Talk:Common Raven

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The current WikiProject Birds collaboration article is Common Raven. Last month's winner was: N/A. Feel free to cast your vote for next month's article

In the movie Ace Ventura: When Nature Calls, Jim Carrey's character names the common raven as the smartest of all birds. Is there any truth to that? --ThatNateGuy 23:55, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes. I can't remember any sources to cite, but a few assorted facts: At a zoo show I went to a long while back, the zookeepers stated that some parrots are close to being the smartest birds, having intelligences about on par with a 2- or 3-year old human, but ravens are even a bit smarter. Don't know any definitive sources, though, so I'd leave it out until we can consult a bird book or something. --141.149.252.16 00:59, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

The african Grey parrot is listed among the Sentient animals (although I would argue that all animals are to some degree sentient). So at least on parrot species is supposed to be intelligent. The Raven is also supposed to be preternaturally intelligent, probably the root cause of its reputation. The fact that Crows studied showed tool use is surprising; primates learn tool use from one another, whereas the crows studied likely just "thought it up".

I have a small problem with the article though; much as I like Ravens, I'm sorry to say they are extinct in Ireland. The last Raven "community" was reportedly destroyed in Mayo by a certain farmer whose name we will not curse. Or so I hear. I have certainly never heard of them here, and they were a protected species before their destruction so it should be documented somewhere. By the way, I'm ranting about this because they are shown on the map as being endemic to Éire. They are, but they are sadly gone. Hopefully they'll be re-introduced... - Cathal

I do not believe the comment above to be true: The 1999 population of Ravens in Ireland was estimated at 3,500 pairs and growing. There may be some areas where it is struggling, but it's certainly not extinct. jimfbleak 07:02, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

The correct term would be "extirpated", meaning no longer in that place, though not extinct. An extinct animal no longer exists anywhere. And yes, there seems to be a general agreement among ornithologists that ravens are the most intelligent of birds, with crows and African Grey parrots coming in close behind. EthanL 10:36, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Bernd Heinrich, in Mind of the Raven, reports that C. corax has an encephalization index of "19, the highest member of the corvid group and therefore the highest of any bird." on page 326 of the paperback edition.

Contents 1 Are ravens scavengers? 2 19th Century? 3 Flocks 4 capitalisation of the word 'raven' 5 Flying Upside Down 6 Some thoughts on the collaboration 6.1 streamlining sections/subsections 6.2 Cleaning up Ravens in Popular Culture 6.3 Caps 6.4 Weights 6.5 Images 6.6 Recruitment

[edit] Are ravens scavengers?

I thought that ravens were scavengers that mainly feed on what is already dead. Is this true?

see the article - they'll eat almost anything, and carrion is a significant part of the diet. jimfbleak 07:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 19th Century?

I thought one of the Stuart kings passed a law related to the legend, which is why the government maintains the birds to this day. Ring any bells with anyone else?

[edit] Flocks

I seem to remember each member of the family of Corvidae having an interesting name, murder of crows, parliement of rooks, etc. I forget what a flock of ravens is called and the article seems to be missing it. Highlandlord 03:03, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

An Unkindness of Ravens, so I hear. http://birding.about.com/library/weekly/aa032700a.htm Can't speak to its accuracy. 68.225.240.87 23:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

There is actually quite a few alternatives; conspiracy, murder or unkindness. You can find more at List of collective nouns for birds and more generally at English collective nouns. -- Solipsist 16:17, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] capitalisation of the word 'raven'

Why is the word 'raven' capitalised in the name of this article and throughout the body? I would bet anything on that being wrong, and in fact i checked Dictionary.com it appears to confirm that it is. It's been capitalised in the article since at least late 2004, though, so i'm worried that maybe there's some crazy consensus that's been reached that i'm not aware of. Is that the case, or has everybody been just totally ignoring the error for the last 2 years? ~ lav-chan @ 07:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Its a project style thing. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Tree of Life and its archived talk pages where there have been many arguments about whether common names of animals and plants should be capitalised. The use of capitalisation is most secure for birds, as described at Wikipedia:WikiProject Birds, due to it being the convention used by the American Ornithologists' Union (I think). -- Solipsist 08:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

• I see.... I guess i never really noticed the debate before. That's bizarre, i don't understand the rationality behind capitalising it, especially when it can cause so much confusion (e.g., your WikiProject Birds page mentions a difference between a Starling and a starling, and the article in question here seems to suggest that a Raven is somehow distinct from a raven). But i guess i don't have any room to talk, i'm obviously not above creative capitalisation. :shrug: Thanks for the explanation anyway. ~ lav-chan @ 10:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flying Upside Down

I don't have citation handy, but Ravens are the only birds which fly upside down (inverted) purely for pleasure. are any of the following acceptable citations: http://www.nps.gov/archive/brca/raven.html (just above the heading "Conservation") http://www.carleton.ca/orientation/fall/FYEO.html (second line) feel free for somebody to add it Nessieliberation 23:54, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

This strikes me as misleading - Common Ravens are aerobatic, but neither they nor any bird (including hummers) can maintain upside-down flight. What this probably refers to is the ability of several species to roll in flight, either to defend themselves (as the source says) or in display (some birds of prey, like the harriers, also roll as part of an aerial food pass). The Chough is probably the most agile of the temperate corvids, but even that species cannot fly upside down. I've never seen or read (in a reliable source) of any bird flying upside down in the implied sense. jimfbleak 06:50, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some thoughts on the collaboration

A few improvements needed with a quick look over.

• Diet can be massively expanded.
• Breeding is unwikified. Include Life history info there also (how long they live etc)
• We need to gut the laundry lists of cultural references and organise what we keep better. We don't need to keep every reference in culture. Better to have a few well explained refs from different cultures. Anything not specific to the Common Raven can go without question.
• Other species can go.
• Refs, particularly for intelligence.

Sabine's Sunbird talk 23:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with all of your comments. Also, I added a subheading on vocalizations. Hey jude, don't let me down 22:01, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Me too, all points above are good. cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 23:06, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] streamlining sections/subsections

Umm...discussing headings. Characteristics is a non-descriptive heading which means (in this case) what makes a raven a raven really, some other articles have used it in the Description heading, which is now called identification. Hence the use of behaviour there. Does anyone have strong feelings on this? I prefer Description to Identification as that is what is on Kakapo and some other bird and dino FAs I have worked on..

I'll add that I am all for variation in sections and subsections in cases of critters which have emphasis in certain areas (e.g. migration in Arctic Terns, conservation in Kakapo, taxonomic issues etc. I am just thinking about streamlining/standardising as much as possible. cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 23:06, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Haha... I am not particularly favor or against anything. Well if you perfer Description to Identification, go ahead and change it. Cheers. Luffy487 04:35, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, it isn't that I particularly prefer it, though it is more broad and hence more able to be used in a wider range of articles (eg dinosaurs), but I think uniformity is good for a professional look to the whole shebang and it seems alot easier to cahnge this one than all the others....cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 05:01, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I prefer Description, just because it's a more general term and doesn't have the 'go out and find some ravens' connotation, so I did something bold and changed it. Change it back if you feel it's needed. Australian Raven 23:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleaning up Ravens in Popular Culture

How much of that info should we leave there? I think some of it is actually widely known, but half of it doesn't matter. Comments? Australian Raven 12:45, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Tricky - most important ones (I guess) would be nth american trickster, norse hugin & munin, shakespeare ref of use of bird, EA Poe and tower of london. Then all the rest on a ravens in pop cult page.

PS: Lets move this to raven talk page :) cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 12:49, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

PPS: The bible stuff I forgot - thoughts? cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 12:49, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Should I move some of the trivia on ravens in general to the Raven page, since it does apply to them? Hey jude, don't let me down 00:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I think, looking at the contexts, that virtually all the trivia refers to this species - i moved a lot of it from the raven page!. jimfbleak 05:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

We could create an article Ravens in culture or we could just throw it all out and hope no-one notices...Sabine's Sunbird talk 06:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Awwww, make a page...I hate chucking things out....Ravens in popular culture...we've done it with several dino FAs, Tyrannosaurus comes to mind cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 06:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

There. Moved. Now the trick is to write a 2-3 para concise summary to put on Common raven page.....cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 06:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe use the one I wrote for albatross as a template. Sabine's Sunbird talk 07:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I've moved a couple of refs to popcult. Ajimfbleak 07:06, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Should any of the more notable (and referenced) popular culture items be flagged up on the Common Raven page? That section is very bare without, but obviously we don't want it to become a recreation of the moved list?jimfbleak 12:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've done 2 paras as a rough guide. I thought of a third dealing with just the british isles (eg. Bran + Isle of Man + Tower of London), but thought this may be a bit anglocentric. Have a go at tweaking it. I structured it as 1 ancient and 1 modern para. cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 12:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Caps

Beware! If referring to the species, use Common Raven, if not, then use raven. Cheers! Sabine's Sunbird talk 04:48, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Weights

I can find references to CRs weighing c.1.25 kg. However, I remember, years ago, having some email correspondence with a raven researcher in Alaska who indicated that he had weights greater than this - well over 2 kg I think, maybe 3 kg - making the species (or maybe that particular subspecies or population) the heaviest passerine. If someone comes across a ref to this, it would add an interesting tidbit to the article. Maias 05:46, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh... different subspecies have different size and weight. It have reference to their size but not their weight. Luffy487 14:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images

The other thing I was thinking of was how we illustrate the article. Ideally every pic should add something not covered in another. Not just another, 'this is a raven' pic (though we do have some nice ones so a different one can be used on Raven and in pop cult. page. cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 23:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

It would be good to get one of a raven in flight, one foraging or feeding, and some pictures of chicks or a nest. Sabine's Sunbird talk 00:07, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

yeah I was thinking that. nthing much on commons...maybe check flickr...cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 03:36, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I looked at the USFWS but not much joy. If we don't have any other luck we can ask people to use theirs; once the article is looking good (GA-FA quality) is the best time to ask people with good pictures to donate.Sabine's Sunbird talk 03:41, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, we'll hold off that for a tic. The other thing is that do we feel of the pix on commons that we have the best photo available for the taxobox? I suspect so but not by much. A couple of the others I really like too.

Canadian Rockies

is nice but the beak is a bit out of focus...cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 03:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I took that pic and I hate the way the beak is blurred. Unfortunately the raven was "cawing" at the time so his head and beak were in motion when I snapped it. I've tried sharpening it with Photoshop but didn't accomplish much - but then I'm not all that good with the software. If anyone would like to take a crack at it, let me know and I'll be happy to send you the original, unedited image. By the way, I've been watching you guys work this page over, and it's an interesting process. One question: Is the range map in the taxobox failing to display for anyone else? If so, is that intentional? I think range maps are critical for bird articles, and the fact that it isn't displaying really bugs me. 'Card 12:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, me too. I can't figure out what the difference is in the text between this and American Crow where I could see the box.cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 12:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recruitment

I don't know if anyone else has read Ravens in Winter by Bernd Heinrich, but it really stresses the raven's unique recruitment behavior, in which dominant juvenile ravens recruit others to food bonanzas to help them overpower the resident territorial adults. I was about to add a paragraph about this when I realized it doesn't really fit under Characteristics, Distribution and Habitat, or Identification. Where should it go? Australian Raven 23:18, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Its either a social behaviour or a feeding behaviour. It would probably be worth creating a section for social behaviour, they also roost in groups and have “Aerial assemblies”. Sabine's Sunbird talk 23:28, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll run around and create a new section, then. What are these "Aerial Assembly" things? Australian Raven 23:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

PS. I created the section, but I wasn't sure how to word it. Feel free to take a pair of scissors and fix it. Also, why don't you add whatever these 'aerial assembly' things are? Australian Raven 23:49, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll give it a go in a bit, I'm just reading about it now. Sabine's Sunbird talk 23:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I moved it around a bit and will do some more playing with it soon. Sabine's Sunbird talk 00:16, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I just got this Goodwin Crows of the World from the library. Man, the detail! Now trying to figure out how much to incorporatecheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 06:01, 31 March 2007 (UTC)