Talk:Conscious hip hop

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Contents 1 list 2 Is there...unconscious hip-hip? 3 "Conscious Rap" common, accepted label that needs to be included 4 npov and significance problems

[edit] list

what about Nas, he has lots of socially conscious songs, even 2Pac had some of the most famous socially conscious hip-hop like "Dear Mama", "Brenda's Got a Baby", "Changes", and "Keep Your Head Up" etc, what do you think, I dont want to just add them to the list without this discussion though.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.124.0.88 (talk • contribs).

I'd say don't add them, because even though they might have some conscious material, they're mostly gangsta. Λυδαcιτγ 03:44, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the list is more for predominately Conscious rappers. ReverendG 04:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

i think there should be a list of conscious artists. it would help clarify the genre. ReverendG 17:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Good idea! Want to start it? List of conscious hip hop artists. Λυδαcιτγ 04:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure, I don't think it'll warrent it's own page until it's become quite long, but I can start one in this article. ReverendG 05:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Looks good. Λυδαcιτγ 03:57, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Kanye West is far from a conscious hip hop artist, unless you consider his hypocritical "Jesus Walks" and jewels as benefitting society. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.208.87.163 (talk • contribs).

Kanye is concious whether you agree with his message or not, you dont have to believe his message for it to be concious, it doesnt have to be right or wrong, its a social message.--Samil20 13:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Added Michael Franti & Spearhead. I was surprised they weren't already on the list. -User:Alexalamode

[edit] Is there...unconscious hip-hip?

Well...is there? Sounds like a load of bollocks if you ask me. --M1ss1ontomars2k4 17:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Just because there is no "opposite" to concious hip-hop doesnt mean its bull. Its like saying Metal Rock then theres got to be Plastic Rock.--Samil20 12:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Conscious Rap" common, accepted label that needs to be included

I would propose improving the Underground Rap page and making sure there is a link from there to an improved Conscious Rap page. We cannot merely delete this (conscious rap) page. Hip hop/rap historians *and the artists themselves* clearly demarcate and identify "conscious rap" as a genre. Let's not delete it, but instead work on improving all of the pages connected with hip hop/rap genres. I cannot begin to do this now, but as someone who is beginning to teach the history of hip hop as an academic subject in universities, I would certainly propose keeping the topic alive and open to refinement by academic and nonacademic scholars of hip hop.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Biancom (talk • contribs).

Is the one little sentence that shows on the main page for this entry that which is being proposed to be deleted? Why not just call it a stub that needs expansion, rather than deletion (forgive my ignorance; I am a newbie at the whole wikipedia editing thing)?

Instead of writing two paragraphs decrying how unjust the prod is, you could write two paragraphs in the article itself. MOD 16:27, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

No offense, but who's to decide whats conscious and whats not? The press? I hope not.--Urthogie 17:08, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

"Conscious" is not to be taken literally. Cubist art is not made of cubes. And 3D art is more often than not 2 dimensional. Conscious hip-hop means hip-hop that is concerned with societal issues, as opposed to political issues. MOD 11:47, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I would like to contribute to the article, but I don't have the time right now to do it justice. I just wanted to advocate for not removing the entry at this time. ~biancom (aka Dr. B)

Could you explain how we would know whos conscious?--Urthogie 08:59, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

If the article is written without giving examples, is it still a problem that exactly who is "conscious" is subjective? I'm sure there are worthwhile and well established Wikipedia articles for which examples are no less subjective. Tim Ivorson 09:52, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

How can subjectivities be dealt with while respecting WP:V?--Urthogie 10:04, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

In the way that the authors of the aesthetics article might write whatever is verifiable about beauty, but omit their opinions. Aren't you really saying that "conscious" hip hop is in the eye of the beholder? Tim Ivorson 13:37, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I think aesthetics is a different situation because it is a recognized branch of philosophy. Noone says conscious hip hop is a genre, as far as i know.--Urthogie 16:09, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Conscious hip hop isn't recognized as a genre because the label is so acute it often applies to songs or very niche artists. Then again, at times that's really the opposite, one could call both KRS-ONE and Black Nubian conscious artists. Same with Queen Latifah, even though all the aforementioned artists are considered Golden Age and Political. It's songs like Queen Latifah's "UNITY," Black Nubian's "Hold On," and BDP's "Build and Destroy" that could be deemed as conscious hip-hop. MOD 19:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but there's no source that's an authority on whats conscious, so the article would lend itself to opinion and speculation.--Urthogie 08:26, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

How do you know if there is no source? You can't speak on this with authority, have you researched the topic at all? Being quick to assume there's no authority and then discredit the article itself is rather mistaken, is it not? MOD 10:34, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

There's no amount of research that could find an authority on any subjective issue. Of course, I could be wrong if this is an objective thing. If it is objective, and I'm wrong, could you please explain how that is?--Urthogie 12:12, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

A genre by definition is subjective. Hip-hop doesn't always use funk/soul/jazz records and rock doesn't always have an identical rhythm. Things change. Conscious hip-hop is a label applied to rap that raises awareness of social issues. That's it. Saying rock is objectively something, rap is objectively something, or jazz is objectively something is not proper and it limits the scope of the music that can be classified under the genre. MOD 15:39, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

A genre isn't subjective. There are some guys that are indisputably hip hop. Guru, for example would not be rock. Is he conscious? Subjective.--Urthogie 20:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

A genre is subjective. It's a category of music by sounds. If rock were to use turntables, it'd still be rock, even if it's borrowing a primarily hip-hop element. There's no such thing as a purely anything. Hip-hop encompasses all that is rapping over drumbeats with samples. If Blondie or the Fatback Band decide to do it, they don't automatically become hip-hop. Mos Def experiments a lot with a live sound, he's still hip-hop. It's an average of all output of an artist, a genre is. Guru would definitely be conscious, as he very rarely makes a point to brag about material possessions, though he does brag about his basketball skills. In way too many songs, Guru expounds upon jazz, the state of the industry, and the state of the world. Someone who's not always conscious is 50 Cent, who primarily makes gangster rap. What else would you call Guru? Golden age, alternative, underground, jazz-rap, the list goes on. You might as well add that the guy is socially conscious. This refusal to acknowledge a "subjective" label is hypocritical. MOD 23:55, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL, please. TheJabberwʘck 01:58, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Modulatum, I can't understand how you completely fail to understand the difference between an obvious genre seperation (hip hop) and a subjective one (conscious). There is no dispute over whether so-and so is hip hop at the hip hop music page. It's only at pages like this. The music press often disagrees on sub genres, but almost never on the main genre. If you fail to recognize this, I don't think your view can gain much acceptence.--Urthogie 10:32, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Whatever. MOD 13:35, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Whether an artist or a recording is "conscious" is probably subjective. (I think we'd need a better definition than the article currently has to be sure. If "conscious" hip hop is by definition the morally best hip hop music, it is more subjective than hip hop music as a whole, but we could get round that just by acknowledging it.) Science has its demarcation problem and I think that most musical genres have theirs. What are our actual options? Is anybody proposing going further than merging with political hip hop? Is anybody strongly opposed to this? Tim Ivorson 11:33, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

A merger wouldn't be too big of a deal, in fact the conscious hip-hop article would benefit as being a section in an article that can serve as a point of reference. MOD 13:35, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Political hip hop is a recognized genre in the music press. Also, its obvious when someone is being political.--Urthogie 13:02, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Concious is not subjective. It's obvious when a rapper is being concious on a song, whether he is right or wrong is a different story. If you dont agree with the message thats different, but being "concious" is not subjective. I think Concious is more broad because it includes Political messages too. If anything Political Hip-hop is under this category--Samil20 13:06, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] npov and significance problems

The significance problem is made clear by the first sentance-- its only a term that refers to a subjective assesment of lyrical content. Perhaps it would go better at wiktionary? The NPOV problem comes in when we start weighing in on whats conscious and whats not.--Urthogie 08:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, but to a certain extent all groupings are subjective. This one may be more so than most, but it is a widely used term. So far, we haven't done a "list of conscious hip hop artists" or anything. If NPOV is a big problem, we can keep it that way, and not even attempt to list conscious hip hop artists. Λυδαcιτγ 00:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it's obvious to see what is concious and what isnt. There is a big seperation within the hip-hop community between "backpackers" and "mainstream"--Samil20 13:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)