Talk:Console role-playing game

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Contents 1 Flagship RPG series 2 Zelda? 3 HP? 4 Request 5 Rewrite 6 Comment 7 Major changes 8 "console"-style computer RPGs 9 MSX 10 CRPG style Console RPG problem 11 Noting of exceptions 12 Merge discussion 13 Too many speculations and lacks sources. 14 C/RPG or J/RPG? 15 Hardware limitations on design 16 Stealing 17 Citation is nonsense 18 multi-move proposal 19 Nomenclature

[edit] Flagship RPG series

I recommend changing the series listed in the example line so that it only lists a few of the highest respected and most influential series, series that have quite a bit of history behind them and that represent some of the most important RPG companies & consoles. Not to speak negatively on any of the titles that are up there currently as I've enjoyed all of them to varying degrees, but it seems odd that series with only a few entries (or just 1 in the case of Legend of Dragoon!) or with entries that vary widely in quality are on the list, whereas more influential series are excluded. A short section with a sentence or two description of each series and why it's a worthy RPG flagship series might be a good addition as well.

My personal recommendations: Dragon Warrior & Final Fantasy - Beyond obvious. The two best selling and best known RPGs (aside from the next one on the list). Represents Square Enix.

Pokemon - Best selling CRPG of all time. Represents portable CRPGs and CRPGs aimed at younger audiences. Represents Nintendo.

Megami Tensei - Between the main series & its many spinoffs, there are around 30 RPGs here, most of very high quality. The flagship mature/dark/"not stereotypical fantasy/sci-fi" CRPG series. Represents Atlus.

Phantasy Star - An innovative early CRPG series that was later reborn as an online Action/RPG. Lots of games here (4 SMS/Genesis games, major remakes of the first two games, the 3 Phantasy Star Onlines, Phantasy Star Universe, the 2 Game Gear games, the Meganet games, various ports & collections, etc.). Represents Sega & their various systems (SMS, Genesis, Dreamcast).

Tales - The flagship example of introducing Action battles into otherwise typical RPGs. Represents Namco.

Ys - Represents Action/RPGs, PC/obscure consoles CRPGs, and harcore gamers well. Represents Nihon Falcom.

[edit] Zelda?

I've never considered the Legend of Zelda series RPGs. I thought it was the general consensus that it is an action/adventure game. What are everyone else's feelings on it? Cdwillis 07:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Same here. Anyone want to remove it? -- Solberg 20:02, 7 November 2006 (UTC)Solberg

I also agree, and have removed it from the list. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 20:05, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. In case it's not obvious to some bystanders, having stats is not sufficient to say a game is an RPG. As noted on another page, stats and skill systems have been extensively exported from the RPG genre to many other genres, particularly action and FPS. -- Solberg 20:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)Solberg

Actually, I would guess that FPS didn't come about until long after RPGs. An interesting twist, however, is that one of the differences between action/adventure and RPG was the separate battle screen. However, Final Fantasy XII is clearly (IMHO) an RPG, but does not switch to a battle screen. I'm guessing definitions will evolve over time, but at present most RPGs allow you to form a party, often able to switch characters in and out, including the original character. An action/adventure is basically a single character that may have other characters in a "party", but the other characters are usually quite different. For that reason, I'm not sure that Kingdom Hearts is *really* an RPG, and if it wasn't created by Square, I'm guessing that most people would call it an action/adventure more than an RPG. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 20:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't recall whether the FPS genre was created before the RPG genre but it doesn't make a difference either way. At some point, the RPG genre began exporting many features (mainly stats-based gameplay) to the FPS and action genres (Zelda, Deus Ex, System Shock, Oblivion, etc are all products of this). Whether the FPS genre was made first or second is not relevant. The separate battle screen is mainly a relic from Ultima III (essentially the ancestor of both computer and console RPGs) and a nice convenience because of classic consoles' insufficient memory to easily represent dynamic characters and battles on the original screen (Chrono Trigger was a delightful exception to some of the above comments though), and not really an RPG specific feature necessarily. In fact almost no computer RPGs (past or present) use the battle screen and increasingly few modern console RPGs use it as well. -- Solberg 03:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)Solberg

Bah. If Zelda's not a cRPG, then a whole bunch of games ceases to be as well (Shining Force, Chrono Trigger and Seiken Densetsu to name a few of the most notable). It's top-down, you advance in stats, advance in the plot in a more of less fixed environment (as opposed to having different "stages"), interact with other characters (unlock features by talking to other characters for example), purchase items... only thing I don't recall is being able to choose which lines you'll say, but then it's been a long time. It is an action RPG, is all. RafaelLopez 23:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

RafaelLopez, being top-down, advancing in stats etc. does not make a game an RPG. RPGs are where battles are separate from the adventure screen. EG, Final Fantasy, Tales, Chrono Trigger... they all also have levels. Zelda doesn't have levels!!! LuGiADude 15:49, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Zelda has historically been called an Action/Adventure game, not a RPG. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 17:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

"RPGs are where battles are separate from the adventure screen"... Wow. I've hardly ever seen worse definition of RPG. Henceforth Gothic and Ultima VII or later can't be called RPGs anymore. Also: "historically being called an Action etc.." Historically? By whom, you? RafaelLopez 01:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Back in the days of SNES, the separate battle screen was considered one of the obvious differences between action / adventure (like Zelda) and RPGs (like Final Fantasy). As mentioned above, RPGs and Action / Adventure games are moving closer together, but there are still basic differences between the two. As for historically, I was talking about back in the NES / SNES time period. The fact that a consensus agreed that Zelda didn't fit indicates this is not an isolated opinion. You can go back over old gaming magazines, and you should find most classified Zelda as Action/Adventure and Final Fantasy as RPG. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 16:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] HP?

Does HP really stand for Hit Points? I always saw it referred to as Health Points... -- 138.246.7.97 20:29, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Both have been used before, but "hit points" is more common. I wikilinked the term to the definition pointing out synonyms. -- Solberg 19:48, 16 September 2006 (UTC)Solberg

[edit] Request

I request that someone please write a detail account of the story for Lunar:_Silver_Star_Story and Final_Fantasy_VII. Lunar SSS and FF7 are classic RPGs, but their story section is highly summarized. For an example of a detail account of the story, section, please look at FF6.

In the story section of Final_Fantasy_VI, a lot of details are given, such as Kefka poisoning the water supply in the siege of Doma Castle, Terra unable to accept herself being a half-esper, the balance of the world is destroyed, etc. However in the summarized FF7 story section, nothing is mentioned about the death of Aeris in the hands of Sephiroth, Meteor threat, Tifa helping Cloud overcoming his psychological problem, etc.

Request: If anyone have free time and can write a good article, please spend some time writing a more detail story for Lunar SSS and FF7.

[edit] Rewrite

I'll be re-writing this over the next few days. There seems to be some RPGers on Wikipedia who are intent on killing any information on cRPGs and CRPGs. This needs to be more informative and pictureful. ~~VincentVivi, 07:55, 20 June 2006

[edit] Comment

The original author of this article presents cRPG in a negative tone, as if these central elements that define the game are somehow lesser than that of computer role-playing game. Readers may resent this as the reason they play cRPG games is for its simpler and more entertaining gameplay than that of the often extremely involved and complex nature of computer role-playing game. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.39.61.68 (talk • contribs) 21:23, 19 June 2006.

Agreed. Removed most of the POV and harshness that I can see. Comment on other stuff that may be too over the top. -- Solberg 06:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC)Solberg

This is stupid. "More entertaining gameplay" is just as POV as your criticism. In fact, the entire article fails to mentioned the cRPGs aren't RPGs at all. RPGs are defined as Role Playing Games, where you play a role. cRPGs are not RPGs in any sense of the word. You play a predetermined character, and have few, if any, choices on how to solve quests or develope your characters. The story is completely linear. If anything, cRPGs are closer to Adventure games, than actual role playing games. This should be added to the article.

"More entertaining gameplay" is indeed POV, but that's not in the article, just someone's comment on the talk page. The idea that console RPGs are not RPGs is already mentioned in the Criticism section. Opinions can be mentioned in Wikipedia articles, but they must be stated fairly and the article should not appear to take a side. With this stipulation, feel free to add to the article. -- Solberg 11:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)Solberg

Before saying that cRPGs "aren't RPGs at all", one should verify wether all cRPGs really offer "a predetermined character", "few, if any, choices on how to solve quests or develope your characters" and if all cRPGs really are "completely linear". I'm more into computer RPGs so I can't speak for consoles, but the fact is, a number of PC RPGs offer just as many options as you'd have in a regular pen-n-paper Dungeons & Dragons session (non-linear solutions, the same stats and spells, dynamic evolution of stats, even alignments, etc.), except for the choices of what the characters have to say (although one must notice this was already fixed in human-controlled CRPG environments such as MMORPGs). So stating cRPGs aren't RPGs at all might equal saying D&D isn't RPG at all (which is arguable, but I'm not in the mood for *that* argument hehe). RafaelLopez 23:09, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Major changes

I have made several major changes to this page, the computer role-playing games page, and will soon create a new page. Voice dissent and assent, I will reply within a day. Overall, I believe the changes are good though. -- Solberg 04:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)Solberg

Hi. First of all, I would recommend you place {{inuse}} at the top of the page while you're editing a page for a long time to avoid direct edit conflicts, as you are right now. Second, it's a good thing you're removing much of the slightly harsh POV out of the article ("real role-playing", etc.). I think this article should be as dry as possible when referring to these conflicts, as it's really not notable at all that there are small groups of hardcore fanboys on either side that refuse to acknowledge the other.

While the comparison to computer RPGs is important, the entire article shouldn't be devoted to it, it should focus more on the specifics on console RPGs without constantly saying "console RPGs do this, but computer RPGs do this" in every section. It should be simply contained to one or two sections. There's enough difference from them, with its own identity, history and information that this topic can cover. I think half the "Controversy and Criticism" section as it is should be cut. It's an argument that just doesn't really need to be covered that throughly. But statements like "Lastly, there is a small but vocal segment of the gaming community which abhors RPGs in general. Among this segment's criticisms are that RPGs involve no skill, are unrealistic or overly abstract, and do not offer strong gameplay." don't need to be in this at all!

So far it's mostly pretty good, though I think there are some language issues and the reference to RPGCodex is totally unnecessary (and a borderline advert), but I'll wait until you're done with your editing. --SevereTireDamage 06:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I referred to RPGCodex to provide evidence of such a community. It's not an advert because the site is just a forum, i.e. it doesn't sell games. Remove it if you want, I agree it does look like a "bump on the log" so to speak. Just not sure how else to supply evidence of such gaming communities. On your first point, thanks, I've dealt with fanboys from both sides and I usually try to remove as much POV as I can and unnecessary harshness. Regarding the "abhors RPGs" statement, I'll rephrase it. Controversy is a bit too strong a word perhaps. And sorry about the in-use thing, I didn't know that there was such a tag. -- Solberg 06:55, 12 July 2006 (UTC)Solberg

Ok, I removed the reference to the RPGCodex and simply just used "some players" since apparently the criticism is pretty famous (judging by the Comparison page content written by previous authors) so there's no need to point out a specific gaming community. I removed the Zelda reference because it's not really that big a deal. The rest of the criticism, although it may be reformatted, I think does belong there. I would disagree if your point is that Wikipedia should not document disagreements between fanboys. So long as it's done in a respectable, dry manner to both sides it's fine I think. Nothing wrong with mentioning (intelligent) criticism. Note that there is also a (pretty long) criticism section on the CRPG page too so this is nothing new. -- Solberg 07:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)Solberg

Mostly done now. That took a while, any improvements are appreciated, overall I think the split between the two articles and the comparison page works pretty well. A good place to improve in article (besides general elaboration) is the history section, which has lots of missing gaps. -- Solberg 09:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)Solberg

[edit] "console"-style computer RPGs

Making an incomplete list of console-style RPGs that are for computers (not necessarily IBM PC, could be PC-98 or FM-Towns). These Japanese/Taiwanese games fit in more with the characterization of the console role-playing game article (except the hardware limitation part) as opposed to computer role-playing game article. This initial list happens to contain many eroge simply because the overwhelming majority of the Japanese computer game market is eroge, and my list of Japanese and Taiwanese computer games are very incomplete. Tactical RPGs are not listed here because I didn't notice the main article counted tactical RPGs initially, and because tactical RPGs don't quite fit the description of the console RPG article.

• 1989
  • Dragon Knight series debuts
  • Rance series debuts
• 1990
  • Dragon Knight 2
  • Rance 2
  • Toushin Toshi
  • Xuan Yuan Sword series debutes
• 1991
  • Rance 3
• 1992
  • Words Worth (original version)
• 1993
  • Rance 4
• 1994
  • Toushin Toshi 2
  • Dragon Knight 4
  • Xuan Yuan Sword 2
• 1995
  • Rance 4.1
  • Rance 4.2
  • Dangel
  • Xuan Yuan Sword side story: Dance of Maple
• 1996
  • Ikazuchi no Senshi Raidi
• 1998
  • Oudouyuushya
  • Pastel Chime
  • Desert Time - Mugen no Meikyou
• 1999
  • Men At Work! series debutes
  • Ikusamegami
  • Wordsworth (Windows remake)
  • Kurenai no namida
  • Xuan Yuan Sword 3
  • The Twin Heroes
• 2000
  • Persiom
  • Phantom Knight - Mugen no Meikyou 2
  • Brutish Mine
  • Men at Work! 2
  • The Twin Heroes 2
• 2001
  • Yorugakuru
  • Card of Destiny
  • Izumo series debutes
  • Xuan Yuan Sword side story: Scar of Sky
• 2002
  • Ikusamegami 2
  • Rance 5D
  • Men at Work! 3
  • Xuan Yuan Sword 4
  • The Twin Heroes 3
• 2003
  • Danger Angel
  • Mugen no Meikyou 3 Type S
  • Vagrants
  • Fantasia Sango
• 2004
  • Dungeon & Doll (part of the "Alice no Yakata 7" )
  • Izumo 2
  • Rance 6
  • Hitogata Ruin
  • Xuan Yuan Sword side story: ??
• 2005
  • Pastel Chime Continue
  • GalZoo Island
  • Sonic Dive
  • Fantasia Sango 2
• 2006
  • Men at Work! 4
  • Xuan Yuan Sword 5
• Coming soon
  • Sengoku Rance (Rance 7)
  • The Twin Heroes Episode 0

• Unknown dates
  • Dragon Knight 3
  • Legend of the Fairy Sword and Strange Heroes series: 1,New,2,3
  • Legend of the Condor Heroes
  • New - Legend of the Condor Heroes
  • Legend of Chu Liu Hsian
  • New Legend of Chu Liu Hsian

[edit] MSX

I added MSX to Dragon Quest. I believe Ys was released on almost every platform at the time, but I'm not sure of all of them. I also added a couple of games. I think something about the MSX should be mentioned near the beginning of the history as a lot of early NES games including Metal Gear were also released on MSX and NES could have even been an afterthought at the time. Also, I don't know anyone that calls these games CRPGS that is almost exclusively used for PC style games. Everyone I know uses JRPG whenever they have to distinguish them. I know its been defined in dictionaries to the contrary, but I'm talking real world use. Plus its just not practical and very confusing to call both divergent genres CRPGs.

I agree and in fact we had a discussion about this several months ago but unfortunately a definition is a definition. If you can find some reputable sources that show CRPG is used almost always for PC rpgs and JRPG for console RPGs (often made in Japan) then you could start a new debate maybe. Until then we have to stick with what appears to be the definition, practical or not. -- Solberg 19:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)Solberg

[edit] CRPG style Console RPG problem

This article has a big problem in my opinion.
Console RPGs derived from computer RPG are classified with console JRPGs, and they have totally different style.
There are few of them but these are completely different from formal console JRPGs.
Namely...

• BioWare Corporation
  • Star Wars:Knights of the Old Republic(Xbox, PC)-2003
  • Jade Empire(Xbox)-2005 *PC version in early 2007*
  • Mass Effect(Xbox 360)-2007 TBA
• Bethesda Softworks
  
  • The Elder Scrolls III Morrowind(Xbox, PC)-2003
  • The Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion(Xbox 360, PC)-2006
• Obsidian Entertainment
  
  • Star Wars:Knights of the Old Republic 2(Xbox, PC)-2004
  • Alien RPG(Xbox 360, PS3)-TBA
• Irrational Games
  • Bioshock(Xbox 360, PC)-June 2007 *Bioshock is claimed as a FPS by developer but this one absolutely has RPG factors a lot*

Features of these games are totally different from what is described in console RPG article in Wikipedia.
All the features in these games are similar to computer RPGs and actually all these companies are still developing PC RPGs.
So, in my opinion, this article is completely wrong; Full-scale editing is required for this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Team56th (talk • contribs) 04:21, 3 January 2007 (UTC).

Ugh this keeps coming up and up again and the real problem is that real life usage of the term is a total mess. I don't have the time to formally back this up now, but using google, you can find (notable) sources for virtually any description of console RPG, some of which lean towards "console RPG = JRPG" and some of which lean towards (on the other spectrum) "console RPG = RPG on a console."

IMO this article should, for the most part, pretend they are synonymous, with a disclaimer at the top that (1) console RPG is usually synonymous with JRPG, but (2) not all console RPGs exhibit JRPG characteristics, especially not *ported games* (duh), and (3) the XBox is pretty much a stripped down personal computer in terms of architecture. -- Solberg 03:56, 17 January 2007 (UTC)Solberg

[edit] Noting of exceptions

Apparently, the article didn't emphasize much "cRPGs" that have exemptions to the rule - for instance, there are many RPGs that are not turn-based but instead act in real-time, and that they can see the enemies on the field. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.83.14.187 (talk) 09:19, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

The article is designed as an overview of CRPGs. Real-time battles and the ability to see enemies on the field are fairly new developments (IMHO) wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 14:55, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge discussion

There are a lot of problems stemming from this being listed as a separate genre from console role-playing games, as well as how they are termed. While they are large entries, and merging them will require work, it needs to be done.

• They aren't separate genres. They're distinct styles within the same genre. There are distinct styles of role-playing games, but computer role-playing games (like, say, Ultima) influence console role playing game (like Dragon Quest) and vice versa. They both draw from the same foundation, and share the same defining elements. They are merely different sub-genres.

• "console" and "computer" are not the appropriate terms for distinguishing these styles. Many, many of these games have historically been multi-platform, and many that play more like what the console article describes were, in fact, computer games (The original Megami Tensei, for instance), as well as console-originals that play more like what the Computer RPG article describes (X-Men Legends).

• Even if those terms were more generally accurate, it is very bad form to define a genre by platform. What system it's on doesn't determine what kind of game it is.

It's really self defeating to try to break these up this way. It makes it impossible to honestly discuss the development of the genre, and is frankly very misleading in general.

Thoughts? Frogacuda 21:15, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I moved this discussion to the bottom of the page, which is where new sections are normally placed.

Do not merge — I don't agree with the argument that console and computer RPGs are the same thing. (Disclaimer - I don't play any games on PCs, only on consoles, but my son keeps trying to get me interested in Computer RPGs). Most of the Computer RPGs that I have looked at are quite different than the console RPGs that I normally play. While there are some games that are on PCs as well as consoles, they seem fairly rare. It was a big deal when Final Fantasy VII was ported to the PC. Granted, it seems easier for X-Box games to get ported to PCs, so maybe the two sets of games will become closer to each other, but as of yet (IMHO) they are different. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 02:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course they're not the same thing. Japanese Adventure games, like say Snatcher or Phoenix Wright are very different from Sam and Max and Monkey Island, but there's still only one article for adventure games, because they're still part of a cohesive genre, with many common traits. Please at least pretend to read what I wrote. Frogacuda 01:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I did read what you wrote. That's why I said I didn't agree with it.  ;^) Notice that I never stated you were wrong, just that I didn't agree with the claim that they were the same genre.

Again, I haven't done much with Computer RPGs, but I have played a lot of console RPGs. The computer RPGs that my son keeps trying to get me to play are quite different than the console RPGs that I play (like the ones from Square). The main thing I noticed were the first person perspective (which I hate) and the need to define the starting stats and/or job class. The other thing I noticed was that most of them involved a main character that had no personality with little or no additional characters in the group. Compared to Final Fantasy, for example, they are like night and day, IMHO. Granted, there are some console RPGs where you can control growth, but in many cases the growth paths are pre-defined (e.g., when EXP=X, you reach level Y.) In general, I found computer RPGs to involve a lot more configuration than console RPGs, although I admit that the more recent console games give you more control over how each character evolves.

Now, before you come back with a list of computer games that are like console games, remember that I am not familiar with computer games, but I do know that the number of versions of my favorite console RPGs (like Final Fantasy) that also runs on PCs is quite small. ;^) I also know that my son's favorite computer RPGs (Baldur's Gate) have almost nothing in common with Final Fantasy. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 20:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Do not merge Computer RPG and Console RPG are not the same. Period. Nobody ever talks about them the same and they have very different mechanics. Just because a specific Computer RPG plays like a Console RPG or vice versa does not make the two equivalent. Some of these games were multi platform but the majority are not. This goes especially for the flagship titles of each genre. Baldur's Gate, PS:T, Arcanum, Fallout, Darklands, Daggerfall, etc for example were all never ported to Console. And we'd be crazy to say that (for example) Oblivion, KOTOR, etc aren't console RPGs because they play like Computer RPGs. They are console RPGs because they were made on consoles and that's that. Console RPGs, being normally dominated by the Japanese, tend to have a certain style, but violating that style doesn't not make a game a console RPG. Rather than being misleading, this category is unfortunately a necessary evil because we don't really have a better term, except possibly JRPG, which is listed as synonym (which it's not, but hey, it's close enough these days.) -- Solberg 04:50, 13 February 2007 (UTC)Solberg

This is ridiculous. I never said they were the same. I said that they aren't entirely different genres. There's a great deal of influence between the two and it is completely impossible to discuss the genre's history intelligently with them segregates. Furthermore, the defining traits of each genre are the same. While there are a lot of distinct conventions of Computer and Console RPGs, the things that MAKE THEM RPGs are the same.Frogacuda 01:48, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

They're not entirely different but they're different enough. Influence between the two? Only at the very beginning (i.e. early Ultima and Dragon Quest days) and a bit recently (KOTOR, Oblivion). Besides that, very little. Anachronox and Septerra Core were famous because they were exceptions. If the genres were really that close nobody would've batted an eye. It is in fact easy to discuss the two subgenres' histories intelligently with them as segregates. That's what we're doing right now and nobody has found it difficult on the History of computer role-playing games page. What is so difficult about it? What are the "defining traits" of each genre and why do you think they are the same? You'd have to use a pretty broad criterion, like "the genre uses numbers," an argument easily defeated since many other genres (action/adventure for instance) use statistics heavily. The things that "make them RPGS" are in fact not the same and that's why there is a long internet debate about the merits of each. If you will recall, the computer RPG is traditionally steeped in Pen and Paper (and some amount of wargame) mechanics whereas the console RPG evolved from this substrate, but went in a decidedly more narrativist direction focusing not on dynamics associated with P&P but with a linear, storyline driven approach. -- Solberg 10:11, 2 March 2007 (UTC)Solberg

I came back to make another post because I really don't understand your perspective Frogacuda. I'm not sure it makes any sense at all. I'll provide some examples and maybe you can humor me by indicating what exactly makes them close enough to merit inclusion within 1 article. Here are 10 famous computer RPGS, tell me what they influenced or were influenced by in the console RPG world at around the same time: Fallout, Arcanum, Diablo, Nethack, Ultima 7, Baldur's Gate, Ultima Underworld, System Shock 2, Neverwinter Nights, Ultima 4. -- Solberg 11:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)Solberg

I can't speak for newer games because I don't play them much, but pre-2000 console and PC RPGs really have far too many mechanics differences to be considered the same. I believe, however, if style, complexity and mechanics differences are acknowledged, the information on both could be in the same page. (I'm new here, still don't know what is the appropriate way to place these comments, bear with me folks ;) ) RafaelLopez 22:54, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment RPG's on PC and consoles used to be extremely diferent but now the gap is much narrower. I dont know how wikipedia's rules would affect this, so if they wouldn't allow this then just say and forget i ever said it, but would it be possible to have a "history of role-playing games" page, which would talk about these diferences in detail, and a "role-playing games" page, which would breifly talk about this, but go on to talk about role-playing games more generaly? Mattyatty 15:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

If the article becomes too long splitting is definitely allowed (see Wikipedia:Article size) and some RPG articles already mention electronic RPGs (albeit briefly). Having said that, this is going to be a big undertaking. There's already History of computer role-playing games, Chronology of console role-playing games, Chronology of computer role-playing games, and probably others. The whole thing's a mess. Garrett^Talk 01:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

We already have the article Role Playing Game. Should we merge that article as well? The fact that this article and the one on Computer RPGs are both decent-sized articles indicates that there is enough material to support an article. I think trying to merge the two articles would end up with a large mess. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 04:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

What I was thinking was to have one article for pen and paper and one for "electronic" RPGs. See User:Master Thief Garrett/RPG rewrite for a rough example of how east and west could fit into one article. I didn't rewrite the additional sections (History and Chronology, etc.), only the intro and gameplay-related parts. Garrett^Talk 06:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Eh, know that obviously I don't support the merge, so I'm biased, but the rewrite doesn't look all that good to me. The subgenres/genres (whatever you want to refer to them as) are divergent at enough locations that the rewrite switches back and forth like it's compare/contrast essay rather than an exposition on one single thing, which is ideally what an article should feel like most of the time. -- Solberg 10:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)Solberg

How is the gap much narrower? It's hard to argue with someone unless they're willing to put forth some actual evidence, as I've already done in my first comment. I've been playing games in both genres since the early days and I do not see this as self-evident. -- Solberg 10:11, 2 March 2007 (UTC)Solberg

Split most of the article into a JRPG article. Merge the rest with the Computer RPGs article. SharkD 02:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Too many speculations and lacks sources.

I feel there are several very good sections in this article. However, the single reference is a user-submission-based online dictionary entry of the acronym "CRPG." I understand that on a topic such as this, there's alot of information that comes from first-hand knowledge, leaving it unsourced, but can greatly contribute to the article.

This particular paragraph, appeared to me to favor Ultima and Wizardy while degrading Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy nearly to mere hacks thereof. I have played all three games mentioned here very breifly, but none extensively; thus my intent is not to deny, but rather to challange the veracity of what is presented here as fact.

>Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy both borrowed heavily from Ultima.

-A very bold, unsourced, statement. If I had made either of the former I might even consider it an accusation. Nothing less than a quote from a developers leaves it as speculation.

I have read before that DQ was heavily inspired by Ultima, and then toned down to its basic parts to make things more straight forward and appealing to the general person. Obviously considering what happened (in Japan), it worked. Go play DQ1, it really IS quite obviously inspired from Computer RPGs (you have to choose stairs from the menu to walk down stairs, for instance). ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 12:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

It's not my intention deny that it's true, but even if it's obvious and commonly accepted, such statements are exemplary of content that needs to reference a very reliable source. ExpatJApan 05:51, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

>For example, leveling up and saving must be done by speaking to the king in Dragon Quest, and in order to rest and get healed, the characters must visit the king (Dragon Quest) or stay the night at an inn (both games). The games are played in a top-down perspective, much like the Ultima games, as well.

-Such things are also common in pen-and-paper role-playing games and fantasy novels. Rather than comparing them and saying Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy borrowed the top-down perspective from Ultima, why not write something like "Ultima was the first console RPG played from a top-down perspective." (I don't know if that's true or not but, you get the idea.)

>The combat style in Dragon Quest was borrowed from another series from the personal computer market, the Wizardry games.

-Quite an accusation, one would think they just copy&pasted the code over into their own game.

>Dragon Quest's medieval setting was also remarkably reminiscent of Ultima.

-This is a personal point of view.

>Dragon Quest did not reach America until 1989, when it was released as Dragon Warrior, the first NES RPG and thus one of the major influences of early CRPG development.

-This should be sourced to an interview of someone saying they were influenced by Dragon Quest or something like that.

Maybe the "Navigation" section could be expanded into "Setting" or something like that and make mention of the common time periods portrayed in console RPGs.

I also would like to suggest removing the "Chronology of Console Role-Playing Games" in favor of simply adding a See Also link to the main article of the same title. The chonology of the major developments (e.g., "Ultima introduces first top-down POV RPG") should go in history.

I don't understand the WikiTML language at all so I just thought I'd leave a couple suggestions rather than accidently screwing things up beyond repair. ExpatJApan 04:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] C/RPG or J/RPG?

The word "console" is too broad and generic, and implies that the differences in hardware are the sole reasons for the differences in gameplay and content. There are many amateur game projects which easily fall into this category. There are also console RPGs that do not fit in this category. Also, I've never heard of "CRPG" being used for anything besides "cumputer role-playing game" outside of Wikipedia (I think consoles are computers, which adds to the confusion). I think that "JRPG" is much more fitting and more common. SharkD 18:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

The word "JRPG" is kind of broad too and implies that the games within the category are much closer than they really are. And it doesn't solve the problem of games that aren't made in Japan but nonetheless are regarded as console RPGs. Would you put computer games that are heavily influenced by JRPGs (eg Septerra Core) in the new article? Where would you put games that obviously aren't computer RPGS (because they only appear on console) but are obviously not JRPGs (Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance)? What will you do with games that are Asian but not from Japan (eg Sword of Xuan Yuan)? Or games from Japan that were heavily inspired from computer RPGS (eg early Dragon Quests)? -- Solberg 06:57, 20 March 2007 (UTC)Solberg

I would put games that are similar in style in the category, regardless of hardware. SharkD 20:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

What about the other questions? You only answered the first one. Would you put games like Sword of Xuan Yuan and Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance into JRPG too? That wouldn't really make any sense, if anything, it would make even less sense than the current distinction which is at least grounded on some reality. How about early Dragon Quests and other JRPGs? Would you put these into computer RPG since they had the same style (the "JRPG" style was not yet developed). And how can one be certain at all that there are only 2 styles? -- Solberg 18:54, 23 March 2007 (UTC)Solberg

[edit] Hardware limitations on design

I decided to remove this section because, not only is it unsourced, but... well, it's a load of crap, quite frankly. The lack of visible enemies on the world map is because of limited memory space? Then explain the hundreds of console action games where the enemies are all visible in the field. Save points are occasional because of memory limitations? How can that possibly be the case when a save will take up the same amount regardless of where it is made? The rarity of branching stories might be memory-related, but it's not like it was unheard of before the era of disc-based media (there's the Romancing Saga series on the SNES, for a start).

And finally, there is the idea that dialogue in console RPGs is short and concise because the text is hard to read from a distance. I don't know where to start with this one. Console RPGs typically have MUCH more text than other types of console games, and anyone playing one will have to become accustomed to reading a large amount of text, so the idea that developers would limit themselves for this reason seems bizarre. In any case, the amount of text varies wildly from game to game, and the summary that "text in CRPGs is concise, usually displayed in large fonts and limiting game dialogue and messaging to a short paragraph" is a ridiculous generalisation. Ironically, where it is accurate, sometimes the reason actually is limited memory: older translated RPGs sometimes ended up being very terse because there wasn't enough space for a thorough translation.

It might be worthwhile to re-incorporate the information about trends in game design into the article, but the baseless speculation that these things are down to memory limitations (and, in the last case, the text being hard to read) has surely got to go. Philip Reuben 18:28, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you should have discussed this before removing it. SharkD 02:01, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

The comparison in hardware limitations on design is being made between computer and console RPGS, not console RPGs and other console games. The difference between a computer monitor (usually very high resolution) and a television (usually very low resolution) is pretty staggering when it comes to reading text. The reason you don't notice this is because the font is usually pretty big in console RPGs. Unfortunately the size of the font also means that text takes up a lot of screen space-- thus, relative to computer RPGS, there is much less text on the screen at any time. About storyline branching, the section doesn't say it was unheard of before the era of disc-based media. It just said it was rare. Like you just did in fact. So I'm not sure what is your complaint there either. On the other hand I don't really care enough to put the section back in, nor to find citations for it. -- Solberg

Memory limitations easily affect game design. For example, consider Save Points. If you let the user save anywhere in the game, then the location of the save must be recorded. This will require X & Y coordinates, and possibly Z, if a character can climb a ladder, for example. You would also need to record the existence and location of any enemies in the area, especially if they are being displayed on the screen. (You don't expect all the monsters to be regenerated after a save, even if they aren't visible.) Most Save Points are in safe areas where there are no enemies around. When you leave the safe area, you expect all the monsters to be regenerated. All that is needed to record a save in this case is the number of the save point.

So the choices are (at a minimum) X and Y values versus a single value. If we figure that there aren't more than 256 save locations in a game, we are talking about 4 bits to record a save. Depending on the resolution, it would take considerably more bits just to record the X & Y locations before we even think of saving the state of the game.

You young-uns don't remember what it was like in the old days when memory was measured in K. We would spend hours rewriting routines just to save a little bit of memory. Are you familiar with Bill Gates' famous comment that 640 K should be plenty of memory for anyone writing computer programs? wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 17:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stealing

I steal your list of JRPGs for "my" JRPG article ru:JRPG, but I've excluded from it a computer-style RPG's, I wonder what they're doing here. Uniting of genres only because it was released on console makes really nonsense. Good luck to you, I hope my knowledge of English doesn't make nonsense from my sentences... --Simon the Dragon 00:03, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Maybe a special section for PC/Console ports should be created? SharkD 01:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course. Seeing of TES series, which are computer RPG to the backbone, in the list of console RPGs and near all these JRPGs looks absolutely weird. --Simon the Dragon 11:15, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the TES games are moving more and more in the direction of JRPGs. Oblivion is hardly a CRPG to the backbone. SharkD 19:48, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citation is nonsense

The one, single citation present in this article is nonsense. First of all, the site is mirrored in Wikipedia. Secondly, users are able to submit new definitions. This creates a Negative Credibility Feedback Loop (NCFL), given that Wikipedia is an editable resource, itself. SharkD 02:23, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't the one who made that citation but I was there when it was made. The cited page did not mirror Wikipedia before. My guess is that once people on the other side realized we were linking to them, they decided to link back as courtesy. So while it's not quite as bad as you think, it is a loop now and thus looks ingenuous. Also, if users can submit new definitions, then that is also an issue. Do you have an alternate recommendation for an unbiased, respectable source that can define the term? -- Solberg 09:51, 20 March 2007 (UTC)Solberg

I don't have a better recommendation. I think the current citation needs to be removed. SharkD 19:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead then, I don't think anyone will stop you (be sure to mention the reason in the comment box though). -- Solberg 18:56, 23 March 2007 (UTC)Solberg

[edit] multi-move proposal

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 07:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nomenclature

For historical, cultural, and hardware related reasons, console role-playing games have evolved a very different set of features that mark them distinct from other electronic RPGs. Because the vast majority of CRPGs originate in Eastern Asia, particularly Japan, CRPGs are often referred to as Japanese role-playing game (JRPGs), although there are many non-Japanese and Western console role-playing games in existence.

A computer role-playing game (also referred to as CRPG) may be marked as a "console-style RPG" by the gaming community if its gameplay and design philosophy is similar to that of most console role-playing games. Examples of such games that actively pursued an Eastern style of RPGs include Anachronox and Septerra Core.

The categorization between console and computer role-playing games is sometimes ambiguous for cross-platform games such as the Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic series, or for games that are ported from one format to another, such as Eye of the Beholder or Final Fantasy VII. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Solberg (talk • contribs) 09:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

In the above passage quoted from the article, "computer role-playing game" (beginning of second paragraph) is used to mean "an RPG that uses computer as the hardware", as opposed to being a genre. The second paragraph also uses the term "console role-playing game" to mean games using console for hardware, as opposed to being a genre that goes beyonds hardwares. When the genre is being referenced in the second paragraph, the exact term is the target of my move proposal ("console-style RPG", if you ignore the diff between "RPG" and "role-playing game"). I believe this supports my proposal to call the genres "blah-style RPGs" to reduce confusion. -Afker 10:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea of adding -style, but in a sense wouldn't it be Original Research? We'd have to find sources that actually call it those, or else (unfortunetly, I'd say) the articles should probably stay as they are. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 11:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I feel that "console-style RPG" is no more "original research" than "console RPG". I don't feel either term have an especially established presense (when used to refer to the genre). Or to put it differently, when most of the people use the term "console RPG", they are actually only thinking about RPGs using console hardware, instead of referring to a hardware-transending genre. When referring to the overall genre, we don't really have data on how many people actually call the genre "console RPG", vs "console-style RPG". So unless we turn the article into one about games on specific hardware instead of a genre of games, it would be better to go with a name that causes minimal confusion. IMHO. -Afker 13:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

And the name that causes minimal confusion is JRPG. SharkD 20:11, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

There *are* sites that refer to games as "console style RPG," but this is a term usually used for games that appear on PC. [1] (It would be redundant to call a console RPG "a console style RPG."" Console RPG is not original research at all, many people refer to these games this way. [2] -- Solberg 19:02, 23 March 2007 (UTC)Solberg

I always considered JRPG to indicate that there are minimal choices involved in the game. The description I once heard was that playing a JRPG were like watching a movie which pauses occasionally for you to click a button to progress. When playing American RPGs, however, the player was able to make choices that would control the eventual outcome of the game. So, if you are asked a question, and it doesn't matter what you answer, that was an indication that it was a JRPG; if, however, the answer mattered, then it wasn't. Now, I'm not saying that was a correct description, but rather that what you think are JRPGs may or may not be what somebody else says are JRPGs. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 19:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)