Talk:Conservative Punk

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This article was nominated for deletion on 25 March 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Contents 1 Thatcherism 2 Articles for Deletion debate 3 RE: AfD 4 NPOV? 5 uh 6 Is this a joke?

[edit] Thatcherism

"It can be argued that for all its left wing rhetoric, punk was youth culture's equivalent to Thatcherism. Even going as far as unwittingly laying the foundations for it, as the parallels are striking. Both stressed autonomy, entrepeneurship and individualism."

BOGUS ALERT? I didn't see Crass holding hands with Maggie Thatcher in the good old days during the miner's strike? Thatcher was everything punk resented, individual autonomy does not mean a weak social state and a strong military/security-state. How one can label an entire spectrum of local movements into one coined reference to a despot boggles my mind.

Basically, a bunch of american hipsters trying to be offensive and seeing a pseudo-intellectual equivalent of punk and party-political politics aren't worth listing.

So Crass didn't hold hands with Maggie Thatcher? What kind of argument is that? The fact is, and I was there, I grew up punk, had many, many punk friends, was part of the scene, and can verify that there always has been and always will be a conservative streak amongst punks. Anarchy is one thing, but most of my friends in the 1980s and I were very much aware of how the hippies, boomers and yuppies screwed things up in society. It is a historical fact that many in the punk movement were greasers, and as a military member in the U.S. Army, I cannot remember ANY unit that didn't have three or four soldiers who went against the grain of metal/hair bands/new-wave ripoff bands. Some were liberals, some even against the military, but we loved Reagan, Mulroney and Thatcher, because they were proud patriots who wanted government out of our lives. Surely, one can quibble with this, saying "social conservatism is not out of the bedroom, blah blah blah," but another distinguishing point of conservative punks is their laissez-faire view of the economy and socially moderate and/or liberal POV. I know this to be true BECAUSE I WAS THERE. Don't write us off, because you have an insecurity with conservative types. Robertjonesphoto 06:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but nobody's writing you off, this just isn't your life story, it's an encyclopedia article. It was originally written about the views of that one specific website and still reflects the fact that it is the only popular outlet anyone can come up with for conservativism in punk. Don't turn this into an "I was there, I know" - that's not what Wikipedia is about. The fact of the matter is that politics (and people's need to constantly label everyone) wind up dividing punks into categories like conservative and liberal based on their views on certain issues, and the polarizing nature of national politics today serves to further engrain a notion that we ought to split along those lines - lines that have recently been drastically redefined, wherein conservativism pays lip-service to these values and viewpoints it once may have represented, but tends only to act on behalf of rich people, evangelical church interests, and large corporations (when it isn't sticking its nose in our bedrooms, that is). This has nothing to do with fear of conservativism and everything to do with the fact that the liberal and progressive elements of punk rock are far more definitive than the conservative ones, and the conservative ones often appear very differently than they would otherwise (e.g. belief in small government becomes anarchism rather than mainstream, feel-good libertarianism). It's also clear that people who align themselves specifically with contemporary conservative movements (e.g. the people at this website) are contradicting many of what are considered cornerstone punk beliefs (freedom from a horribly overbearing government, not blindly supporting the reigning party, etc). Not to mention, they seem to really play-up the notion that so many of us liberals are astonished that they can be punk and conservative - I think this disbelief/astonishment is a myth, I never thought people couldn't be both, I just think they're misguided and (the way conservativism is these days) inconsistent in their beliefs. 149.43.x.x 13:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a perfectly fair comment - the punks and the Thatcherites were both groups of spoilt kids whose ideology was based on selfishness and destruction. They benefitted from the post-war consensus in British politics, had no memory of the famines and mass unemployment of the 1930s and ignored what they were told, and decided it would be a bit of a laugh to smash everything they could. Their determination to destroy society brought us mass unemployment, poverty, homelessness, rioting on the streets, and a brutal culture in which nobody has any respect for anybody else. And both groups liked picking on racial minorities and homosexuals.

And that wonderfully biased opinion can stay right here on the talk page. And for the record, if you don't want to sound entirely ignorant, punks (on the whole) overwhelmingly accept people of color and LGBTQ people, and have from the start defended their right to equity and respect. If you have something that's based on an informed perspective, I'd love to hear it, but it baffles me that you would even write something like this. 149.43.x.x 15:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Articles for Deletion debate

This article survived an Articles for Deletion debate. The discussion can be found here. -Splash^talk 03:10, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] RE: AfD

I think this has to be rewritten as an article on the movement, not a website. - Randwicked 03:29, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

No-one? Okay, I'll do it, but beware because I care neither for conservatism nor punk. - Randwicked 15:09, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

It appears as if an individual from IP 80.176.234.47 is removing the link to the website repeatedly in a POV attempt to make the website inaccessible to wikipedia readers. This individual replaced the link with a link to the World Socialist News website.

• This article still deserves to be deleted. Rather than being about a non-notable website it's about a non-existant subculture based around a non-notable website.Tombride 17:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

• Actually, it deserves to be deleted more now than when it was just about the website.Tombride 17:42, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree entirely. This amounts to the equivalent of saying there is a "Punk Voter" subculture of punk. It's a website, sure, that talks about a political category laid over a social one (people who are both conservative and punk), but the two have no special meaning in conjunction. I could say Libertarian punk, Republican punk, Constitutionalist punk, but none of these have special meaning (unlike, say, anarcho-punk, which is a particular social subgroup). The article reads like a debate (or at least one side of it), and isn't linked to any social movement except that tied to the website, which was just a reactionary jab at Punk Voter anyway. Not to mention (like I've said), I see the article as something full of broad (and generally incorrect or meaningless) generalizations, mixed with unencyclopedic and non-NPOV claims.149.43.x.x 17:57, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

If there really is a "Conservative Punk" movement, is it related to Straight edge? And should Punk Voter be redirected to Rock Against Bush, as had been suggested there? Esquizombi 02:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

No, not really. There are people who self identify as punk who are conservative, but it's not a label I've head people apply to any band, record label, or anything for that matter. It has nothing to do with straight edge, unless you consider the hardline scene of the mid 90's, but that was so far removed from punk that it doesn't really count.Tombride 06:22, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

The hardliner movement was more of a Abrahamic religious movement, not much to do with right wing politics really. The Conservative Punk founder is a self professed Republitarian, and it is more about economically right-wing views than socially restrictive ones. The Conservative Punk site has a list somewhere of "conservative punk" bands and record labels. Nagelfar 22:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I have three points in response. (1) Abrahamic religious momement has nothing to do with right wing politics? Have you read the newspaper lately? Today's conservativism is in no small way controlled by religious interests, especially evangelical and fundamentalist ones. (2) He may say he's "republitarian" but his website has articles/followers that show other, more un-punk if you would, attitudes. (3) Don't mix up punk-style music/bands/labels with the beliefs that define and shape the punk subculture. I could play reggae music about hating black people, that doesn't make me a Rasta (certainly not).149.43.x.x 13:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV?

I feel like this article overlooks some pretty clear points that could (and should?) be included as responses to the views of conservative punks that are expressed here. I don't think it's entirely out of line to expect that the article on conservative punk would have conservative punks' general response to other punks along with the corresponding response. For example, it says, "They even argue that as these values become more mainstream, conservatism becomes more punk, not less. They even goes as far as saying left wing punks are becoming what punk was a reaction against: hippies." Why not point out that the punk response to this is that punk isn't just anti-hippy and that punk ideals sit firmly on one side of certain issues? Or when it notes that conservative punks are pro-individualism, shouldn't we point out that plenty of non-conservative punks are too? Individualism is not a conservative ideal, not exclusively, and especially not in this sort of a context.

I just realized I forgot to sign that last comment 149.43.x.x 14:58, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] uh

Let's just ignore the Conservative Punk movement. They can fucking have the Vandals. You can't convince stupid people to suddenly become self-aware.

[edit] Is this a joke?

"Conservative Punk"?????? This is an oxymoron!!! Mitsos 14:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)