Talk:Commonwealth Realm

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[edit] The "Realm of New Zealand" is not an offical name

AVD - how about the Realm of New Zealand? Let me guess, that term is wrong because you say it is? --Lholden 07:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh yeah - that one did slip my mind. --gbambino 17:10, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/nz.html

New Zealand CIA Factbook Entry

long form name: none

short form name: New Zealand


Sorry, LHolden and gbambino, you are both wrong.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 00:22, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The CIA Factbook also claims that the Governor General is Canada's head of state, so I wouldn't count on it as a definitive source. That said, a) Lewis will know better than I what the official name of New Zealand is, and b) this isn't really the place for this discussion. --gbambino 00:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

No "Lewis" does not know better. Additionally, you and "Lewis" entered into this topic. You opened "Pandora's Box", so don't bitch about what comes out eh.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 00:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The Realm of New Zealand is the official name for the territory in which the Queen in right of New Zealand is head of state. New Zealand is only one nation in the Realm. New Zealand its self does not have a long name Brian | (Talk) 01:38, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

No. It is the Dominion of New Zealand and its Dependencies.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 03:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

we've just had this debate on the Dominion of New Zealand talkpage. New Zealand no longer is a Dominion. (see talk page) Brian | (Talk) 04:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The Realm of New Zealand is the territory in which the Queen in right of New Zealand is head of state. The Realm comprises New Zealand, Tokelau and the Ross Dependency, and the self-governing states of the Cook Islands and Niue. The legal basis for the name "Realm of New Zealand" comes from:

  • The Letters Patent Constituting the Office of Governor-General 1983 uses the term "Realm of New Zealand";
  • The 11 February 1952 Accession Proclamation of Queen Elizabeth II proclaims Her Majesty as sovereign of "...this realm";
  • The Royal Titles Act 1953 proclaimed Her Majesty as "Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, New Zealand and Her Other "Realms and Territories"; and
  • With the passage of the Royal Titles Act 1974 Queen Elizabeth II's royal title in New Zealand has been “Elizabeth the Second, By the Grace of God, Queen of New Zealand and Her other "Realms and Territories", Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.”
  • In any New Zealand passports issued post 1978 (after the Citizenship Act 1977) the phrase "The Governor-General in the "Realm of New Zealand" has been used.
  • Section 5(2) Flags, Emblems and Names Protection Act 1981 refers to “realm”
  • The Interpretation Act says "New Zealand" or similar words referring to New Zealand, when used as a territorial description, mean the islands and territories within the "Realm of New Zealand"; but do not include the self-governing State of the Cook Islands, the self-governing State of Niue, Tokelau, or the Ross Dependency.”

This is just summary of proof that we have dropped dominion, and Realm is the offical name used, and that "New Zealand" as a whole does not have a full name, New Zealand is only one nation in the Realm. Brian | (Talk) 06:22, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Look at your above statement,
"have dropped dominion, and Realm is the offical name used"
What this really means is that the successive Governments of New Zealand have chosen to not use the long form name of the Dominion of New Zealand. To re-emphasize we are only talkng about USAGE, and not what the long form name actual is (i.e., it is in fact Dominion of New Zealand).
Bluntly put, the long form name of the Dominion of New Zealand was adopted on Sept. 9, 1907, and offically came into force on Sept. 26, 1907, via a Royal Proclamation. The only way to undo that is via another Act of Parliament (and then perhaps to announce it via a second Royal Proclamation). Barring that, you folkes could write a Royal Letters Patent declaring New Zealand being called the People's Republic of In-bread Sheep-Shaggers, and it still would be called in LAW by the long form name of the Dominion of New Zealand.
ArmchairVexillologistDon 15:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Proclamation of the Dominion of New Zealand was never repealed

Proclamation Declaring that the Colony of New Zealand shall be called and known by the title of the Dominion of New Zealand. London, September 9, 1907.

(Source: The London Gazette, Numb. 28058., p.6149, Tuesday, September 10, 1907)

By the KING.

A PROCLAMATION

Declaring that the Colony of New Zealand shall be called and known by the title of the Dominion of New Zealand.

EDWARD R.& I.

Whereas We have on the Petition of the Members of the Legislative Council and House of Representatives of Our Colony of New Zealand determined that the title of Dominion of New Zealand shall be substituted for that of the Colony of New Zealand as the designation of the said Colony, We have therefore by and with the advice of Our Privy Council thought fit to issue this Our Royal Proclamation and We do ordain, declare and command that on and after the twenty-sixth day of September, one thousand nine hundred and seven, the said Colony of New Zealand and the territory belonging thereto shall be called and known by the title of the Dominion of New Zealand. And We hereby give Our Commands to all Public Departments accordingly.

Given at Our Court at Buckingham Place, this ninth day of September, in the year of Our Lord one thousand nine hundred and seven, and in the seventh year of Our Regin.

GOD save the KING.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 05:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Names of countries

The United Nations periodically publishes a "terminology bulletin" containing "country names" as well as official lists of treaties and the Member States who have signed them. The listing of country names includes the "long form" and "short form" name for each country. Sometimes, the two are identical.

According to this official source, the long form name of Canada is simply "Canada", and the long form name of New Zealand is simply "New Zealand." No other words of any kind. I thought this might be of interest to the readership here. Regards, Newyorkbrad 03:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


No. The long form name of both Canada and New Zealand is listed as none. The word none is ambigious. The short form names are of course Canada and New Zealand, respectively.
ArmchairVexillologistDon 04:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Newyorkbrad 04:14, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Both entries of which proves nothing.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 04:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I guess nothing will convince you, but these are the official names that the government of each country wants used for the most formal official purposes. Regards, Newyorkbrad 04:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I will observe again that the official names of various countries have nothing to do with this article, so there is no point to any of us discussing it here, whatever our views on the matter. JPD (talk) 10:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Geez, I only mentioned the use of "Realm of New Zealand" in New Zealand. This is not simply a question of usage, as Brian sets out above, it is also the legal reality. AVD will no doubt disagree and make some offensive remarks about New Zealand, but that does not change the reality that by Royal Proclamation of 1952, New Zealand's long-form name is either simply New Zealand or the Realm of New Zealand. Either way, as JPD states above, it doesn't change anything about this article really, aside from refuting AVD's assertion that no country uses the term 'realm' in its long-form name. --Lholden 07:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


LHolden your above statement,
"by Royal Proclamation of 1952, New Zealand's long-form name is either simply New Zealand or the Realm of New Zealand."
does not follow. The Royal Styles and Titles Act 1953 does NOT explictly abolish the term Dominion (or Dominion Status). The word Realm was inserted to take the place of the term British Dominion's across the Seas. The word Realm is a non-specific generic term, denoting any country that has a Monarch as a (figure) Head-of-State.


References
[1]. F.R. Scott, "The End of Dominion Status", The Canadian Bar Review, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, pp.725-744, November, (1945).
[2]. W.D. McIntyre, "The Strange Death of Dominion Status", The Journal of Imperial and Commonwealth History, Vol.27, No.2, pp.193-212, (1999).
[3]. J.A. Dabbs, Dei Gratia in Royal Titles, Mouton and Co., The Hague, Netherlands, pp.280, (1971).
ArmchairVexillologistDon 16:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
The Realm of New Zealand" exists, it is the official name for the territory in which the Queen in right of New Zealand is head of state. New Zealand is only one nation in the Realm. The realm also includes Tokelau and the Ross Dependency, and the self-governing states of the Cook Islands and Niue.
Even the royal offical website recognises the term [1]
as lewis has said it doesn't change anything about this article really, aside from refuting AVD's assertion that no country uses the term 'realm' in its long-form name. Brian | (Talk) 18:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


Brian, the long form name for the whole shah-bang is,

Dominion of New Zealand and its Dependencies

where the dependencies (of the Dominion of New Zealand) have the following designations,

Associated State of the Cook Islands,

Associated State of Niue,

Ross Dependency,

Territory of Tokelau.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 21:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

no:
“ I. We do hereby constitute, order, and declare that there shall be, in and over Our Realm of New Zealand, which comprises

(a) New Zealand; and
(b) The self-governing state of the Cook Islands; and
(c) The self-governing state of Niue; and
(d) Tokelau; and
(e) The Ross Dependency

 ”

—Letters Patent constituting the office of Governor-General of New Zealand

Brian | (Talk) 21:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

A Royal Letters Patent can not over-rule an Act of Parliament (or a Royal Proclamation). The original names are still in legal force regardless of the Royal Letters Patent issued by the Government of New Zealand.
ArmchairVexillologistDon 21:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Ah, I did actually get the above wrong; technically New Zealand's long-form name isn't the "Realm of New Zealand"; as Brian states above the "Realm of New Zealand" is a different entity from New Zealand proper; which is a part of the realm.
Secondly, the Royal Styles and Titles Act 1953 AVD quotes is the relevant Act of the Parliament of the UK; however the Act relevant to New Zealand is the Royal Titles Act 1953 (and the later 1974 Act), which as Brian noted above uses the term "Realm"; this supported the 1952 Royal Proclamation.
Anyway, none of this changes the article in question. What it does show is that the term "Commonwealth Realms" might not be the most accurate term, but it is certainly a verifiable term - otherwise, the Queen's website would be wrong... --Lholden 19:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

LHolden, I assume that you are refering to this speech.

http://www.gg.govt.nz/media/speeches.asp?type=constitutional&ID=229

This "piece-of-dribble" spouted by your (ex-)Governor-General does not a legal precedent make. It is only their bloody OPINION, nothing more, nothing less. Oi.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 21:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh so learned articles, professors, government, even HE the Governor-General's office, are wrong are they? Brian | (Talk) 21:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Brian, read carefully what the articles actually say, before you pass judgement.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 21:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Firstly AVD, I've read most of the key constitutional law books in question (mainly Philip Joseph, Constitutional and Administrative Law in New Zealand); secondly our former Governor-General was a Judge of our High Court, hence she knows constitutional law better than you or I; Third even if we accept your claim that a statute and Letters Patent doesn't over rule a Proclamation (Which in my view is incorrect- statute law is supreme because of Parliamentary sovereignty, refer Dicey; thus a proclamation can be impliedly repealed by statute) then what of the 1952 Proclamation of QEII's accession to the throne, which uses the term "realm"? Is that incorrect as well? --Lholden 23:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

LHolden, please brush up on your legal terms. An Act of Parliament is a statute. A Letters Patent is not a statute. Parliamentary Sovereignty ONLY applies to a statute. If you are going to make a Constitutional Law arguement, please do me the courtesy of getting your terms right eh.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 03:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry AVD, you've got your wires crossed here. Parliamentary sovereignty means that statute law is supreme. I didn't say that Parliamentary sovereignty applied equally to Letters Patent (i.e. that statute and letters patent are supreme); the point is that a statute is supreme law; supreme to Letters Patent and Proclamations. It follows therefore that your claim that the 1907 proclamation is still in force is incorrect; ipso facto New Zealand's long-form name is not the Dominion of New Zealand. --Lholden 03:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

No. Letters Patent are not a statute (i.e., Parliamentary Sovereignty ONLY applies to statutes). Please look up the legal definition of a statute. Get back to me when you get your legal terms straight there bub.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 04:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

AVD, I didn't say that letters patent are statutes. I was answering your claim that a Letters Patent and a statute (which is what we have here - the Letters Patent 1983 using the term "realm" and the Royal Titles Act 1953) do not repeal the proclamation of 1907. --Lholden 09:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

LHolden, I said that a Letters Patent can NOT over-rule an Act of Parliament (i.e., a statute) or a Proclamation. The ONLY tdocumen that mentions the Realm of New Zealand is the Letters Patent of 1983. NOTHING ELSE. Therefore the Proclamation of 1907 that declared the Dominion of New Zealand is still in legal force.

Additionally, try as you might, the Royal Styles and Titles Act 1953 does NOT change the long form name of the Dominion of New Zealand to the Realm of New Zealand. In no way, shape, or form does it do this. Not even close eh! Nice try, but no cigar.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 09:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Did you read what I posted above? "Realm of New Zealand" in not just mentioned in the Letters Patent. It is a real term, perhaps you need to brush up on your knowledge of New Zealand Brian | (Talk) 09:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Yawn. The issue isn't whether a Letters Patent can overrule an Act of Parliament or not. The issue is that the Proclamation can be overruled by an Act of Parliament (i.e. the 1953 one, which is in itself derived from the Proclamation of 1952). The 1983 Letters Patent confirms this change. A statute does not need to explicitly state what it repeals, by the doctrine of implied repeal - that is, the use of the term "realm" instead of "dominion" - the proclamation of 1907 was impliedly repealed in 1952, then in statute (supreme to both Proclamation and Letters Patent) and confirmed again in 1983. --Lholden 09:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

"Double-Yawn". The use of the word Realm instead of British Dominions across the Seas does NOT change any long form name of ANY country. Your assertion that the Proclamation of 1907 has been implied repealed via the Royal Styles and Titles Act 1953 illustrates a complete ignorance of the legislative process.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 10:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not talking about the Royal Styles and Titles Act 1953, that's the UK statute... I'm talking about the New Zealand Royal Titles Act 1953; in any case that Act was based on a Proclamation itself using the term realm. The doctrine of implied repeal is pretty clear, given that the term "Realm of New Zealand" appears in the Letters Patent of 1983, the 1907 proclamation has clearly been impliedly repealed.--Lholden 10:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

LHolden, PLEASE READ the New Zealand Royal Styles and Titles Act 1953, and carefully EXAMINE its PRECISE WORDING eh,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_of_New_Zealand

Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, New Zealand and Her Other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.

— Royal Titles Act 1953 (NZ), s 2; Royal Titles Proclamation (1953) II New Zealand Gazette 851


Therefore, via this "lovely" New Zealand notion of the "Doctrine of Implied Repeal" we would have not only long form name the so-called Realm of New Zealand, one would also have the long form name of the Realm of the United Kingdom.

Since this legal interpretation would create the ABSURD term of the Realm of the United Kingdom, then the term Realm of the New Zealand is equally IN-VALID.

The ONLY REASONABLE INTERPRETATION is the the shorter terms of the United Kingdom, New Zealand, and Realm were inserted for BRIEVITY (i.e., to DUMB-DOWN the wording, nothing more!) in the place of the longer terms the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the Dominion of New Zealand,and the British Dominions across the Seas.

Blunty put, NO EXPLICIT NAME CHANGES of the COUNTRIES CONCERNED are contained within theNew Zealand Royal Styles and Titles Act 1953.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 15:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

AVD - firstly, the title of the Act in question, repealed in 1974, is the Royal Titles Act 1953. Secondly, I never said the New Zealand Act applied to the United Kingdom. Logically, it doesn't. Hence your claim that because the title doesn't apply to the UK it cannot also apply to New Zealand is incorrect.
If you read what I said above, which I suspect you haven't, you'll see that the doctrine of implied repeal (which is a well settled doctrine in common law countries, it's not simply a New Zealand invention) follows because of the 1952 proclamation, the 1953 Act, and the 1983 Letters Patent. This is not simply my view, it's also the view of the learned law professor Philip A Joseph.
Finally, your argument that the use of "Realm" instead of "Dominion" is a dumbing-down of the use of the term is incorrect. As Brian notes below, the reason for the use of "realm" in place of "dominion" is because of the 1947 adoption in New Zealand of the Statute of Westminster 1931, clearly the intention was to emphasise New Zealand's greater independence from the UK. For example, New Zealand's armed forces became legally distinct for those of the United Kingdom. --Lholden 07:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
LHolden, the bottom line is to over-rule the Royal Proclamation of 1907 you need a Statute (i.e., an Act of Parliament). You have not been able to produce ONE STATUTE that explicitly re-defines the long form name of the country as the Realm of New Zealand. NOT ONE STATUTE. Until you can pull that out of your ass, the Proclamation of the Dominion of New Zealand is still in legal force. The Letters Patent of 1983 defines the USAGE of the term Realm of New Zealand, but does not CHANGE to legal name from Dominion of New Zealand, to Realm of New Zealand. As much as you would like this to be so, legally it is not so. I challenge you to bring someone knowledgable about the workings of the LAW into this discussion as you seem to me to be incapable of grasping certain "legal mechanics" as it pertains to the long form names of countries. Whether you are being willfully ignorant and inane, or you just can not fathom these concepts, I find me-self "talking-to-a-brick", with regards to you.
ArmchairVexillologistDon 22:04, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
We could do without the personal abuse thanks AVD. Brian and myself have quoted a number of learned academics and others in this debate. I find it strange that, after quoting a learned professor of constitutional law, a former Governor-General who was also a High Court judge, and all the relevant enactments Brian and I are both still wrong, whereas your position that the doctrine of implied repeal doesn't apply and the 1907 proclamation is still in legal force is correct. Following your argument, if the Letters Patent defines the use of the term "Realm of New Zealand", then New Zealand's long-form name is still the "Dominion of New Zealand"? With respect, that is an absurd reading of the law and in my view your comment as to my legal abilities really applies to yourself. As I have stated above, the doctrine of implied repeal applies in this instance. The ratification of the Statute of Westminster 1947 began a process confirmed by the Letters Patent 1983 that New Zealand's long-form name is the Realm of New Zealand. This was confirmed by the Proclamation of 1952, the Royal Titles Act of 1953, the Interpretation Act and the Letters Patent. Sorry AVD, the legal weight falls to the Realm of New Zealand being our long-form name. --Lholden 01:35, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


LHolden, you wrote above,

"Sorry AVD, the legal weight falls to the Realm of New Zealand being our long-form name"


Really, so how about this then eh,

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/nz.html

New Zealand CIA Factbook Entry

long form name: none

short form name: New Zealand


If so, then why is Realm of New Zealand NOT listed as the long form name of New Zealand on the CIA factbook website?

ArmchairVexillologistDon 03:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the CIA *gasp* is wrong? More importantly, why is Philip A Joseph wrong? --Lholden 07:42, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Maybe the CIA is wrong, perhaps. I don't think so though. The original Dominions had the long form names the Dominion of Canada, the Commonwealth of Australia, the Dominion of New Zealand, the Dominion of Newfoundland, the Union of South Africa, the Dominion of India, and the Dominion of Pakistan. The later three Dominions subsequently became Republics. The Dominion of Newfoundland of acceded to Dominion of Canada in 1949. The Commonwealth of Australia still uses its long form name as it was written into its constitution. Canada had its long form name (i.e., the Dominion of Canada) first explicitly mentioned in the first amendment of the BNA Act, (i.e., British North America 1871). New Zealand had its long form name (i.e., the Dominion of New Zealand) offically conferred in the Royal Proclamation of 1907.
With regard to Dr. Philip A. Joseph, why don't you send him in here to Wikipedia so he can answer that question himself?
ArmchairVexillologistDon 16:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

One of the leading texts on New Zealand constitutional law says that:

“ New Zealand officially discarded the term ['Dominion'] in 1953, when it adopted the style "Realm of New Zealand". ”

— Philip A Joseph Constitutional and Administrative Law in New Zealand (2 ed, Brookers, Wellington, 2001) 162.

The New Zealand Official Yearbook states that:

“ by 1955 it was considered that 'dominion' implied a subordinate role to the United Kingdom, and [the] official style was changed to the 'Realm of New Zealand' which recognised the Queen's position as constitutional head of New Zealand ... without implying a subordinate role to the United Kingdom ”

—Statistics New Zealand New Zealand Official Yearbook 2000 (David Bateman, Auckland, 2000) 55.

Brian | (Talk) 10:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect to all concerned, this argument does not seem to have anything to do with the content of the article. Could you all please either wind it up or take it offline or to some other more appropriate place. Or, since AVD is the driver here, if he really thinks this discussion belongs here, could he please submit an actual proposal for text he would like to change or insert, so that there is something relevant that we can debate. Thanks. --Chris Bennett 20:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, I believe that the title of this article Commonwealth Realm should be changed to a Queens' Realm within the Commonwealth . How is that for a suggestion then eh?

ArmchairVexillologistDon 20:36, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Find a cited use of the term and it might be considerable for a mention within this article. Otherwise, it's simply original research. --gbambino 20:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
AVD, if I correctly understand your objection to the current title of the article, it is that you believe the term Commonwealth Realm has no statutory basis. Accepting, purely for the sake of argument, that this objection is both factually correct and relevant, what is the statutory basis for your proposed replacement? Also, the phrase suggests that there is a Queens' Realm that is not within the Commonwealth. What is it? --Chris Bennett 21:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


William Crampton, Flags of the World, Dorset Press, New York, USA, pp.160, (1990).

p.12, Antigua and Barbuda, established as a Queens' Realm of the Commonwealth 1 Novemeber 1981,

p.13, Commonwealth of Australia, a Queens' Realm of the Commonwealth established 1 January 1901,

p.15, Commonwealth of The Bahamas, a Queens' Realm of the Commonwealth established 10 July 1973,

p.17, Barbados, a Queens' Realm of the Commonwealth established 30 November 1966,

p.18, Belize, a Queens' Realm of the Commonwealth established 21 September 1981,

p.24, Canada, a Queens' Realm of the Commonwealth established 1 July 1867,

p.48, Grenada, a Queens' Realm of the Commonwealth established 2 February 1974,

p.58, Jamaica, established as a Queens' Realm of the Commonwealth 6 August 1962,

p.74, New Zealand, established as a Dominion 26 September 1907,

p.79, Papua New Guinea, established as a Queens' Realm of the Commonwealth 16 September 1975,

p.84, St. Christopher-Nevis, established as a Queens' Realm of the Commonwealth 19 September 1983,

p.84, Saint Lucia, established as a Queens' Realm of the Commonwealth 22 February 1979,

p.85, St. Vincent and The Grenadines, established as a Queens' Realm of the Commonwealth 27 October 1979,

p.89, Solomon Islands, established as a Queens' Realm of the Commonwealth 7 July 1978,

p.98, Tuvalu, established as a Queens' Realm of the Commonwealth 1 October 1978,

p.101, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 22:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

And the reason we should prefer this evidence to, say, Hansard is what? Does Crampton cite an Act of Parliament, or a Royal Proclamation, or any other statutory (or authoritative) source comparable to those that you have yourself cited in this debate for this usage? Or, indeed, any source at all? All I see here is evidence that a pithy phrase such as Commonwealth Realm is actually needed.
Also, you didn't address my other question: What Queen's realm is not of the Commonwealth? --Chris Bennett 22:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Well said Chris. It seems strange to me that after putting across a terse case based on constitutional law, AVD now cites Crampton as proof of an alternative (and in my view unduly complex) name for the article. As Chris states, the name Commonwealth Realm seems to be the most pithy in this instance.
Oh, and BTW AVD - why don't you get Mr Crampton to come here and confirm what he said to be correct? If it's good enough for Prof Joseph, it should be good enough for Crampton ;-)
--Lholden 01:59, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


Well guys, it comes down to this, I have debated here in good faith. You can look at the information that I have provided and think it over. What you do with what I have said is up to you. Food-for-thought, if this was a courtroom or a lecture hall in academia, I would of been more motivated to take both of you "to-the-carpet" piece by piece.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 02:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


That last comment shows that you weren't really debating in good faith. Your other offensive remarks against myself and to my country also confirm a lack of good faith. Moreover, the lack of any point to the debate, other than proving some esoteric point. It was not until Crampton was quoted that we actually heard exactly what it was you wanted the article renamed as. With respect, your efforts in researching this point were really wasted because of this. --Lholden 07:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


I take AVD's last comment to mean that he does not wish to pursue this debate any further. Perhaps, as he suggests, we can all chew over his comments offline as we see fit, and consider the matter closed. --Chris Bennett 17:11, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Australian Referendum

Normally I wouldn't feel the need to justify a fairly minor reworking of two sentences, but given the heat this article has generated to date... I felt the original bald statement "A referendum held in 1999 was defeated" was rather misleading, even allowing for the qualification that "republicans felt...". In context, the sentence implied (to me) that the proposal was for a republic, which is was not. It was a proposal for a particular model of republic. The misinterpretation was not greatly relieved by the "clarification" so I reworked the section accordingly.FrankDynan 16:37, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] "Commonwealth Realm" is not a bona-fide term, its a euphemism for Dominion

This article in my opinion is highly suspect, and misleading (e.g., for the primary and high school students who come here). The phrase "Commonwealth Realm" is not a bona-fide term, its just a euphemism for Dominion. I know this an old arguement between me and other Wikipedians, but I feel a caveat about the euphimism-type nature of the "Commonwealth Realm" phrase should be added to this Wikipedia article. Just added for your consideration.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 15:03, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

What would the wording of the proposed caveat be? --Lholden 19:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
What makes a term "bona-fide"? To call it a euphemism for Dominion is slightly missing the point, but I would agree with a caveat pointing out that the term is not widely used. JPD (talk) 12:26, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
It could be pointed out that realm is a euphamism for dominion, but Realm is not a euphamism for Dominion - there's a difference between the word dominion used simply as a noun, and Dominion used as a title. The latter was used in conjunction with Canada, Australia and New Zealand specifically to differentiate them from the United Kingdom (see: Canada's name: Adoption of Dominion); Realm, on the other hand, was adopted explicitly to end the subordinate association with the title Dominion and to point out that all the countries under the Commonwealth Crown were equal. But, each country, including the UK, remains a dominion of the Crown.
I could agree, however, to mention that the term Commonwealth Realm is not popularly used. --G2bambino 15:19, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


A King/Queen is the Sovereign of a Kingdom, Dominion, Union, Commonwealth. They are by virtue of a common Sovereign the same Feudal Rank. The reason the Kingdom of Canada was not bestowed in 1867 was the fear of Canada possibly establishing its own Canadian Royal Family. The long form name(s) of the Dominion of Canada, Union of Canada, Commonwealth of Canada do not explicitly imply the establishment of a "local Royal Family". The caveat is that neither is the possibility excluded.

G2bambino wrote,

"Realm, on the other hand, was adopted explicitly to end the subordinate association with the title Dominion and to point out that all the countries under the Commonwealth Crown were equal."

That is a common misconception of history, perpetuated by Academia. The terms Dominion, Union, Commonwealth are not subordinate to the term Kingdom. They are of equal Feudal Rank.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 19:34, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh dear, here we go again... not that I really want to debate this issue again, but suffice to say that it makes little sense to say the term "Dominion" is not subordinate when the title "Realm" is now used, post Statute of Westminster 1931. The caveat proposed makes no sense - none of the Commonwealth Realms mentioned could have established their own individual monarchies prior to the Statute of Westminster, it simply wasn't a legal possibility. --Lholden 20:19, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
AVD - Your first omission is that a realm is of the same rank as a dominion or kingdom; the Miriam-Webster definition of realm is:
Main Entry: realm
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English realme, from Anglo-French, alteration of Old French reiame, from Latin regimen control -- more at REGIMEN
1 : KINGDOM 2
2 : SPHERE, DOMAIN [or, dominion]
3 : a primary marine or terrestrial biogeographic division of the earth's surface
And secondly, you also disregard the fact that the Colonial Office in London disliked the term "Kingdom of Canada" because it had a tone deemed too pretentious for a fledgling country - hence Dominion was used to reflect a monarchical nature, but on a lesser level to the Imperial mother Kingdom. Even Sir John A. bemoaned the lower stature of the title Dominion. Thus, once all nations under the pan-Commonwealth Crown were deemed to be equal to one another, the idea of a subsidiary title of Dominion could no longer apply - and Realm replaced it.
If you so strongly believe that the above is wrong, and the title "Dominion" truly is analogous to "Realm", then you'd have to concede that the United Kingdom is today a Dominion - but is there any reference to the Commonwealth Dominions? --G2bambino 20:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


G2bambino,

Sir John A. MacDonald intended this,

"Had a different course been pursued—for instance, had Canada been declared to be an auxiliary Kingdom, as it was in the Canadian draft of the Bill—I feel sure (almost) that the Australian Colonies would, ere this, have been applying to be placed at the same rank as ‘The Kingdom of Canada.’ "

Please note Sir John A. MacDonalds' explicit use of the term an auxillary Kingdom (i.e., one with the option of establishing its own local "Canadian" Royal Family). The term Kingdom was only applied to the Mother-Country. There is no explicit subordination of the terms Dominion, Union, Commonwealth to that of a Kingdom, as their Feudal Ranks are equal (i.e, their Sovereign is a King/Queen).


Unfinished work (i). The Dominion of Canada as the intended name.

Sir John A Mac Donald 1889 Letter


Bold text: Ewart's large type-face used,

Blue text: Sir John A MacDonald's own words,

Italised text:' Ewart's own italised text.


From J.S. Ewart, The Kingdom Papers, Volume II, Mc Clelland, Goodchild, and Stewart, Toronto, Canada, pp. 384-385, (1912-1917).


Sir John’s Testimony.—Twenty-two years later after the passing of our constitution act, Sir John was still resentful at the failure of Colonial Office sympathy with the great project of founding a Kingdom, and writing to Lord Krutsford (18 July, 1889) he said—

“A great opportunity was lost in 1867, when the Dominion was formed out of several provinces. This remarked event in the history of the British Empire passed almost without notice. The new Confederation had, at the time of the union, about the same population as the thirteen colonies when they rebelled and formed a nation imbued with the bitterest feelings of hostility towards England—feelings, which by the way, exist in as offensive a form now they did on the day of the ‘declaration of independence.’

“The declaration of all B.N.A. provinces, that they desired one Dominion to remain a portion of the Empire, showed what wise government and generous treatment would do, and should have been marked as an epoch in the history of England. This probably would have been the case had Lord Carnarvon, who had Colonial Minister had ‘sat at the cradle’ of the new Dominion, remained in office. His ill-omened resignation was followed by the appointment of the late Duke of Buckingham, who had as his advisor the then Governor-General, Lord Monck—both good men, certainly, but quite unable from the constitution of their minds, to rise to the occasion. The Union was treated by them as if the B.N.A. Act were a private Bill uniting two or three English parishes. Had a different course been pursued—for instance, had Canada been declared to be an auxiliary Kingdom, as it was in the Canadian draft of the Bill—I feel sure (almost) that the Australian Colonies would, ere this, have been applying to be placed at the same rank as ‘The Kingdom of Canada.’

“Pray pardon this long discursive letter, which I have been tempted to bore you with by the pleasant and cool breezes of the Lower St. Lawrence, where I am spending so weeks to escape the heat of Ottawa, and by the hope that, the time this reaches you, you will have been able to get away from official cares.

“Should I be able to visit England this year, I shall refrain from pressing my views on Her Majesty’s Government at even greater length than I now venture to trouble your lordship with.


“Meanwhile, believe me, dear Lord Knutsford,

“Faithfully yours,

“John A. MacDonald.”


“P.S.—On reading the above over, I see that it will convey the impression that the change in the title from Kingdom to Dominion was caused by the Duke of Buckingham. That is not so. It was made at the instance of Lord Derby, then Foreign Minister, who feared the first name would wound the sensibilities of the Yankees. I mentioned this to Lord Beaconsfield at Hughenden in 1878, who replied: ‘I was not aware of that circumstance, but it is so like Derby, a very good fellow but one who lives in a region of perpetual funk.’—J.A.M.D.”


Note: Sir Joseph Pope, published the above letter of Sir John A MacDonald, in his book Sir John A MacDonald, Vol. I., pp. 311-313, and in Sir Joseph's letters to the Ottawa Citizen (newspaper) of July 26, 1917.
ArmchairVexillologistDon 21:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I fail to follow your logic. Dominion was used between 1867 and 1931 to explicitly differentiate the UK from the former colonies that were still then under the sovereignty of the British Crown. I see no evidence of Sir John A. planning for a separate Canadian Royal Family in the future, only his disappointment with what he clearly viewed as a title inferior to that of Kingdom. Regardless, use of the title Dominion ceased in reference to countries that shared a pan-Commonwealth crown equally with the UK after 1931. The onus is on you to prove that its use continues today, and that there exists some group of countries dubbed the Commonwealth Dominions. --G2bambino 21:37, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


The "Commonwealth Realms" (all 16 of them) have as their Sovereign the British Monarch (i.e., Queen Elizabeth II). Thus, is essense we are still "under the sovereignity of the British Crown" . There is NO THRONE, but that of Britain.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 22:24, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry AVD, the Statute of Westminster 1931 begs to differ. Thus it follows that the countries who adopted the Statute were no longer Dominions. --Lholden 22:55, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Australia has the British Monarch as sovereign as much as Britain has the Jamaican Monarch as sovereign. Certainly they all have Elizabeth II as their Queen, but she's only the British Monarch in the UK. I'm afraid, AVD, that Lewis is right - your views are about 76 years out of date. And I still see no evidence of a group of countries dubbed the Commonwealth Dominions. --G2bambino 23:00, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


G2bambino and LHolden, perhaps you two should actual READ the text of the Statute of Westminster 1931 more carefully.

http://www.gov.ns.ca/legislature/legc/westmins.htm

1. In this Act the expression "Dominion" means any of the following Dominions, that is to say, the Dominion of Canada, the Commonwealth of Australia, the Dominion of New Zealand, the Union of South Africa, the Irish Free State and Newfoundland.

G2bambino, I never gave any credence to the term Commonwealth Dominion, that is your "invention". The only bona-fide term within the Statute of Westminster 1931 is Dominion.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 04:06, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's a list of the names of the states to which the Act applies to. The term "realm" isn't used there as the long-title names listed are the actual names of the states in question at the time when the Act was passed. Your argument above was that: "The "Commonwealth Realms" (all 16 of them) have as their Sovereign the British Monarch (i.e., Queen Elizabeth II). Thus, is essense we are still "under the sovereignity of the British Crown" ." which is incorrect, as the Statute of Westminster divided the Crown legally between the individual realms of the Commonwealth - irrespective of whether the Sovereign might only reside in the UK. Virtually every legal enactment since then has used the term "realm" - and as I've pointed out to you before, the legal title for all of New Zealand's territories and dependencies is the Realm of New Zealand. --Lholden 07:34, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


The Royal Styles and Titles Act 1953 (and its companion Royal Proclamation 1953) does not abolish the term Dominion. The generic term Realm is used and nowhere is this "fictional term" Commonwealth Realm to be seen in the text. NOWHERE, bub.

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/britstyles.htm#1953

The salient text is as follows,

Our style and titles shall henceforth be accepted, taken and used as the same are set forth in manner and form following, that is to say, the same shall be expressed in the English tongue by these words:—
"Elizabeth II, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith ".
And in the Latin tongue by these words:—
" Elizabeth II, Dei Gratia Britanniarum Regnorumque Suorum Ceterorum Regina, Consortionis Populorum Princeps, Fidei Defensor ".

It is quite ridiculous the lengths that some Academics take the phrase,

"Her other Realms and Territories"

in an attempt to imply the abolishment of the term Dominion. It truely is one the greatest, most blatant examples of "give an inch, and they take a mile!"

ArmchairVexillologistDon 08:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I've explained the legal reason for this to you before, AVD. It is because of the doctrine of implied repeal. This is not simply an academic invention created to justify changes in legalese, it is a fundamental tenant of the common law. If you cannot accept that the learned academics are correct, then that is not up for discussion here. What is to be discussed is what changes, if any, should be made to the article. You have rejected Gavin's suggested term "Commonwealth Dominion", which really is the only logical other name this article could have. The caveat you suggested - to state that under Dominion status, the states in question could possibly establish their own monarchies - is a legal and historical nonsense. The only conclusion to draw from this is that you are taking issue with the term because it does not fit with your view of the British monarchy. --Lholden 09:10, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


Look it, you are not the sole judge of "the Doctrine of Implied Repeal". Frankly, I have always found you quite arrogant, and ignorant.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 09:50, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Well that's nice. If stating facts and putting forward logical arguments is arrogance, then I am, but I am not ignorant. And you're right, I'm not the sole judge of the Doctrine of implied repeal. However, I have quoted from legal academics before who confirm the use of the term realm. If you cannot tell us why they are wrong, or put forward any suggestions as to how this article should be amended, then this discussion is pointless. --Lholden 10:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

This is silly. Whether or not "Dominion" has been repealed does not affect whether "Commonwealth Realms" is a valid term. Neither does whether Dominion and Realm are technically equal. Whether or not it would be valid to refer to the various countries today as Dominions, the fact is that the term most often used (which admittedly isn't very often) to refer to them collectively is "Commonwealth Realms". The change is due to the subordinate connotations which "dominion" had acquired when used in the British context, whether subordinance is technically in the meaning or not. You may consider this a "euphemism", but it was done to reflect an actual change in the situation. JPD (talk) 12:17, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Precisely; and thank you for summing it up so succinctly.
There is evidence of the use of the term "Commonwealth Realm" after 1931. There is no evidence of the use of the term "Commonwealth Dominion." Even if Canada's official name was "The Great Federated Dominion in the North Called Canada and oh, Did We Mention it is a Dominion?" it would still be classified as a Commonwealth Realm. I move that this silly discussion be closed, and if AVD still has issue with the term "Commonwealth Realm", he can take it up with those who seem to have originated it: the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office. --G2bambino 16:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

LHolden, JPD, G2Bambino ... oh really? Please quote a CONSTITUTIONAL DOCUMENT since 1931 that explicitly states the term "Commonwealth Realm" in the statutory portion (and/or schedule) of the the statutory instrument (i.e., Royal Proclamation, Statute (i.e., Act of Parliament), Royal Letters Patent, Royal Warrant, Order-in-Council).


Put-up or shut-up.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 19:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

For the, I think, fourth time: please point to any document that explicitly states the term "Commonwealth Dominion," whether within Royal Proclamation, Statute, Letters Patent, Royal Warrant or Order-in-Council. Until then, the evidence points only to the use of the term "Commonwealth Realm," and to assert anything otherwise would be original research. --G2bambino 19:55, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
And again: We don't need to produce any constitutional documents to that effect. The use of "realm" in place of "dominion" in itself is evidence of the term. That the words "Commonwealth" and "Realm" don't appear together doesn't change this fact. --Lholden 20:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


LHolden, JPD, G2Bambino, I re-state the following,

The Royal Styles and Titles Act 1953 (and its companion Royal Proclamation 1953) does not abolish the term Dominion. The generic term Realm is used and nowhere is this "fictional term" Commonwealth Realm to be seen in the text. NOWHERE, bub.
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/britstyles.htm#1953
The salient text is as follows,
Our style and titles shall henceforth be accepted, taken and used as the same are set forth in manner and form following, that is to say, the same shall be expressed in the English tongue by these words:—
"Elizabeth II, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith ".
And in the Latin tongue by these words:—
" Elizabeth II, Dei Gratia Britanniarum Regnorumque Suorum Ceterorum Regina, Consortionis Populorum Princeps, Fidei Defensor ".
It is quite ridiculous the lengths that some Academics take the phrase,
"Her other Realms and Territories"
in an attempt to imply the abolishment of the term Dominion.

The inescapable point-in-fact is that the phrase,

"Her other Realms and Territories"

does not create, validate, establish, or enshrine the term Commonwealth Realm as a replacement for Dominion. I know it is "difficult" to fathom for "some", however the USAGE of the word REALM is just of generic convenience (nothing more, nothing less). Of the 16 so-called "Commonwealth Realms", there is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (a Unitary Kingdom), and 15 Dominions (some are Federal Dominions, whilst others are Unitary Dominions).

ArmchairVexillologistDon 21:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

So what are you proposing to change about the article? Change its name to "Her Majesty's Commonwealth (d)ominions"? Surely if what you've said above is true, the term "Commonwealth kingdoms" could also be used, since the states are legally distinct monarchies, albeit with a shared Head of state. --Lholden 21:09, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

What I am saying is that the term Commonwealth Realm is simply a euphemism for the legally defined term of Dominion (or Dominion Status). Please look up the definition of the word euphemism.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 21:19, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

AVD says: the USAGE of the word REALM is just of generic convenience (nothing more, nothing less). That's exactly the point: WP is an encyclopedia, not a constitutional document, and therefore should reflect ordinary usage.

To the extent that there is a real issue here, it's one about how WP should reflect evolution in usage. The simple fact of the matter is that the term dominion is becoming obsolete as a way to describe a country which shares a monarch with Britain. I'm old enough to remember when it was still standard usage, which was well into the 1960s, but it isn't standard usage any longer.

I wonder if this issue could be addressed within the Dominion article rather than here. That article currently has the following text:

Dominion also remains a term used for self-governing countries within the Commonwealth of Nations, other than the United Kingdom, where the British Monarch remains head of state. However, those countries which were previously referred to as Dominions are now independent kingdoms where the sovereign reigns no longer as the British Monarch, but as Monarch of each nation in its own right. This was demonstrated in the proclamation of Queen Elizabeth II's new titles in 1953, where she was to be called Queen "of her other Realms and Territories," thereby replacing "dominion" with another mediaeval French word with the same connotation, "realm" (from royaume). Thus, today the former Dominions of the Empire (including the UK) are known as Commonwealth Realms.

With some slight modifications and extensions I think this could address the question of changes in usage. For example:

Dominion remains a term used for self-governing countries within the Commonwealth of Nations, other than the United Kingdom, where the British Monarch remains head of state. However, those countries which were previously referred to as Dominions are now independent kingdoms where the sovereign no longer reigns as the British Monarch, but as Monarch of each nation in its own right. This concept was demonstrated in established by the proclamation of Queen Elizabeth II's new titles in 1953, where she was to be called Queen "of her other Realms and Territories," thereby replacing "dominion" with another mediaeval French word with the same connotation formal meaning, "realm" (from royaume), but which did not carry any connotation of subordination to the United Kingdom. Thus, today the former Dominions of the Empire (including the UK) are known as Commonwealth Realms. While the term "Dominion" is still used to refer to a country where the British Monarch is the head of state, it is increasingly being replaced by the term "Realm". Both terms are unambiguous when used in a Commonwealth context, but on the rare occasions it is necessary to refer to the realms collectively in a different context, they may be distinguished from other realms as Commonwealth Realms.

Is this a viable approach? --Chris Bennett 21:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello Chris Bennett, I find your suggestions very viable indeed. In my opinion they improve the clarity and accuracy of this article "by leaps and bounds" (in my opinion).
http://www.royalgenes.biz/alt.talk.royalty/thread343.html
ArmchairVexillologistDon 02:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


OK then, here is a draft second paragraph for this article rather than Dominion:
A self-governing country within the Commonwealth of Nations, other than the United Kingdom, where the British Monarch remains head of state has long been known as a Dominion. However, those countries are now independent kingdoms, where the sovereign no longer reigns as the British Monarch, but as Monarch of each nation in its own right. This concept was established by the proclamation of Queen Elizabeth II's new titles in 1953, where she was called Queen "of her other Realms and Territories," thereby replacing "Dominion" with another mediaeval French word with the same formal meaning, "Realm" (from royaume), but which did not carry any connotation of subordination to the United Kingdom. While the term "Dominion" is still used to refer to a country where the British Monarch is the head of state, it is increasingly being replaced by the term "Realm". Both terms are unambiguous when used in a Commonwealth context, but on the rare occasions it is necessary to refer to these realms collectively in a different context, they may be distinguished from other realms as Commonwealth Realms.
I recognise its not perfect, for example it repeats some material already in the first paragraph. But if this text is generally acceptable then I can put it in the article and people can tweak it from there using a more normal editorial process. --Chris Bennett 03:27, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello Chris Bennett, I thank you very much for your kind suggestion on the wording of this article. I am in completely agreement with your added text/draft, shown above. In my opinion it clarifies the "informal nature" of the term "Commonwealth Realm" as a comprimise substitute term settled on in 1953 to refer to the 1 Unitary Kingdom of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland ands its co-equal 15 British Dominions (Federal Dominions and Unitary Dominions), in other words the 16 Constitutional-Monachies within the British Commonwealth of Nations that have Queen Elizabeth II as their Sovereign.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 03:43, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

It seems generally acceptable to me, and if AVD is ok with it, it's probably a good idea. I don't really see how it is necessary, since the article did not imply that it was a legally defined term, and noone here claimed that it was, so AVD's references to consitutional documents were largely red herrings. I'm not sure that the term did originate in 1953 (when there were a lot less than 16, and the word "British" was removed from just about everything, even in legal documents), and I do think that if we bother to clarify the "informal nature" of the term, we really should saying something about it's lack of wide use. JPD (talk) 12:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

JPD, my references to Constitutional Documents were red-herrings? What do you think the Royal Styles and Titles Acts (1901, 1917, 1927, 1948, 1953) and their companion Royal Proclamations were? Toilet paper?
ArmchairVexillologistDon 15:49, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Since the text addressses AVD's concerns and is generally acceptable to JPD. I'm going to add it with one minor change to address JPD's concern about "origination" in 1953. While I believe this is its first use in a formal context, I don't know for sure, so I propose to replace "established by" with "enumnciated in". As to "saying something about it's lack of wide use", I believe the phrase "rare occasions" address that concern. --Chris Bennett 16:18, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
My concern was about the AVD's comment about the term "Commonwealth Realms", rather than your sentence, which discusses the concept of separate dominions, but the change is still an improvement, I think. Sorry for missing the "rare occasions"! AVD, if you know the different between red herrings and toilet paper then read what I said again carefully. Constitutional documents didn't come into the discussion until the long name of New Zealand was mentioned, which isnt' at all relevant. JPD (talk) 18:18, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


JPD, the term British Dominions (beyond the Seas) was in explicit legal Constitutional Usage from 1901-1953. Here is not a piece of "toilet paper", but an excerpt from the Royal Styles and Titles Act 1901 (with its companion Royal Proclamation),

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/britstyles.htm#1901

"We have thought fit, by and with the advice of Our Privy Council, to appoint and declare, and We do hereby, by and with the said advice, appoint and declare that henceforth, so far as conveniently may be, on all occasions and on all instruments wherein Our Style and Titles are used, the following addition shall be made to the Style and Titles at present appertaining to the Imperial Crown of the United Kingdom and its Dependencies; that, is to say, in the Latin tongue, After the word "Britanniarum," these words, "et terrarum transmarinarum quae in ditione stint Britannicâ;" and in the English tongue, after the words---of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland," these words, "and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas."


and was in legal force until the Royal Styles and Titles Act 1953 (with its companion Royal Proclamation),

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/britstyles.htm#1953

Upon use of the English Language one should be able to discern its validity, even for those inhabitants of that wee-island of Aotearoa , more commonly known as the Dominion of New Zealand (and its Dependencies).

ArmchairVexillologistDon 00:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

AVD, you just proved my point: if the term "Dominion" appears in the 1901 Act of Parliament that defined the title of the Sovereign of the state(s) in question, but that term was not carried over in the new (1953) Act, the previous term has been impliedly repealed. So again, I ask what exactly do you want changed about this article? Other editors have proposed changes (without, I should add, making childish remarks about their respective countries; and New Zealand is made up of many islands mate) to the article. --Lholden 01:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

LHolden, I repeat you are not the sole judge of Implied Repeal . It is best if you and I do not converse. We frequently de-volve into fruitless "exchanges".

ArmchairVexillologistDon 04:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Lholden, AVD has agreed that a statement about the evolution of usage addresses his concern. Your issue about implied repeal is irrelevant to that. Can you and AVD please take it offline? --Chris Bennett 05:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Sure thing --Lholden 08:46, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Chris Bennett, I consider the matter of Implied Repeal closed. I have no interest in pursuing a discussion with LHolden any further.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 06:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Please hold off on adding the text, as I'm currently working on a version that includes some of the above, but is condensed to remove repetition and unrelated information. Thanks. --G2bambino 16:22, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, as I alluded to earlier, I don't think it's necessary to go into so much detail that has nothing to do, really, with the subject of this article. Thus, I suggest the following:
A Commonwealth Realm is any one of the 16 self-governing countries within the Commonwealth of Nations that separately recognize Elizabeth II as their monarch. These countries, other than the United Kingdom, were previously commonly referred to as Dominions, a practice that declined around the early 1950s. All the countries are now independent kingdoms, where the sovereign is specifically monarch of that state; a concept illustrated in the proclamation of Elizabeth II's new titles in 1953. Since then, for example, in Barbados she is known as "Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of Barbados," or, simply, the Queen of Barbados. Hence the Commonwealth Realms are in personal union with one another, much as, for instance, the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England were before their unification in the United Kingdom of Great Britain.
While the term "Dominion," as a title, can still be used to refer to any of the Commonwealth Realms other than the United Kingdom, it is increasingly being replaced by the term "Realm". Both terms are unambiguous when used in a Commonwealth context, but on the rare occasions it is necessary to refer to these realms collectively in a different context, where they may be distinguished from other realms as Commonwealth Realms.
I think this is all that is necessary for the opening paragraph, as the other info about how the word "Realm" came to replace "Dominion" is already well documented in the Historical development section. --G2bambino 17:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't have a problem with this, go for it. I think we don't need to continue this discussion, as I said before I hope we can now evolve the text in the ordinary fashion. I would make one small change: Replace the phrase "a practice that declined around the early 1950s" by something like "but use of this term has declined in recent decades". --Chris Bennett 21:49, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
****  side thread left in for historical completeness ****
I was going to suggest that AVD take his points to either Dominion or Realm, but it seems you've beat me to it. Your proposal seems viable, however I have some minor suggestions. Should this discussion be continued at Talk:Dominion? --G2bambino 21:29, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Like I said, it's a suggestion, I'm not hung up on precise wording. I don't care where it's discussed. The protagonist here is AVD, so the important question is whether he accepts that the real issue is about usage, and if so whether he thinks that it could be addressed this way. If not then there's no point in pursuing it and I will go away to more productive endeavours. --Chris Bennett 22:04, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that will resolve the issue, not because AVD might be making a valid point, but because he is using this page to settle the issue of the meaning of the term "Commonwealth Realm". For that reason I see no point to this conversation unless AVD actually proposes changes to this article and can justify those changes. So far there have been amendments put forward by multiple users queries on arguments made by AVD as to how the article could be changed, all of which have been rejected by AVD. I suspect the issue taken by AVD regarding the name of this article and its contents can never be resolved. --Lholden 22:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Queen Picture

The large picture of the queen at the top of the article I belive is not a fair impression of her, due to the unfortunate exression she was wearing when it was taking. To make it fairer I ask someone replace it with a better looking picture? Tom walker 19:50, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

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