clearly the most famous "Constantine I", but there are too many "Constantine" to claim that article. Panairjdde

Which Constantine is as notable as this one? Septentrionalis 17:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you, but is such a widely used name, that it would be too much to ask for a direct link. Even Julius Caesar is the most famous Caesar, but the latter article does not link to the first.--Panairjdde 17:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Caesar is a special case; Constantine isn't a title. (Or am I forgetting something? A real question, there's something at the back of my mind.) Septentrionalis 15:44, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
This should follow the NC case of Pericles and Nero, but with the ordinal, as there are other Constantines who were his successors in this empire. Shilkanni 20:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

If this for any reason need any longer name than Constantine I, it could be Emperor Constantine I, so we do not need those irritating parentheseses. Shilkanni 20:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Baptism at death

I've read in a number of places that people were not baptized until near death during the period as a matter of course - where I read, and why this was done, I forget so, I will have to come across it again sometime. It doesn't matter so much in the article, but an explanation why he waited till his death to be baptized is an open question in the article. -- Stbalbach 22:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

New Entry: From what I've learned, Constantine's aspiration was to be baptised in the River Jordan where John the Baptist, according to the New Testament, had baptised Jesus. But because this remained a hope of Constantine's he was never baptised otherwise until just before his death, when it became apparent he would not be able to reach his goal. The fact that he wasn't baptised until just before his death is not a reason to question his faith. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.35.160.43 (talk • contribs) .

Interesting. I would be curious/cautious of the source of that explanation. A common strategy for delaying baptism was so that you could continue to sin without breaking an oath to God (or under the control of more earthly clergy), baptised on your death-bed, and thus enter heaven sin-free. -- Stbalbach 01:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
It is not about being sin-free (in the Pelagian sense of that term), but avoiding the "sin against the Holy Spirit" which according to Gospels was unforgiveable. It is likely that Constantine regarded warfare as a sin against the Holy Spirit, and at the point of his final illness he was about to lead yet another military campaign. MnJWalker 17:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Did Constantine convert?

The question requires a definition of "conversion". Does it count if you accept Jesus as one of many authoritative Gods? Clearly Constantine supported Christianity during his reign. But he also supported other religions and worshipped other gods. In fact, he appeared as the earthly form of the god "Sol Invictus" many times including the Nicean Council. So this does not seem like conversion in the ordinary sense that Christianity describes it. What about his baptism? Was that a conversion?

The idea of his baptism comes almost exclusively from one source -- Vita Constantine, credited to Eusebius of Cesaria. Eusebius was appointed by and owed his position and life to Constantine and he wrote Vita Constantine as a Eulogy. The standard technique of the time was to expand and build the reputation of the deceased, not describe the "truth" of what happened. Of Eusebius, a charitable description is that "he was not a great historian". Jakob Burckhardt goes further and says that Eusebius was "“the first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity" and "the most objectionable of all eulogists who has utterly falsified his [i.e. Constantine's] image."

Did any other sources validate Eusebius' story? A book reviewed on the internet: Il battesimo di Costantino il Grande. by Marilena Amerise, describes the accounts of a number of people (Christians such as Jerome, Ambrose, Rufinus, Sulpicius Severus, Socrates, Sozomen, and Theodoret) who wrote about the death of Constantine and DID NOT MENTION the Baptism. Two theories are presented for this: 1) that it was not a very important event (hard to imagine that), or 2) that people wanted to hide the fact that it was an Arian who baptised him (more plausible but not sufficient to create a general silence -- after all, what of the arians?). A third theory would be: It did not happen as described and the apologist Eusebius was not fully honest in his description.

Thus, we have only ONE, highly biased source for this baptism that is not agreed with by other contemporary accounts. This does not meet the wikipedia standards for validated and unbiased sources, particularly since other sources could have (and had motive) to agree with the account and did not. I would be delighted to know of any other contemporary, confirming accounts. I do not believe ANY exist.

Meanwhile, another possibility behind the widely accepted tradition of Constantine's baptism is that Constantine was sprinkled while insensible and his sycophantic admirer, Eusebius, words put in his mouth to make the transition for the state-religion system more secure. --Blue Tie 23:55, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

This is an important issue, a reader would expect to find somethig regarding the matter in this article. Simply deleting it is not a good way to write an article.--BlaiseMuhaddib 02:42, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I dont think it was ever deleted. It is not something that is widely recognized as an issue. But I think it is one. I also think substantial questions exist regarding the true nature of his Christianity and his Conversion. --Blue Tie 06:57, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I looked at your edits and saw how you simply removed a category: I think that is the last thing to do. Instead, it should be pointed out somewhere that Eusebius is the only source to claim his baptism, if this is true.
I do not like the edit summary of DominusVobiscum. "Look in any encyclopedia" is not the right answer to a request for sources. Even if every single historian agrees on his baptism, nobody has the right to erase the information that this fact is reported only by one ancient source (and a surely biased one) among all those dealing with this emperor.--BlaiseMuhaddib 12:08, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I do not know how to implement your suggestion that "it should be pointed out somewhere that Eusebius is the only source to claim his baptism" with regard to categories. Categories are binary. They are either certainly true or they are not certainly true. There is no discussion area regarding them. In my view, if something is not certainly true, then the category does not apply. I do not think this is a matter of preponderance of the evidence but rather a matter of no significant reason to doubt it. But in this case, there is a reason to doubt it.
I am certainly open to other suggestions, but I do not know how to make a "compromise" work with regard to categories. I would not really like a category that is "People who MIGHT have converted". :-) What do you think is the right way to handle something binary like a category where the evidence is questionable? --Blue Tie 23:00, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps start a new section that outlines the various POV, since there appear to be multiple POV's. I think it would be really interesting to learn more about the pros and cons of thehttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Constantine_I&action=edit&section=34 conversion question. -- Stbalbach 13:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

From Noel Lenski's introduction to "The Cambridge Companion to the Age of Constantine": Above all, there lingers the monumental question of Constantine’s conversion, the “Constantinian question” par excellence. How many divine visions did he have leading up to his conversion: one, two, perhaps more? When precisely did he convert? Did he ever really convert? Scholars continue to argue these questions fiercely, yet opinion on all of them remains divided. Though general consensus has developed around some, none has been definitively solved and many remain wide open. ... (Discussion of how Constantine went both ways)... Constantine seems deliberately to have projected ambiguity, deliberately to have kept people guessing.... Eusebius’s Life of Constantine, written shortly after his death, already presents so tendentious a picture in favor of Constantine that it has often been dubbed a tissue of lies or an outright forgery. ... No matter how hard the student of Constantine struggles, it is nearly impossible to avoid getting caught in the snares of the “Constantinian question,” the question of conversion and faith." --Blue Tie 23:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I happen to be a fan of the Cambridge Companion series, seems pretty unambiguous, this is a serious question among scholars. -- Stbalbach 02:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Vote for keeping the category. Categories are, afaik, for finding things on that topic more quickly. Debates over details belong to the respective article. It would be nice to know, though, by which criteria the category decides who is a Christian. (This is in a similar direction as Stbalbach's question of what exactly "conversion" means here. This is imho a more important question than whether his baptism actually took place.)
Constantine's baptism is, from my impression, usually believed to be true. It is generally accepted that his Christianity was somewhat un-orthodox, compared to what dogma held at the time, but in the context of his actions in his later years, his grave (St Apostle's in Cpl.), etc., there is no real reason to doubt the baptism.
On Eusebius, I would not overly rely on what Burckhardt said on him. There has been a lot of research on Eusebius' work after him, including his bias, his method of working, his sources, etc. Newer scholarship usually doesn't echo the harsh verdict (though still remaining critical of Eusebius). Burckhardt is very interesting to read, but he isn't exactly new.
Later sources: Socrates (I, 39), Sozomen (II, 34) and Theodoret (I, 30) do record the baptism on his deathbed; they only do not name the Arian bishop of Nicomedia, Eusebius (neither does Eusebius of Caesarea in his Life of Constantine). That information is from Jerome's Chronicon (ad a. 337), who says that Constantine, by being baptized by Eusebius, "fell into Arianism" at the end of his life. Varana 13:45, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


Your notion that it is a tool for finding things on a topic is a compelling argument. Also, the question of what constitutes conversion is also a key issue. Both excellent points.
Frankly I do not doubt that he was baptized but what I have doubts about is the story of his baptism. What are the correct circumstances? Was he fully alert when baptized? Was it a matter of sprinkling a man who was prostrate in his bed? This gets to conversion. Did Constantine convert?
You are right about Socrates. So, that book quoted was not correct or not quoted correctly. Nevertheless, Socrates was not the best historian of Constantine. He claims Constantine went to war over Christianity with Licinius and that Constantine erradicated paganism. This is all nonsense.
Sozomen is a more careful redactor. I always get the impression that he is trying hard to get every detail in. He also appears to rely upon Eusebius -- relating the same details and nothing new.
Theodoret relates less. The point made regarding the book by Marilena Amerise is damaged in the list given. Yet the problem remains. Only Theodoret gives so few details that his source cannot be determined but the other two are clearly relying upon Eusebius. As far as Constantines later actions proving him to be a Convert... well, he retained his title as Pontif Maximus, he continued to mint coins honoring pagan deities, after his supposed conversion he continued to honor Sol Invictus and created Sunday in the honor of the Sun God, (not in honor of Jesus). As Will Durrant says: "He continued to use vague monotheistic language that any pagan could accept. During the earlier years of his supremacy he carried out patiently the ceremonial required of him as Pontifex maximus of the traditional [heathen] cult; he restored pagan temples, and ordered the taking of the auspices [by examining livers of freshly-killed animals]. He used pagan as well as Christian rites in dedicating Constantinople. He used pagan magic formulas to protect crops and heal disease."-- Caesar and Christ, page 656--Blue Tie 07:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
You're right to point out, of course, that the three church historians most probably draw (directly or indirectly) on Eusebius; I only wanted to correct that they don't report the baptism. (The book of Amerise doesn't state that, neither, so it's probably a mistake of the recension.)
Unfortunately, we don't have many contemporaneous sources on Constantine's later years apart from Eusebius, so we're forced to stick with him. Additionally, the Nicomedian baptism is rather soon eclipsed by the legend of Silvester baptizing Constantine in Rome.
Eusebius (of course) relates the baptism as a conscious decision of the emperor, with the obvious goal of providing a worthy end to the career of his Christian emperor. What remains is whether we gain something by doubting that story, which depends on what we think about C's religious beliefs in general... I'll try to rephrase the baptism paragraph to reflect that only Eusebius has a detailed account of the event; let me know what you think.
On Constantine's Christianity: Part of the problem is, imo, that we tend to present Christians and non-Christians as clearly opposed parties without a middle ground - which doesn't do justice to Late Antique reality. Obviously, there was a large area (even in matters of religion) where Christians and "Pagans" could meet, shared similar or identical opinions or had found a compromise that allowed them to co-exist quite peacefully and normally. Especially the Sun provided imagery, language conventions and religious concepts acceptable to both "parties".
Constantine started out as a follower of the Sun God, probably with already mono- or henotheistic convictions. A gradual development of his adherence to the Christian God can be expected; how far that "conversion" actually went, would be another question: there's no need to assume that he adopted all of the tenets of orthodox Christian dogma, much less that he put them into practice in what he did as a ruler. After all, he still was emperor of all Romans, Christians and Pagans alike. Accordingly, many of his actions and "official" statements (coins, inscriptions, etc.) show a gradual adoption of Christianity and an effort to stay within the framework of mutually acceptable language and imagery. While Sol was featured prominently in his earlier years (which can also mean that he saw Sol and the Christian God as one), he slowly dropped him from official documents, esp. after 324. (After 326, Sol doesn't appear on coins anymore and is replaced by symbolic personifications like Victoria etc. Constantine dropped the solar invictus epithet in favour of victor. He starts his program of state-sponsored church building about the same time, e.g. with St Peter's in Rome. The Labarum is made prominent. He presided at Nicaea; and so on.)
In general, I think that we create more problems by making him non-Christian in his later years than we solve. However, some pecularities of his "Christianity" need mentioning, esp. his rather traditional Roman approach at his new religion: He obviously had little qualms of seeing himself as divine, which was alien to orthodox Christianity, but normal for a Pagan; he venerated the Christian God as his personal benefactor, and only later realized (and only partially put into effect) Christian dogma; he never really tried to suppress paganism in any way. In this light, I see no compelling reason to doubt that he consciously chose baptism at the end of his life; that remains, however, far from proven.
Regarding newer literature, I currently have only access to mostly German books; esp. Brandt; I don't know how useful references to those are for you... Varana 17:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


Actually you Germans have all the best books on this sort of stuff. I know a bit of German but I have to slug my way through it. And some really cool works are only found in German not in English.

[edit] Contributions and Changes to Christianity

As far as I can tell, neither this article nor the subarticle of Constantine and Christianity discuss how Christianity was changed by Constantine. --Blue Tie 13:34, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe this is because this article is attempting to be serious and accurate. Str1977 (smile back) 22:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Go ahead and edit if you have reliable sources. Check this out as one source. It's a written by a Chicago Reference Librian. http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mheretic.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jerdwyer (talk • contribs) 18:40, 3 September 2006.
I don't think Blue Tie meant *that* by his comment... ;) Varana 20:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC) (*sigh*; sometimes I should get to write article text and not discussion pages...)

[edit] Infant Baptism footnote?

the current text of note 5 reads:

In this period infant baptism had not yet become a matter of routine in the west (although many were, it was initially only done in times of emergency, and it was seen more as a promise of future submission to Christianity than a deliberate choice to be Christian). Adults who voluntarily submitted to baptism made a clear statement of their beliefs placing them safely among the redeemed. Some waited to old age or death for various reasons, creating tensions between Churchmen who encouraged their audience to submit and those who waivered. See Thomas M. Finn (1992), Early Christian Baptism and the Catechumenate: East and West Syria. See also Philip Rousseau (1999). "Baptism", in Late Antiquity: A Guide to the Post Classical World, ed. Peter Brown.

Clearly, I need to hunt down these sources. However, the Canons of Hippolytus (Rome, 210) state the following:

At the hour in which the cock crows, they shall first pray over the water. When they come to the water, the water shall be pure and flowing, that is, the water of a spring or a flowing body ofwater. Then they shall take off all their clothes. The children shall be baptized first. All of the children who can answer for themselves, let them answer. If there are any children who cannot answer for themselves, let their parents answer for them, or someone else from their family. After this, the men will be baptized. Finally, the women, after they have unbound their hair, and removed their jewelry. No one shall take any foreign object with themselves down into the water.

That Hippolytus was bishop of Rome should speak to the prevelance of infant baptism by at least the early third century.

In light of this, I find the footnote questionable. Anyone care to comment? jrcagle 19:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually Hippolytus was not bishop of Rome, but he is nonetheless a high authority. Maybe the note should be stripped down to saying the infant baptism was not universal. Why the West is singled out I don't know since a) Constantine was baptized in the East b) there are several famous cases of adult baptisms in Christian families in the East as well, e.g. Saint Basilius. Str1977 (smile back) 20:07, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I wrote the footnote (kinda forced into it by a former discussion which is why it's so long and detailed). I did the research and these are some of the best academic sources available on the topic. I don't know about a single primary source trumping the synthesis of many modern historians - perhaps Hippolytus was speaking in how things "should be" or how he wanted to present them as being. Certainly it was in the Church's interest to have everyone baptized as soon as possible. It's also unclear in what context this quote is taken - no one is saying children baptism didn't happen. -- Stbalbach 23:46, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't see where the passage of Hippolytus refutes the footnote. Hippolytus explicitly mentions baptism of adult men and women; the footnote doesn't state that infant baptism was not practised, but that baptism was often (not always) postponed. Maybe replace "had not yet become a matter of routine in the west" with "was often deferred / delayed", but the sense of the note is correct. (A nice illustration of the sentiment is in Augustine, Confessions I, 11.17-18, which would have been c. 355-360, that is relatively near to Constantine.) Varana 14:10, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
The problem of the footnote is one of emphasis. It claims that infant baptism wasn't the routine (implying that something else was) instead of just stating that it wasn't universal. Not to speak of the highly questionable interpretation that it was seen "more as a promise of future submission to Christianity than a deliberate choice to be Christian", when sacramentally speaking baptism means incorporation (or submission, if you will) into Christianity. Also, that "it was initially only done in times of emergency" is more than questionable. This all might be a tenable POV but should it be included here, where me merely deal with Constantine and his baptism? Str1977 (smile back) 18:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the responses. First, Str1977 is correct that Hippolytus was not *the* bishop of Rome (i.e., the Pope); however, he was *a* bishop in Rome. [5]. Sorry for the overstatement.
Great link, Verena! Augustine seems to be lamenting his delayed baptism as well as giving indirect evidence that baptism was purposely delayed during that time period.
Third, what's at stake here is that the history of baptism is sometimes used as ammunition for the debate over the theology of baptism: "the early church did X; therefore, we should also do X." My understanding, however, is that the practices of the early church and understanding of its meaning were varied. For example, the Canons of Hippolytus above shows that infant baptism *was* 'routine' -- perhaps common, perhaps not; but routine nevertheless -- in his jurisdiction at least; whereas for Tertullian and the Montanists, it would probably not have been practiced. Thus, I would support language such as "infant baptism was not universal", and leave out the underlying motivations ("promise of future submission", etc.), since they are not relevant to Constantine (and also because it seems likely that baptism of infants would have been understood much as baptism of adults: an actual washing away of the sin nature). jrcagle 15:06, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural depictions of Constantine

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deified?

This article is categoried with the "Deified Roman emperors" category. Anyone have any kind of cite for this? Inscriptions where he's referred to as "divus" don't cut it; I'm talking about actual formal declaration from the Senate. --Jfruh (talk) 03:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

In Late Antiquity, the old formal procedures had become meaningless. That includes the Senate. If Constantine is called divus on official documents as inscriptions and coins, the deification is as official as it will ever get. Emperors are referred to as divus right after their death; the Senate didn't have to say anything on the matter. Maximian, for instance, even went from being ignored to damnatio memoriae to divus on Constantine's whim (not to mention that he was deified by Maxentius and suffered damnatio memoriae by Constantine *at the same time*).
Additionally, we simply don't have any acts and proceedings of the Senate from those times. They were... quite unimportant. Varana 17:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps the Senate had become unimportant, but I think that merely calling someone "divus" doesn't make the deified. In late antiquity, it had essentially come to mean "the late Emperor whom we like." It doesn't carry with it the full connotations of state-sponsored cult that would have accrued to deified emperors in the 1st or 2nd century. I'm not saying that there wasn't a certain sacral quality to it, but it's misleading to say that Constantine was deified in the same sense that, say, Vespasian was. --Jfruh (talk) 17:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. What constitutes deification, then?
For Constantine, we do have official coinage declaring him divus and others showing his ascent to heaven on a chariot. Whether we have cults for him, I'm not certain; I can access the relevant books only in some weeks' time.
On the other hand, do you have some examples for an emperor being called divus after his death, where we are sure that he didn't have any cult associated with him? I think that often, it's the other way 'round: in Late Antiquity, a divine nature is something the emperor already possesses during his life, death adds little to it. The need for a declaration to divus was less important, as the emperor already was divine, and his divinity most clearly to be seen by his actions during his lifetime, not after death. Constantine was divine while he lived; when he died, it stayed the same. Constantine was maybe not deified "in the same sense (as) Vespasian"; he was not an emperor "in the same sense as Vespasian", he ruled an empire that was different from that of Vespasian, and religious beliefs had changed from the times of Vespasian (also in the non-Christian religions).
Granted, I don't know of any city that explicitly created a priesthood for the deified Constantine. However - was that still common procedure at all? I'm fairly sure that the same applies to any emperor of the tetrarchy. In this light, the argument against the deification becomes one e silentio: we have official documents in favour of the deification; we don't have any statement to the contrary. Varana 22:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] In hoc signo vinces

No mention of the famous dream/vision? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.19.173.43 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] IMPORTANT

Hey ladies and gentlemen,

Some imbecile has made some minor changes to this page. For example, at the top, instead of saying constantine it says yo mamma. All that appears to be changed is the name. I am not fammiliar with editing wiki pages so i will leave that to someone else. It is in my opinion, that only members can make changes to pages. I love wikipedia and may it live forever.


thanks,

SaltyMirz#10GT

email: <removed> —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.144.107.155 (talk) 01:19, 13 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] On Baptism and "veracity" of his faith

The lead paragraph questions whether Constantine "really" converted to Christianity because he was allegedly baptised late in life. This does not belong so early in the story.

  • The conclusion does not follow from the premise
Late baptisms were a common practise, like deathbed confessions are viewed now
  • Other factors have more bearing on his conversion
His drive to straighten up the church, calling the council of Nicea, indicate an appropriate degree of fanaticism

MartinGugino 17:55, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

No I didnt read every word above on the subject - there is to much, and its not threaded - MartinGugino 17:59, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] removed: and the fact that he was baptized very close to his death

It says in Wikipedia itself that this was the custom in those days. So even if the fact is true, you can't draw that conclusion from it.

[edit] Toleration date

Didn't Constantine give offical toleration of Christians in 313 not 311 (Edict of Milan)???

[edit] Rampant Vandalism

I recommend, like many other pages, that this article be locked or semi-protected. This is an article ripe for and rife with vandalism. Knight45 02:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] removal of quotes in judaism section

I removed the legnthy quotes in the Judaism section and added just the information they expressed. As an encyclopedia, it is expected that the reader is given a gloss of information, not legnthy quotes. I do not see what purpose the quotes serve, since their information is already given. Also, I removed the two unsourced statements saying (1) that the emperor was deified and (2) that this was just a posthumous honour - besides being unsourced and "fact tagged", if true they seem to render each other trivial. I rephrased the bit on Eusebius's Arianism - he was not always an Arian and we would need a source saying whether he was at the time of Constantine's death or not; as I understand it, Eusebius's exact religious position at points of his career is disputed. Lostcaesar 22:07, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

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