Talk:Coloured
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[edit] Gandhi?
Is a mention of Mohandas K. Gandhi appropriate in this article? For most outside South Africa, he would seem to be the most noted Coloured personality. While he played only a small role in terms of time (1893 to (arguably) 1915), his influence on both the APO and the residual effects of his movement on the ANC might be worth note. I do not have the depth of knowledge on Gandhi nor a reasonable perspective on his overall role in SA history to edit this article; I was wondering if the author would think it appropriate to add a mention/link in either the first or second paragraph of Apartheid and Beyond.
- Surely this article refers to Coloured in its specific Southern African context - i.e., meaning of mixed race? Coloured is not usually used in Southern Africa as a synonym for "Indian". Humansdorpie 15:35, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
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- I would agree that in South Africa, Indian (i.e. South Asian) was not a subset of Coloured, while Malay (i.e. South East Asian) was. This applied both geographically (Indians in Natal and Coloureds in the Cape), linguistically and politically. I will change "some Malay or Indian ancestry" to some Malay or Indonesian ancestry". --Henrygb 14:23, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
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- Me too. Ghandi was Indian. That doesn't make him coloured. Rbrady 13:06, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Coloured as an ethnic group
- Coloured" is an apartheid era construction. "Template:ethnic group" should not be applied here. Big Adamsky, though meaning well, is mistaken. How, since "Coloureds" is an ill (in the true sense) defined group, can you define its population, language or religion?--Ezeu 23:01, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, you are the one who is "mistaken, though meaning well", if you think that the Coloured population did not exist prior to, during or indeed after Apartheid. In fact, the official Apartheid legal category also called "Coloured" included those who self-identify (and were identified by others) as "Coloured South Africans" or "Brown South Africans", although it also included various other ethnic groups for convenience. For comparison, the legal category "White South Africans" included a sub-category called "Honorary Whites", which were mostly of East Asian origin. Ezeu, you will need to distinguish between the legal category that was enshrined into the legal framework of South Africa and South West Africa from 1961 to 1994 and on the other hand the group of people that this category was named after. Unless you can come up with a good source as to why this ethnic group is to be considered non-existant, the ethnic group box goes back into the article very shortly (again). //Big Adamsky 23:14, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
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- Alright, I will re-insert the ethnobox. You may be right. I'll do some reading and return with my findings. --Ezeu 23:36, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
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- Wonderful - let me know if you need any tips for reading/browsing. =] //Big Adamsky 23:52, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
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- Could more be said about why most Coloured people reject the term 'mixed race'? I think it's quite important to show that Coloured people themselves identitify with the label Coloured (and consider 'mixed race' to be derogatory in that it implies no specific ethnicity), since I've discovered while living in the UK that most people here think that Coloured is more derogatory. Joziboy 4 March 2006, 15:29 (UTC)
[edit] Rather heterogenous
I find the term "rather heterogenous" as used in the first paragraph to be ill-defined and of such a nature that it could be contrued as derogatory. I'm not changing it as it may be your solution to other difficulties described below. Just bringing it up for consideration. Rbrady 13:06, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
- I'm confused here. In what way is this wording ill-defined? Do you feel that this heterogenous-ness is not defined well enough in the sentences that follow? And in what way do you find it to be derogatory? Will it sound better without the "rather"? How should "heterogenous" be paraphrased to convey the meaning of "having [rather?] diverse origins" equally descriptively?. Please contribute by providing a suggestion for a better way to explain and define "Coloured" in an underogatory manner. //Big Adamsky 14:49, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] a coloured view
this is my personal opinion,as an actual coloured person.a coloured identity has existed in pre-apartheid times.early coloureds did benefit from marginally better treatment than the 'native black'population and have developed a superiority complex over their black counterparts.this is something they are paying for as the state is now sidelining them under the guise of 'black economic empowerment.
[edit] another coloured view
Many thanks to those who contributed to this Wikipedia article. My father's family probably qualify under this racial designation. They uprooted themselves from South Africa in the late 1950's, and re-settled in the UK. Shortly after that, my father left for Canada where he married. My surname is most definitely Afrikaans, but memories of my father's family suggest that they were enthusiastic adopters of British cultural norms. Afrikaans was rarely if ever used among them, even though they were no doubt fairly fluent in it. Surprisingly, my father became credentialed as a physician at Wits. He played cricket and tennis, suggesting some level of acceptance within a British social circle (in Kimberley and Johannesburg). Details of these events -- reasons for the family uprooting, their social status in South Africa -- were never discussed, and my surviving relatives prefer to either forget or embellish these uncomfortable memories. I'd be interested in any perspectives others could lend to this history, as I find it interesting. One source describes the Coloured Proclamation Act of 1959, which lead to land expropriation. I'm wondering if my father's family, having owned a house in Kimberley, acted pre-emtively in leaving by selling their house. Historical records suggest that family members owned a construction-related business in 1930's Kimberley. Also, how could a coloured gain acceptance to a South African medical school?
[edit] Other Labels?
I don't like this part of one of your sentences: "This is not to say that they identify themselves as such – perhaps preferring to call themselves "black" or "Khoisan" or just "South African." I think "perhaps" is very subjective. What evidence do you have that Coloured people prefer to call themselves these things? In my experience in South Africa, Coloured people took offence to being called "black," and this seems to be backed up by our Coloured contributor, who claims that Coloureds have developed a superiority complex over Xhosas and other native Africans. I haven't changed it, because I have no evidence to the contrary, but suggest this paraphrase should be removed until evidence can be provided. Andy81.129.177.120 16:21, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
RESPONSE: In response to Andy's disquiet above over my suggestion that people who are usually socially identified as "coloured" sometimes prefer to refer to themselves as "black" or "Khoisan" or "South African": First, there is a long history of rejection to the term "coloured" within the community. During the 1970s and 1980s, politically active coloureds embraced the philosophy of the Black Consciousness Movement which said that the coloured racial designation was an apartheid-manufactured category and that coloureds should see themselves as part of a larger "black" oppressed political category. Many middle class and politically active coloureds began to to see themselves as part of this larger black group because the solidarity it instilled between African, Indians and coloureds enhanced their oppositional activities against the racist state. By remaining locked into their different racial groups, they felt weakened and divided. Thus, the investment that many coloureds made into that black solidarity movement remains powerful to this day. Many continue to eschew the coloured label with some embarrassment, feeling that it is too confining for their sensibilities.
In fact, the idea that coloureds are also "blacks" is enshrined in the Constitution which defines "black" to mean anyone of African, Indian, or coloured descent. Black Economic Empowerment laws and affirmative action policies include coloureds under the "black" designation (though it is true that they are ranked as "less previously disadvtaged" than Africans. In social conversation, "black" does not always automatically mean "African," though it often does. It can also include coloureds and Indians, depending on the context.
I agree that many coloureds, especially working-class folks who compete directly with working-class Africans for limited jobs, have a low opinion of Africans, including Xhosas. But this is just one coloured perspective; there are others who do not hold such superior feelings, especially outside the western Cape. Many just want to do away with race altogether, seeing it as an oppressive organizer of human society, preferring the racially neutral term "South African." And others, who feel that there might be some social and political power to be gained by identifying themselves as indigenous prefer to call themselves "Khoisan." This designation may be historically warranted especially in the northern parts of the country where Khoi societies have adapted and survived colonialism and apartheid. So it is worth adding the "perhaps" qualifier to the sentence in the article because it shows that there are always exceptions to the general description of any racial or ethnic group.
For more literature on the subject, which discusses not only the state "categorization" of mixed-race people as coloureds, but also "self-identification" (as blacks, Khoisan & South African) by such people, see Mohamed Adhikari's excellent book "Not White Enough, Not Black Enough: Racial Identity in the South African Coloured Community" (Athens, Ohio: Ohio University Press, 2005). The other evidence I have for this perception is gained from everyday experience living in Cape Town (some years in the townships), being married into a coloured family, and being an academic who studies South African history and culture for a living.Henry M. Trotter 11:50, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Most coloured people do identify as coloured
I really think that the fact that the vast majority of coloured people in the Western Cape (who constitute by far the largest community of coloured people in South Africa) self-identify as coloured and take a great deal of pride in the term needs to be far more heavily emphasised in this article. I also don't believe that this is restricted to the working class or to the Cape Flats in any way. The fact that 'the term coloured is still widely used in South Africa' is buried two thirds of the way down the article, and located completely inappropriately in a section on history.
I think that the sensitivity of the term is important to establish, but opening the article with a spiel on how 'they' (not even some of them) prefer to identify as 'Khoisan' or 'black', which is a massive inflation of the truth, is misleading. Furthermore, I think those coloureds who classify themselves as South African to the exclusion of their membership in a coloured culture and community are in the extreme minority, if only because identifying primarily as a member of a unique and separate coloured culture has become far less politically charged than identifying as a member of a unique and separate black or white culture, which is perceived in the popular consciousness as far more divisive and exclusionary.
I think a lot of coloured people would object to this article's portrayal of their culture and the word they use to refer to it as something perpetuated by (and now a relic of) the Apartheid system. I hate to shrink from 'be bold', but I believe the article's more seasoned contributors would do that adjustment more justice than I. 41.241.110.53 20:48, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Different creation?
Unlike other multi- racial groups, in other parts of the world, they seem to be as much an ethnic group as whites or blacks. Perhaps this should be stressed more in the article? Considering that they're often viewed as the offspring of a white and black relationship.
Just how long have they been a well- defined ethnic group?
86.31.158.242 21:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
