Talk:Collectivisation in the USSR/archive1

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I started adding to Sovkhoz and writing kolkhoz, but soon realized that the articles share much. Also, comparison of these forms is required. I suggest to make a single article, Collective farming in the USSR. Also, to avoid confusion, I suggest eiher to rename Collectivisation in the USSR into History of collectivisation in the USSR or to make it into a section of the new article. Any opinions? Please put them into the Talk:Sovkhoz page. Mikkalai 04:38, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

Collectivisation impact

From Talk:Kulak

The collectivization campaign turned Russia from major agricutlural exporter into a country unable to feed itself.

I don't think this isn't true per se, but I do think it could be worded in a much more NPOV 130.157.90.64

Thank you for poining out at this phrase. In fact, it is false. Collectivization per se didn't destroy the productivity of Russian agriculture. (By the way, even in 1913 Russian agriculture was retarded with respect to the rest of the world.) The long chain of disasters: WWI, Russian Revolution, Russian Civil War, aggravated by two droughts (of 1920s and 1930s), did that. If someone wants to discuss the issue further, let's do it at the Talk:Collectivisation in the USSR page. I am copying this dialog there. Mikkalai 01:20, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It is hard to show that collectivization reduced productivity as the control situation of an alternative to collectivization, in Russia, cannot be compared to it. But one might note that problems with food production in China ceased when collectivization was abandoned. Fred Bauder 03:53, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

Problems with food production in China became quite serious when collectivisation was abandoned. Even Dazhai, China's most successful commune, did not raise enough grain to feed itself in 1987, four years after it was forcibly disbanded by the government. See William H. Hinton, The Great Reversal: The privatization of China, 1978–1989 (New York: Monthly Review Press, 1990), ISBN 0-85345-794-8. Shorne 22:50, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Shock brigades

In an attempt to overcome this resistance, shock brigades were used to coerce reluctant peasants into joining the collective farms between 1929 and 1933.

To assist collectivisation, the Party decided to sent 25,000 "socially conscious" industry workers to the countryside. These workers have become known as twenty-five-thousanders ("dvadtsatipyatitysyachniki").

It happens that the "dvadtsatipyatitysyachniki" movement occurred exactly during the same time frame: 1929-1933. I strongly suspect that the author of the "shock brigades" phrase merely provided his own interpretation of the fact. Unless someone sheds an additional light (i.e., evidence) on the usage of the "shock brigade" buzzword from the U.S. military slang, the sentence is out. Mikkalai 20:28, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree that "shock brigade" is POV. Shorne 21:27, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

To Boraczek

Look, I know that this is hard for you to understand, but you have to have facts to be able to change something that is correctly documented and NPOV. You can't just revert it because it doesn't match your astigmatic view of the world. Shorne 09:12, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

NPOV

In my opinion, Shorne merely introduces statements taken from communist propaganda without any criticism or distance. If he goes on presenting these statements as facts rather than as opinions, I will consider it an intentional breaking of the NPOV policy, which clearly states that Wikipedia's policy is presenting conflicting views without asserting them. Shorne is welcome to present his opinion on kulaks' activity during the collectivisation as an opinion. Besides, I can see no reason why high estimates should be deleted, as they only provide additional information. Boraczek 09:59, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Reread what I said. You have to contest facts with facts, not with opinions. Shorne 10:01, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia's definition (by "fact," we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute" - taken from Wikipedia:Neutral point of view), you haven't presented any facts. You only presented an opinion, that is to say "a piece of information about which there is some dispute" (taken from Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). That's why I feel free to undo your reversion, as it is against the NPOv policy. I'm sorry. Boraczek 10:55, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm sorry to tell you that there is absolutely no way to discuss anything with you. It seems that you do not understand anything. Please seek assistance. Shorne 11:52, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Will someone else kindly accept the herculean task of explaining this to Boraczek? I just don't have the patience. Shorne 12:01, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Shorne, let me encourage you to read the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view article. Here is an excerpt which explains what you can do so as not to violate NPOV: Wikipedia is devoted to stating facts and only facts. Where we might want to state opinions, we convert that opinion into a fact by attributing the opinion to someone. So, rather than asserting, "The Beatles was the greatest band", we can say, "Most Americans believe that the Beatles was the greatest band," which is a fact verifiable by survey results, or "The Beatles had many songs that made the Billboard Hot 100," which is also fact. In the first instance we assert an opinion; in the second and third instances we "convert" that opinion into fact by attributing it to someone. Boraczek 12:11, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Shorne, if you won't discuss your edit war with Boraczek, how about discussing it with me. In the village my family lived in, resistance was nearly universal, but only actual kulaks were shot. Fred Bauder 19:31, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

What do you want me to discuss? Shorne 19:56, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I still question the neutrality of this article, as Shorne presents data taken from a site of a communist party as undeniable facts. To me, writing an article about collectivisation which is based solely on a book written by a communist seems like writing an article about the Holocaust which is based solely on Hitler's Mein Kampf. This is only one side of the story, and we have reasons to believe that the source is heavily biased. Boraczek 12:22, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Vandalism by Boraczek

Boraczek, pay attention, because this is the last time I'm going to say this: PROVE YOUR POINT WITH FACTS OR SHUT THE HELL UP. Shorne 20:12, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Why are U so nervous? I thought you liked to play Reverti. You do it all the time.

Seriously - this is not my task to prove any vision of history. My task is to protect NPOV in this article. As your changes are based on one tendentious source and exclude any other POV, I need to intervene. I'm sorry. Boraczek 20:19, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You need to enrol in the nearest kindergarten. That's what you need. Shorne 15:14, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion. BTW I wonder why this section is named "vandalism". Do U have any evidence of my vandalism, or is this name just one of your "facts"? Boraczek 16:24, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Note about death toll

By the way, please note that I bent over backwards to give an anti-Stalinist perspective to this article, within the realm of fact. I even used the highest possible estimate of deaths and the longest period (all the way to 1940), to get a maximum death toll of 750,000. If there's a POV to correct, it's an anti-Stalinist one. Shorne 20:20, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

As this is supposed to be the most generous estimate of the death toll for the entire period from 1930 to 1940, the sentence is still false. And BTW, this is Wikipedia, we don't need to give a single estimate here, we can list as many estimates as we want. So please don't delete other estimates. Boraczek 20:31, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You don't get to cite estimates that conflict with the facts that I've already cited. In any case, I did mention Conquest's bullshit propaganda. Shorne 20:32, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Remember that there is a lot of uncertainty about many of these events. With the best possible will people have come up with different numbers. Things went differently in different parts of the country and with different ethnic groups. In some places, for example in the Northern Caucasus, under the leadership of Metal Kalmykov, where persuasion rather than force was used, many of the troubles associated with collectivization were avoided. Kalmykov was shot in 1938. Page 189, The Kremlin's Human Dilemma: Russia After Half a Century of Revolution, Maurice Hindus, Doubleday, (1967). So in your generalizations, almost all need to be qualified. For example, many of the cattle were killed because the food that would have been used to feed them over the winter had been confiscated along with the food that was necessary to feed the family, so of course people butchered their cattle and ate them. To characterize people as evil kulaks in those circumstances is simply unfair. Fred Bauder 21:46, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

Even the Encyclopædia Britannica admits that the kulaks killed the cattle as an act of destruction, not for food (although the meat was, of course, eaten). Besides, it is not I who am characterising anyone as an evil kulak; I'm just using the word as it was used. See kulak for a discussion.

Those numbers in the many millions are an absurdity and have been refuted as such. Throughout the Cold War, Conquest proclaimed far and wide that the Soviet archives would corroborate his claims. Easy to say when the archives are closed. Well, one fine morning the archives were opened. And what happened? Conquest's claims were proven to be wrong. His claim of deaths from collectivisation in particular was so grossly exaggerated that his number of people who died in gulags was double the number who were ever sent to gulags! He's no historian, just a propagandist who culls through third-rate sources for anything that will help him weave a tale of "great terror". Shorne 22:45, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Shorne, I note you are removing:

According to "The Collectivization 'Genocide'", in Another View of Stalin, by Ludo Martens on a Progressive Labor Party website the most generous estimate of the death toll for the entire period from 1930 to 1940 is about 750,000. [1]

and replacing it with a blind link.

Please note that I am not removing the link, although I have little or no use for the PLP or Stalin apologetics. I am just crediting and identifying the source. That way the reader can "consider the source". I don't think much of having either a link to an article about the party or even referring to the book, but under NPOV, although a distinctly minority viewpoint, they are a recognized one. What is your objection to including information about the source of the information? Fred Bauder 13:21, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

The link is clearly cited at the bottom of the page. Your addition interrupts the flow of the paragraph and also incorrectly suggests that the total of at most 750,000 comes from Martens. In fact, it comes from me. I added up the highest possible figures from the data cited earlier in the paragraph (see the references) and came up with a bit more than 740,000, which I changed to 750,000 just to be even more generous to the side that drools over high figures for deaths under Stalin.

The fact that the link given is to the Progressive Labor Party's Web site is hardly relevant. That's the only place I know where the English text of this book can be found. The book itself was originally written in French and published in Belgium and is available for purchase (ISBN 2872620818). I'll add a link at the bottom of the page for the benefit of those who read French.

Incidentally, where have you been when people have added the correct and non-obvious information that Conquest was employed as an anti-Soviet propagandist by the British government? People keep deleting this important information. Shorne 16:01, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Looking at that link I find this statement:

"The Soviet term, `liquidation of the kulaks as a class', indicates perfectly clearly that it is the capitalist exploitation organized by the kulaks that is to be eliminated and not the physical liquidation of the kulaks as persons. Playing with the word `liquidation', academic hacks such as Nolte and Conquest claim that the exiled kulaks were `exterminated'."

This is simply false: Kulaks who continued to display strong resistance were shot, the rest were imprisoned. This is a link to a list of those shot from the German villages near Odessa. [2]

Kulaks who carried their destruction and violence too far were indeed shot or imprisoned, as Martens says. Most, however, were either relocated or left right where they were, attached to collectives. Claiming that "liquidation of the kulaks as a class" refers to extermination of the persons themselves, as Conquest does out of ignorance or dishonesty, is simply wrong. "Liquidation" in that context no more means extermination (a word chosen for its emotive value) than "liquidation of a corporation" in a capitalist context means that the officers and accountants get strung up in the parking lot.

As for your list, the class of kulaks had largely been done away with by 1936, so I don't know what that list could be about. My best guess is Nazi activity. Shorne 16:01, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

No, all ex-kulaks were rounded up during the Great Purge, convicted of being, guess what? Ex-kulaks and either sentenced or killed. The Germans around Odessa didn't know from Nazi although latter during the German occupation there was some collaboration. Fred Bauder 18:12, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

Where do you get this stuff? Shorne 18:36, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It's family history, but what part do you doubt? Fred Bauder 21:10, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

Your "family history" covers "all ex-kulaks"? And you consider this "family history" a reliable reference? Shorne 22:22, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Mostly it consists of stories told by people who lived in those times in the villages my family lived in. It can be distorted by personal considerations that don't relate historically, but it is very clear that many people who were considered kulaks where shot in 1937, which by the way is well documented in the historical literature regarding the Great Purge. It is reliable enough, but there is a pitiable whining tone which rather detracts from the dignity of their suffering. After all they fought the regime tooth and nail from 1919 on and should have expected hostility. My great-grandfather by the way emigrated to the US in 1890 so we are talking about distant cousins. [3] Fred Bauder 22:59, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for putting it in an honest way. We're talking about people who were actively resisting the new régime twenty years after it was founded. As you said, they had to expect hostility. So-called communist states aren't the only ones that use force to maintain themselves; all states do. Had the British defeated the US revolutionaries, you can bet that Washington and plenty of his comrades would have received a twenty-one-gun salute—with a cigarette and a blindfold. Shorne 00:28, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Excuse me, what does the American War of Independence have to do with killing kulaks? Boraczek 11:24, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I believe my paragraph was clear enough. Shorne 12:37, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Collectivization percentages

The opening paragraph says: "However most observors agree that, in practice, despite isolated successes, collective and sovkhozs were inefficient, the agricultural sector being weak thoughout the history of the Soviet Union with one third of collective farm production being produced on the private plots peasants were allowed."

I don't agree collectives were inefficient. As far as the agricultural sector always being weak with one third of agriculture coming from private production - well for one thing it was not one third, it was less than that. I don't see what case there is that the agricultural sector was weak - more was produced in say 1988 than in 1916, what weakness is meant? Yes, some percentage of a farmers work was on their own private plots - what effect does that have on weakness?

It is a matter of contrast. The very same people were working for the Kolhotz that were working in the private plots, which they worked on only after their day's work was done. At the direction of the leaders of the kolhotz they plowed, planted, harvested in order to carry out the plans developed at the center. They did produce a lot of food, but compared to farms in the West, very little despite the large number of people engaged in agriculture. In the cultivation of their private plots, about an acre per family for most of the history of the Soviet Union they were diligent, skilled and productive. Fred Bauder 11:38, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

We know how the collectives operated. We also know that they were behind the West, for quite a few reasons, a major one being the climatic and geological conditions of the Soviet Union. (It isn't exactly Italy, you know.)

One problem with your citation is that you don't give a date. When did that much of production supposedly come from private sources? In 1990? I'd believe it. (Smuggling and unauthorised use of land would have played a big rôle by then.) In 1940? Hardly.

Another problem is that we're not talking about the same things. The kolkhozy and the sovkhozy produced mostly grain. (Also cotton and certain other crops that require large-scale production.) People didn't plant wheat on private plots; they planted vegetables and raised livestock. Well, livestock eat grain. A lot of it. And guess where the grain came from. So it's not as simple as saying that efficiency did the trick. Sure, that was part of it. But it wasn't the whole story. Shorne 11:55, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You say it is a matter of contrast. First you say it is a contrast with Western farms which is ridiculous because in 1916 Western farms were far more productive than farms in Russia. Russia started out economically far behind the industrialized countries, which of course, were not standing still either. From this perspective, the only way for Russia to not be perceived as weak is, whatever its material conditions, to reach the same level of US production which of course was ever-increasing. This is a nutty contrast, you might as well demand that if Haiti collectivized its farms, that it produce as much soon after as the US does, if it doesn't it's collective farms are obviously "weak". This is an article about collectivization, not material conditions. Farm productivity increased in Russia over the years. If Russian and American farms were similar in 1916 there would be a basis in comparison, as this is not so, there is no basis in comparison. It's interesting you choose to use the US to the what was pre-revolution pre-industrial Russia. Russia and Brazil make a more apt comparison for many reasons, and the Soviet collectives were certainly more productive than that country, which in 1916 had an economy similar to Russia's.

Furthermore, Russia is in Europe, and one could have made the same case comparing American and European farms. Compared to American farms in say the 1970s, European farms were incredibly inefficient. Does this have to do with collectivization? In fact, collective farms were more efficient than Italian farms in the 1970s (Earl Brubaker, January 1972 - A Sectoral Analysis of Efficiency Under Market and Plan. Soviet Studies).

The other contrast you give is that production on collectives was weak and inefficient compared to private production in Russia. Here again there is no basis of comparison. As Shorn says, grain was the main thing produced on the collectives. In your own examples listed below, what is coming off of the private plots? Over and over again it says - milk, meat and eggs. I think I'm beginning to see where the "miracle" of what your sources say 26% of production coming from 2-3% of "the land" is! Talking about misleading and disingenuous. Ruy Lopez 17:46, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You are making a lot of good points here. I think privately owned cattle were not grazed on private plots, but in common pastures with the rest of the collective farms cattle. There was also concentration on high value crops, although why they grew potatos mystifies me as here in the San Luis Valley it is a mechanized field crop. As to poor land, part of that was due to poor planning at the center which poured resources into farming of marginal land, both in the traditional Russian heartland in the north, but in arid lands to the southeast. But the chernozem or black lands of the Ukraine are equal in native productivity to the land in Iowa. The statistics I now quote in the revised sentence are from 1973, heart of the stagnation period. Fred Bauder 13:52, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

First of all, the common pastures that you mentioned—and the communally produced grain that was also used as feed—represent a significant amount of land. Anyone who has been around cattle knows that they need a lot of space. Add that in, and suddenly the "2–3%" of land that was private has to be raised substantially.

Second, the USSR was not like the San Luis Valley. You have to plant what will grow well. That means potatoes in some places, fruit in others.

Third, I'm no agronomist and I don't have appropriate data, so I can't pass judgement on the decision to invest in marginal land. (Are you in a position to do so, other than from an armchair?) I do know that much marginal land was made fertile. What investment did chernozem require, since it was already so rich and productive?

Fourth, selectively quoting from the "heart of the stagnation period" reflects a bias. You're trying to find the worst cases to report on. Shorne 21:28, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You don't have to agree that collectives were inefficient (although, let me note, if you had lived in a collective farm in the Soviet Union, you would certainly agree). You can have your own opinion. But the fact is that most observers think that collective farms in the SU were dramatically inefficient.

Wikipedia is not meant to be a storage of "information Ruy Lopez agrees with" only. It is a place to present different views and opinions (converted into facts by attributing them to someone). This is why I consider your deletion unjustified. Not mentioning that it would be more polite to discuss the matter before deleting instead of making an arbitrary deletion.

If you believe that the percentage was lower than 33%, please cite a source you base your opinion on.

It is natural and quite obvious that the production in 1988 was bigger than the production in 1916, because the technological progress in 1988 was much more advanced. To measure the "weakness" of the agricultural sector in the USSR, you would need to compare it with agricultural sections in other countries. Boraczek 11:06, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The sourcing is good, but I do not accept an authority just saying things are inefficient, and/or weak, you have to say why they are. The one fact I can discern here, that supposedly one third of production was private is wrong, the percentage is lower. Ruy Lopez 03:35, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

See below, where after research a more realistic figure in 1/4 of total soviet production. Keep in mind that the sentence in question is in the introductory paragraph. Detailed information about the problems of Soviet agriculture belong in an article, perhaps Agriculture in the Soviet Union, or in the kolkhoz or Sovkhoz articles or perhaps in Collective farming#Soviet Union. There is some information in Zaslavskyaya's book, especially on page 115 where she writes, "During the stagnation period heavy restrictions were placed on the freedom of all categories of employees, 'tying them down' with hundreds of often contradictory instructions. In fact, it was not just a matter of instructions. I mentioned above that 80 percent of agricultural workers considered that they were not working at full capacity and could work more efficiently. What is stopping them now? The great majority of workers point to the poor organization of production, shortages of essential materials, fuel, seed, animal feed, constant breakdowns of equipment, a lack of spare parts and the resultant lengthy delays for reasons beyond their control. To this they add a poor structure of wages, a conflict of interests between different sections of workers, and a system of incentives that encourages good interim results rather than a good final outcome. In their opinion, if these weaknesses were overcome, they could raise productivity by 30-50 percent." Fred Bauder 14:10, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Ruy Lopez. Collective farmers had small private plots and facilities for small-scale raising of farm animals (a few chickens, a pig or two). There's just no way that private production could have been a third of all communal agriculture. Not that much land was private.

You're right that a very small percentage of land was private (I can't remember the exact number now, I'd need to check it). Nonetheless, that small percentage accounted for one third of the total production. This also shows how inefficient collective farms in the SU were. It seems to me that you don't accept any information about reality that is not consistent with your general opinion (which is BTW a definition of "prejudice"), so you'll probably deny it, but these are just statistics. Boraczek 11:06, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You've seen the book, have you, Boraczek? Shorne 11:10, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What book do you mean? Boraczek 11:26, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The one that you upheld as giving accurate statistics. Shorne 11:55, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Actually, I didn't refer to any particular book. Those were just official statistics of the SU. They were published in 70s and 80s. And social scientists had access to them. Those statistics were cited in many books. Chances are you can find them in statistical yearbooks of the Soviet Union as well. I don't know if they are accurate, but anyway it's hard to assume that they were "anti-communist propaganda", isn't it? Boraczek 14:56, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The book I cite regarding the inefficiencies of Collective farming is The Second Socialist Revolution ISBN 025336860X by Tatyana Zaslavskaya, a Soviet Sociologist and agricultural specialist. It is not an especially objective book, being essentially a tract which advocates restructuring of the Soviet economy, perestroika. However, it does have extensive material from one Soviet point of view of the problems presented in the 1980s. A book devoted to agriculture would be better but as Zaslavskaya points out, for most of the history of the Soviet Union objective reporting regarding the problems of agriculture was discouraged. Fred Bauder 14:36, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out its bias. Allow me to note as well that things done in the 1980s were not on Stalin's watch. Shorne 20:40, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

And, as Ruy Lopez said, "weak" has to be defined. Shorne 04:43, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, good news ; I have looked and looked in the book I am using and can't find the reference to one third of the production being from private plots.

You mean you quoted it just yesterday and now you can't find it anywhere in the book? How could that be? Shorne 20:40, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

We'll have to to look around at some other references if we want that number. To be honest I don't like to work that way. I'd rather incorporate material in Wikipedia when I run across it rather than spend time searching. But here is the result of some searching on the internet:

"But even in Lithuania, one-third of agricultural production came from private plots of land and not from collective or state farms" (Agricultural productivity in Lithuania was higher than in most of the rest of the Soviet Union) [4]

" Critics of communism often point out that these small privately run plots, occupying only 2% of the land, produced 26% of the country's agriculture" [5]

"Although accounting for a small share of cultivated area, private plots produced a substantial share of the country's meat, milk, eggs, and vegetables." [6]

"As the workers revolution was defeated, the peasants were able to force the continuation of private production on the land in retaining private plots for their own use and for commercial exploitation." Just for fun... [7]

"The contribution of private plots to the nation's food supply far exceeded their size. With only 3 percent of total sown area in the 1980s, they produced over a quarter of gross agricultural output, including about 30 percent of meat and milk, 66 percent of potatoes, and 40 percent of fruits, vegetables, and eggs." [8]

Again, "Furthermore, much of this output comes from private plots, which in 1964 accounted for 3% of the area under cultivation but produced more than 40% of the milk and meat output, 60% of the potato crop, and 73% of the egg production." [9]

"The Soviet Union contains some of the most fertile agricultural land in the world. Prior to the communist revolution of 1917 Russia was the world's largest exporter of grain. Collectivization of agriculture during the 1920s and 1930s was quickly followed by dramatic declines in agricultural output. Between five and ten million Russians died of starvation during these years with twelve to thirteen million more saved by food donated from the Western capitalist countries. Today, the Soviet Union employs nearly 25 per cent of its labor force and invests in excess of 25 per cent of its capital in agriculture, both of which are far higher than any other industrialized country. Despite its tremendous agricultural potential, the Soviet Union is now the world's largest food importer. It now imports nearly one-third of its food, and this is despite having grudgingly permitted the establishment of private mini-farms one-half to one acre in size. These private plots comprise only three per cent of the total cropland yet produce 27 per cent of the nation's food. It is unlikely that the Soviet Union could exist without these plots.", Citing 1. See Sven Rydenfelt, A Pattern for Failure (New York: Harcourt, 1983), pp. 27-45; Hedrick Smith, The Russians (New York: Ballantine, 1994), pp. 264-84; and Marshall Goldman, USSR in Crisis (New York: Norton, 1983), pp. 63-87. [10]

Since I have a copy of Hedrick Smith's The Russians, looking at pages 264-284--I find nothing remotely relating to the assertions in the article, but find a chapter, "Rural Life Why They Won't Stay Down on the Farm" running from page 199 to 214. On page 201, "But one unusual article in March 1975, revealed that 27 percent of the total value of Soviet farm output--about $32.5 billion worth a year--comes from private plots that occupy less than one percent of the nation's agricultural lands (about 20 million acres). The article cited is "A Yemelyanov, "The Agrarian Policy of the Party and Structural Advances in Agriculture," Problems of Economics, March 1975, pp. 22-34. The crop figures are computed from those in The Economy of the U.S.S.R. in 1973 (Moscow, 1974), p. 253" Smith goes on to say, also on page 201, "At that rate, private plots are roughly 40 times as effient as land worked collectively. In hard, crop-by-crop terms the 1973 Soviet economic yearbook showed that in terms of value, 62% of the nation's potatos, 32% of other fruits and vegetables, more than 47% of the eggs and 34% of the meat and milk [came from private plots].

So anyway, from a variety of sources the amount of land devoted to private plots was from 1 to 3 percent of the agricultural land. The portion of production, measured in terms of value (not quantity) ranges from 26 to 40 percent. Fred Bauder 13:32, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

Key word: value. This is nothing but an accounting construct. What I want to know is the production in terms of kilogrammes. Shorne 20:40, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"NPOV"

All right, what's the NPOV issue? Say something specific, or I'll remove that tag. Shorne 12:38, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Shorne and Ruy Lopez, although you have not identified your exact political perspective it seems to be that basically that the policies and viewpoints which prevailed in the Soviet Union before the Khrushchev revelation and reforms were correct. This viewpoint is rejected by almost all scholars even the revisionist historians and by the vast majority of Marxist-Leninists. I don't maintain as some do, notably User:Adam Carr that your viewpoint should be totally suppressed but I do think it needs to be put in perspective as the distinctly minority view it is. When you try to dominate an article like this you are violating Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and it is proper that a notice to that effect head the article. But more important than a mere notice is the failure, as there must be, to back up your structuring of information in the article with appropriate references. There is some material developed by the revisionist historians which you could use (take a lot of digging though), but in the main you are falling back on material from your own political sect and just plain arguing. I hope you can eventually see that what you are doing in not acceptable and amounts to a violation of Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, " Propaganda or advocacy of any kind. But of course an article can report objectively on what advocates say, as long as an attempt is made to approach a neutral point of view. Go to Usenet or start a blog if you want to convince people of the merits of your favorite views—and good luck." Fred Bauder 14:26, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

Fred, please point out the NPOV issue in the article. I mean specific words and sentences. Saying that I have a POV is not enough. Shorne 20:43, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'll point out which specific words and sentences violate the NPOV rule - a bit later. Boraczek 14:46, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Far from defending his claim of POV on my part, Fred Bauder just goes ahead and inserts his own "data" into the article. Everyone can assess for himself Fred Bauder's level of integrity. Shorne 01:39, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm listing sentences which are not NPOV IMO, and I'm waiting for your reaction.

Many wealthy and middle peasants, notably the kulaks, attempted to sabotage collectivisation

opinion as a fact; please prove that poor peasants didn't fight against collectivisation

I didn't say that none did. Shorne 21:34, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

When you say "many wealthy and middle peasants attempted", you imply that poor peasants didn't attempt. Boraczek 23:35, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If you have any real information on the subject, include it and cite it. Shorne 23:47, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

the exact figures were released by Soviet and foreign scholars

opinion as a fact; please prove that the figures are exact

They came straight from the archives. Check the references if you have any dispute. Shorne 21:34, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

OK, but what proves that the data from the archives are exact? Boraczek 23:35, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

None of your games. This could go on forever. I've given valid citations. Shorne 23:47, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

To cite is not to prove. Boraczek 09:53, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

most of these (deaths) being from natural causes

opinion as a fact; please substantiate

I cited a reference. Shorne 21:34, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

But you didn't write who claimed so. And BTW what do you consider "a natural death"? If those people were left without sufficient amount of food and they died out of hunger or exhaustion, is this a natural death? According to the statistics the death rate was 3.6% per year, which is 2 times more than the highest natural death rates. So not more than a half of these deaths can be explained as "being from natural causes". Boraczek 23:35, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The information is adequately cited, with a reference. Shorne 23:47, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The opinion is not attributed to its author. Boraczek 09:53, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Those executed represented only a fraction of the 63,000 kulaks classified as "active counterrevolutionaries"

opinion as a fact; please attribute

I did. Shorne 21:34, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm afraid you didn't. Boraczek 23:35, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Obviously no point in talking with you. Shorne 23:47, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

These data imply that the most generous estimate of the death toll for the entire period from 1930 to 1940 is about 750,000.

486,370 + 389,521 = 875,891; and these data only include those who were sent to the East.

Here's how the calculation was done: all of the 486,370 who died before reaching the labour colonies, even though many of them escaped (and did not die); half of the 389,521 who died between 1932 and 1940 (the article says that most died of natural causes); all of the 63,000 "active counterrevolutionaries, even though many of them were not executed. That gives 744,130, which is 740,000 to two significant digits; but I've gone ahead and raised it to 750,000 out of generosity. (As if the calculations themselves were not generous enough.)

Let me note that you don't include people who were killed and not sent to the East; you don't include people who were sent to prisons and concentration camps; you don't include people who were sent to the East after 1931, but died before they got there. Boraczek 23:35, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I did include all of those. Please learn to read. Shorne 23:47, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You didn't. Please read your own source carefully. Boraczek 09:53, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

some observers say that collective farms and sovkhozes were inefficient

whether you like it or not, most observers say so; a tiny minority still believes in efficiency of Soviet collective and state farms

Prove that "most" say so. And why should this matter anyway? The truth is not open to voting. Shorne 21:34, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Of course, a tiny minority may be right. But it's not fair to present a tiny minority as if it was a majority. Boraczek 23:35, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I have presented facts. I'm not even talking about minorities and majorities. It is you who are clouding the issue. Shorne 23:47, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You have presented opinions rather than facts. Boraczek 09:53, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Statistics based on value rather than volume of production give a particularly distorted view of reality

opinion as a fact, and one demonstrably false; please change

I've already demonstrated that it is correct. Shorne 21:34, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Your demonstration was far from being convincing. You only showed what possible reasons of the high percentage of production value coming from private plots are, but you didn't show why statistics based on volume should be better than statistics based on value. Boraczek 23:35, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This has already been discussed. Shorne 23:47, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yes, and you failed to substantiate the statement. Boraczek 09:53, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Private farming also turns out to be relatively inefficient

opinion as a fact; and wrongly substantiated, because, as Ruy Lopez correctly observed, there are many resources which are used in agriculture - not only labor force, but also land, capital, etc.

I mentioned all of that and gave a reference. Shorne 21:34, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The quoted statement is not substantiated though. Boraczek 23:35, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It is substantiated. Check the reference. Shorne 23:47, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Reference is not evidence.Boraczek 09:53, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

such claims tend to discuss only a small number of consumer products and do not take into account the fact that the kolkhozy and sovkhozy produced mainly grain, cotton, flax, forage, seed, and other non-consumer goods with a relatively low value per hectare.

false information; the cited statistics were related to total agricultural output in terms of value

You did not understand. Please read my sentence again until you do. Shorne 21:34, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Boraczek 17:41, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC) the cited statistics were related to total...

False argument: so far we saw a cited quotation from statistics, presented by a biased researcher. It is well known any statistics can be twisted any way, if you don't show full data. By the way, I am wondering how they have found the second number: the value of private output. I don't believe that such "anti-Soviet" numbers were published in Soviet official books. Mikkalai 19:15, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Mikkalai is right - we should get to the original statistics. Anyway, the questioned statement is not substantiated. Boraczek 09:53, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

1/4 on 2%

Removed:

with one fourth of of the value of agricultural production in 1973 being produced on the private plots peasants were allowed, only 2% of the arable land

Obviously, either the authors of the cited book don't know the subject or the quotation is out of context. For starters, how "value" is defined? By arbitrary, robbing prices imposed by state on kolkhoses and sovkhoses? Second, please tell me what percentage of agriculture production constitute technical cultures, such as cotton, flax, corn, rye/wheat for feeding livestock? I can ask you a dozen more questions. The topic simply reeks of ignorance in detail. "Richest kulaks had 3 or 4 horses". Sheesh! IMO the recents addtions made without a grain of common sense or critical thinking. Mikkalai 15:16, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

See above Talk:Collectivisation_in_the_USSR#Collectivization_percentages for extended discussion. As to the measure of value, it came from Soviet economic statistics which I presume the amount which was exchanged for the product. Fred Bauder 15:52, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

Actually, I just flashed on the likely explanation for part of this. Much of the "value" of the goods sold in the private markets, reflects both the inflated prices paid there and, more significantly, massive amounts of food stolen from state shops, by employees, that were diverted to the private markets. Fred Bauder 16:21, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

Bingo. Value is a problematic measure of production for various reasons, including the one that you cited (varying prices). The Soviet Union greatly subsidised food, to an even greater extent than a country like the US. (Stalin even pointed out that bread cost less at one point than the flour needed to make it.) Prices for publicly produced foods were lower than those for privately produced ones. Furthermore, small-scale production tends to be of a higher quality, which is part of the reason that lots of people keep a small garden, bake their own bread, or make their own jam when all those things can be bought at the grocery store. (Incidentally, the labour theory of value would say that many of those products do have a greater value, precisely because they require more socially necessary labour.)

For those reasons, the value of privately produced products is high out of proportion to the amount produced.

Believe me, the Soviet economists who reported these figures would have expanded the private sector if these data had indeed proven that smallholders outproduced large-scale communes. Shorne 21:25, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't believe you Shorne, Soviet economists did no such thing although you would see if you read The Second Socialist Revolution reforms were in the works, and I think remain in the works in Russia today. The rigidity of the Soviet Union was legendary. Fred Bauder 21:34, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

They didn't make those "reforms" because the evidence did not suggest that the "reforms" were warranted. I'm not going to argue with you anymore; you obviously cannot or will not participate in a rational discussion. Shorne 22:17, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You didn't answer my questions. The refernce nothe above discussion page talks about three of four products, which correspond to direct consumer goods: potatoes, etc. You cannot attribute these numbers to 'all agriculture. In the same way I can write 98% of all cotton, 70% of all corn, 99% of all flax... were produced at non-private land. Mikkalai 19:25, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This is not to say that this figure dramatically depended on year. You cannot put such out-of-the-blue data in an intro. Mikkalai 19:35, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Exactly. People produced tomatoes and eggs on their private plots, not cotton and flax—and, as I said, not even wheat and barley. I see here a very ignorant view of agriculture as the means of producing the bacon and eggs that you have for breakfast. Again, there are other enormous problems with this single number that supposedly summarises all of Soviet agriculture, such as those that we have already pointed out. Shorne 20:54, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A direct example of blatant nosense in the sources cited: "30 percent of meat and milk". Was the author aware that in Soviet Union it was forbidden to keep private livestock beyond immediate family needs? From my own childhood I remember the only years we used to eat beef were when the cow brought twins: every year a calf per cow had to be delivered to sovkhoz farm; otherwise you wouldn't receive a plot for hay. (And by the way, the whole hay and grass came from the state/colkhoz land; so much for the 2%.) Mikkalai 21:09, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

And of course this bullshit article doesn't even try to take into an account circumstances in such radically different regions as Baltia, Siberia, Central Russia, Kalmyckia, Ukraine, Caucasus, Uzbekistan, Moldova. A nice average number for all orangs and oranges, a kind of statistics good for propaganda only. Mikkalai 21:20, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

BTW I am not denying that Soviet agriculture was a disaster.And it deserves a separate, serious article Agriculture in the USSR, with analysis of various factors, such as rural demographics, price scissors, wage inequality, low level of living conditions, bureaucratic management, etc., including timeline display. Mikkalai 21:26, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yes, Agriculture in the USSR, great minds agree... Fred Bauder 21:30, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

Well, we've established that the statistic quoted is a Soviet government statistic; it is only "out of the blue" if you are unfamiliar with the situation which a person raised in the Soviet Union might well be. Back in the 80s I used to tell people that I knew more about the Soviet Union than any person living there. The sad thing, it was true, because the common people had no access to outside or secret Soviet information and the rulers were being lied to by their underlings. If it was "forbidden" to keep private livestock, explain the information on page 23 of The Second Socialist Revolution ISBN 025336860X Fred Bauder 21:28, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

Oh, sure, you know so goddam much from your armchair. Leafing through The Black Book of Communism makes you an authority on the Soviet Union. Pffffffft. Shorne 22:17, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Explanation is simple: the word mis, as in misinformation. I know 100% that in my childhood (time of Khrushchev) people cut away fruit gardens because there was a tax per tree. Is there a line about this in your statistics? I know from personal experience that a commission would walk over dwellings and measure the volume of hay stocked for winter. If you had too much that would mean you have an extra cow, and get ready to meet with "tovarishch prokuror" (comrade Prosecutor). Mikkalai 21:38, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

And by the way, what do you think, was comrade Prosecutor right? Yes he was. If you have four cows, what would your productivity be in kolkhoz? There was a popular Soviet patriotic song: "Everything is kolkhoz's now, everything is mine!" (Vsyo teper kolkhoznoye, vsyo teper moyo!) And very soon it had become a popular slogan of petty thieves. (80% of population were thieves in late Soviet Union. You could not buy a nail or a wooden board; you had to steal it at a construction site.) 21:48, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I have to agree with Fred Bauder here Mikkalai. Who should you believe, some book Fred Bauder has on his bookshelf or your own two eyes? Obviously the former, he knows "more about the Soviet Union than any person living there...the common people had no access to outside or secret Soviet information". Ruy Lopez 22:29, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've already discussed this in the Collectivization percentages section here somewhat, but the statistics that a quarter of the production was on 2-3% of the land which was privatized does not indicate that the collectives were weak or inefficient. There are more factors than what percentage of the land was used but, what products are being made? How much capital is being used? How much labor is being expended on the products? If you grow wheat on 97% of a field, and I grow cannabis sativa on another 3%, don't be surprised if the 3% has more worth than that grown on the 97%. Nancy Nimitz estimated roughly 40% of labor input went into that 3% of land, while 60% went into the other 97%, making it no surprise that 3% of land yielded commodities with a higher value. Growing potatos is more labor intensive than growing wheat, so it's no surprise that if this was primarily grown on private plots, it was worth more. This says nothing about the weakness or inefficiency of the collectives - in fact, with 40% of the labor input yet only 25% or so of the yield, in terms of labor time, the private famring is what seems inefficient. Ruy Lopez 22:56, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Private farming is indeed inefficient. Even capitalists know that. That's why they've gone to enormous corporate farms instead of smallholdings. Shit, the British aristocracy had figured that out several hundred years ago. And now, in the twenty-first century, some backward-looking people are glorifying that precious half hectare over the vast unbroken expanses of collective fields.

Incidentally, this also explains the growth in production after the disastrous destruction of the people's communes in China. The communes were carved up into tiny strips of land that could not be farmed efficiently. Production went down. Then the wealthier or more aggressive started snatching up others' land and turning it into big fields again. Production went back up. (Per-capita production is still lower than in the days of the collectives, however.)

I'd also like to address the statement that the Soviet Union devoted far more labour and other resources to agriculture than the industrialised Western countries did. Big deal! First, the Soviet Union started out far, far behind the West. Second, it did catch up dramatically and increase industry over agriculture. Third, much of the reason that the West can get away with little agriculture is that it procures much of its food from the Third World. Shorne 23:19, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Shorne, an exercise in logic cannot substitute for reliable references, nor can unsupported suppositions like, "Third, much of the reason that the West can get away with little agriculture is that it procures much of its food from the Third World". I wish they did import some food from the third world rather than flood the world market with subsidized surplus production. Fred Bauder 01:04, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)

You've looked at the data? Where the hell do you think the US gets its coffee: New Hampshire?

And you have the nerve to call me a "POV warrior" when it is you who insist on inserting data that you don't understand and that have been shown not to represent what you claim they do. Shorne 01:38, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Coffee is a food? There are some specialty foods such as bananas and mangoes that come from the tropics, but it's a strange version of reality that has the US importing staples like wheat, milk, and beef when it's well-known as a leading producer of all these. Stan 09:02, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The US does import beef from South America and other places. It also imports lots of cattle from Canada, although lately that trade has been disrupted.

Incidentally, the Soviet Union was the world's largest producer of all three of those commodities at the time of its dissolution. Shorne 09:16, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

So you acknowledge that the US does not get much of its wheat or milk from Third World countries then? (Canada is a Third World country?) And why does everything you say seem strangely familiar, as if I'd just read it on the plp.org website fifteen minutes ago? Don't you use any other sources? Stan 09:27, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Statistics based on value rather than volume of production give a particularly distorted view of reality

This is a very strange sentence. Do you intend to build a synthetic measure based on volume of production? Do you want to add litres of milk and litres of grain? To add tons of cotton and litres of feces? To add quintals of low-quality grain and quintals of high-quality grain, which can be worth much more? This seems to be a very strange way of thinking. When we are talking about efficiency, what interests us is how much wealth was produced and what amount of resources was used to produce it. And produced wealth is the value of produced goods. I agree that it is important how value is measured and that it can affect our conclusions. But it seems to me we merely speculate on the matter. Did anyone actually check how value of production was defined in the Soviet statistics? It is possible that the difference in produced value is to some extent due to the difference in prices. What some interlocutors seem to overlook is that the difference in prices documents the exploitation of peasants in collective and state farms (because they would be better off selling their production in a private market instead of giving it as compulsory supply). So if we assumed that the difference in produced value is exclusively caused by the difference in prices, a possible conclusion could be that the exploitation of peasants in the SU was bigger than in any capitalist country.

I agree that the way the production value was measured could have distorted the view of reality. And it needs some further investigation. But if we simply measure the volume of production, the view would probably be much more distorted. Boraczek 13:42, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Actually, just as a first pass, total kilogrammes wouldn't be a bad measure. Obviously it would be far too rough. I'm afraid that's how things go, though. You won't find a single percentage that adequately summarises all of Soviet agronomy over seventy-odd years. You need to do a more sophisticated analysis. If you're serious about discovering the truth, that is.

As I have already said, you're not comparing like to like. There's a big difference between feeding a country and providing supplementary food or income for one family, and that difference is represented in the choices made. If I were a Soviet collective farmer with half a hectare at my disposal for private use, would I plant barley, flax, and alfalfa? Hell, no! I'd probably plant an assortment of vegetables and raise some livestock (with grain and hay produced elsewhere). But the collective farms cannot make the same decision. They have to produce a lot of barley and such. You cannot compare them so easily to tiny farms that operate under very different conditions.

The existence of a private market does not prove exploitation. Perhaps some other part of the economy was exploited to subsidise the farmers; you haven't demonstrated that this is not the case. Or perhaps no one was exploited. There may have been exploitation, but you need more information to prove it. Shorne 22:00, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This article is about history ONLY

I have found a piece about Soviet agiculture in wikipedia and made it into Agriculture of the Soviet Union. You are welcome to move this shitmixing talk over there. I am done for the topic. Mikkalai 20:30, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"Silly anecdote"

You didn't bother to read the Fordson tractor article and apparently didn't take trouble to visualize the enormous difference between propaganda by speeches about "bright future" and actually seeing an actual tractor to enhance productivity. Fordson in steel spoke to peasants better than thousand speeches in air. I thought you have already noticed the difference between some politicizing editors here and me, who prefers to add facts rather than interpretations from leftist or rightist POVs. Mikkalai 16:53, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What is really silly, is that the current article paints a picture of bolsheviks running countryside with speeches and slogans for bright future, and when it didn't help they started running around with guns. My "silly anecdote" tells you that there was more than words and guns speaking in favor of kolkhozes. Mikkalai 18:16, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You are right that I didn't take the time to look into the matter, and my edit was premature. You have my apologies. Still, you should try to refrain from insulting people gratuitously in your edit comments... -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:33, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Famine

Allow me to rephrase my comments, which were too abbreviated on the history page. No one denies that there was a famine. The following notions, however, are dubious at best: 1) that millions upon millions of Ukrainians died—strictly fiction cooked up by various Nazi-supporting propagandists and their agents; 2) that information about the famine was suppressed by the government. Shorne 19:37, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

(2) It was dismissed by Stalin when Ukrainian Party leaders (e.g., Kosior) asked for reduction of agricultural quotas because of drought. For starters, I suggest you to read the correspondence between Stalin and Kaganovich:

Stalin i Kaganovich. Perepiska. 1931-1936. O. V. Khlevnyuk et al. (eds),(Moscow, 2001)
The Stalin-Kaganovich Correspondence, 1931-1936 (Annals of Communism S.) I. Stalin, Lazar Kaganovich, Oleg V. Khlevnyuk (Editor), Liudmila P. Kosheleva (Editor), E.A. Rees (Editor), Larisa A. Rogovaya (Editor), R.W. Davies (Editor), Steven Shabad (Translator) Yale University Press. ISBN 0300093675

His dismissal of the request does not amount to suppression of information about the famine. He was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. Reduce the quotas, and there would have been famine in the cities. He maintained the quotas, and there was famine in part of the countryside. The real villains were those kulaks who caused the famine in the first place by slaughtering cattle, burning crops, and engaging in other destructive activity. If some of them died of famine, I say they got what they deserved. Shorne 20:55, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

As for slaughtering cattle this was exactly vice versa: there was no forage for cattle, and it was slaughtered, both for food and for not to waste. Famine was caused by draught, which has been befalling Russia once in 11-12 years for hundreds of years. Read the blooming geography and history before writing nonsense. Mikkalai 21:51, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You are probably right about the problem with quotas, but this doesn't dismiss the fact that unlike the previous drought, the country knew little about famine countryside. And the blockade there was for good. I only need to find documents, just you wait. Mikkalai 22:03, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I will continue this discussion when you have learnt to keep a civil tongue in your mouth. Shorne 22:00, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

For the record, Mikkalai originally wrote "fucking" instead of "blooming". Shorne 10:42, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

And I will probably no longer duscuss anything with you. Unlike many of us, during our discussions you have learned nothing. Thank you for being pain in the lower backbone that made many of us dig better in the original documents. A have already admitted elsewhere that this is your useful contribution and for sole this reason I refused to take part in conflict resolution against you. But still you need to read more blooming books and refresh your opinions once in a while. Mikkalai 22:05, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This supposed famine was missed by the entire world press, including the New York Times, which, when Joseph Goebbels claimed a Ukranian famine, said it had not happened. Aside from Goebbels, the idea a famine happened did not exist until the beginning of the Cold War, when historians and propagandists began reviving Goebbels claims. This idea of a Ukranian famine is a joke. At least the claims of problems in China during the Great Leap Forward has a basis - they did have problems, although they have been exaggerated. The Ukranian Famine on the other hand is mostly invention. My "sources" are the world press which, with the exception of Goebbels underlings, denied a famine ever happened, including the New York Times. In fact, the New York Times won the Pulitzer prize in the early 1930s for its reporting on the Five Year Plan. Ruy Lopez 23:21, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, the extent of the "famine" was largely confined to the kulaks who refused to sow their fields or who destroyed crops, livestock, and other property. Evidently these people were banking on getting fed by the government. Well, tough. People who contribute nothing to society, who even impede food production by wasting the best land in the country and destroying food on a large scale, will be the last to get a seat at the dinner table. Paraphrasing II Thessalonians iii.10, Lenin said "He who does not work, neither shall he eat". I see nothing wrong with that.

Tottle's book, which I cited in the article, quotes the Western press extensively to show the evolution of this tale about a famine in the Ukraine. It corroborates Ruy Lopez's statements: originally an outright lie cooked up in the papers of Nazi William Randolph Hearst with the assistance of a handful of seedy characters (including an escaped convict who later admitted in court that he had never been to the Ukraine and that his photos of starving people were from other times and places), it was originally denied by the mainstream press as a piece of Nazi fiction. Only later did they find it convenient to embrace the tale spun by these Nazis and the latter-day "scholars" like Conquest who lent a veneer of academic credibility to their reports. Shorne 10:42, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ruy Lopez removed these sentences:

"In 1998 the fourth Saturday of each November was set aside as [[National Day of Remembrance of Famine Victims]] in the Ukraine. The [[Famine monument]] on [[Mykhailivskyi Square]] in [[Kiev]] commemorates the victims of the Great Famine."

Please note the references. This is simply a report of the modern Ukrainian point of view. The thing is that not only in the Ukraine but throughout the region affected by collectivization there were millions of witnesses, some of them still living, who saw children, the elderly and others die. They didn't control newspapers but thousands of them eventually told their stories. Fred Bauder 00:22, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

Using comments as references

I have restored the comments which contain references. I believe they are important with respect to disputed facts, which is almost every word in the current athmosphere which prevails in this article. References in comments is the method I prefer but we could try footnotes with references at the foot of the article or on a reference page, see Wikipedia:References and Wikipedia:Cite sources, and also, perhaps, Wikipedia:Footnotes. I find the proposed system extremely awkward. There is ongoing work in this area at Wikipedia:WikiProject Fact and Reference Check. Fred Bauder 12:54, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

The suggestion that the facts are "in history" and thus accessible is not practical as it can be very time consuming to locate any particular reference. By including them in the article editors can, while editing the article, access the information that was used to support an assertion and judge for themselves the context and applicability of the reference. This is especially important with The Black Book of Communism which incorporates numerous references within itself and varies in quality. However, the portion written by Werth on the Soviet Union is generally considered reliable. Fred Bauder 12:54, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

Generally considered reliable by whom? Shorne 13:09, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

On the current article, bold assertions are often made essentially without reference or using a reference from a biased or misinformed source, for example, "The Ukranian Famine on the other hand is mostly invention. My "sources" are the world press which, with the exception of Goebbels underlings, denied a famine ever happened, including the New York Times. In fact, the New York Times won the Pulitzer prize in the early 1930s for its reporting on the Five Year Plan." above. That the New York Times was hoodwinked is part of the story alright but using the articles they published in 1932 and 1933 as references for our encyclopedia article written in 2004 falls of its own absurdity. Fred Bauder 12:54, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

First, Ruy Lopez said that on the talk page, not in the article. Second, your claim "[t]hat the New York Times was hoodwinked" is itself a bold assertion with no reference. Third, you haven't shown what is absurd about quoting their articles from the 1930s. Shorne 13:09, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You could start with the fact that even the Pulitzer Committee itself recently stated:

"Mr. Duranty's 1931 work, measured by today's standards for foreign reporting, falls seriously short." (Pulitzer Statement quoted in the Ukrainian Weekly).

If that's insufficient, how about the NYT itself, which displays this notice with Duranty's 1932 Pulitzer:

"Other writers in the Times and elsewhere have discredited this coverage" (AP Story).

You can't see what's absurd about quoting 70-year-old reports as fact when the Pulitzer Committee heavily qualifies a decision to let the award stand and even the publishing organization itself disavows their credibility? Horbal 09:24, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

From the statement of the Pulitzer committee after considering revocation of the award:

"The famine of 1932-1933 was horrific and has not received the international attention it deserves. By its decision, the Board in no way wishes to diminish the gravity of that loss. The Board extends its sympathy to Ukrainians and others in the United States and throughout the world who still mourn the suffering and deaths brought on by Josef Stalin." (Pulitzer Statement quoted in the Ukrainian Weekly) Fred Bauder 12:54, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

From the AP story on Ohio.com:

"Duranty covered the Soviet Union for the Times from 1922 to 1941, earning acclaim for an exclusive 1929 interview with Stalin. (AP Story)

But Duranty was eventually exposed for reporting the Communist line rather than the facts. According to the 1990 book "Stalin's Apologist," Duranty knew of the famine but ignored the atrocities to preserve his access to Stalin." (AP Story)

and

"Gissler pointed out that most of the complaints related to Duranty's coverage of the forced famine, which began in 1932. Although the foreign correspondent won the Pulitzer that year, it was for stories he had written a year earlier." (AP Story)

Sally J. Taylor, Stalin's Apologist: Walter Duranty : The New York Times Man in Moscow, Oxford University Press (1990), hardcover, ISBN 0195057007

I have restored the references to the casualties section and will continue to restore them indefinitely as I will restore anyone else's references. Information and its reference need to be readily referenced in order to edit an article. Any system which separates them makes adequate checking and verification of information much more difficult. There is a great deal of information in this article which is not referenced. My suggestion is that it all should be referenced as should all information in Wikipedia. Fred Bauder 14:24, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

I know it makes it difficult for those who do not use references or respect them to edit the article, simply adding and deleting information according to how they make you feel, but that is part of the discipline of fact-based writing, encyclopedic writing, a standard that may reasonably be expected here. Wikipedia articles are not vehicles for advocacy or propaganda, see Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. Fred Bauder 14:24, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

A paragraph that needs work

However, these totals are a subject of intense controversy and dispute. In 1990, when Soviet archives were opened to outside scholars, the following figures were released by Soviet and foreign scholars, such as Nicolas Werth. Of the 1,803,392 persons relocated, 1,317,022 reached the labour colonies; the remaining 486,370 either died (mostly from epidemics, poor sanitary conditions, or the failure of local officials to comply with state policy) or escaped. Deaths between 1932 and the end of 1940 totalled 389,521, most of these being from natural causes. Those executed represented only a fraction of the 63,000 kulaks classified as "active counterrevolutionaries". [11] [12] These data imply that the most generous estimate of the death toll for the entire period from 1930 to 1940 is about 750,000. [13]

I do not advocate removal of the above material. But ambiguities need to be removed and proper attribution of these views made. For example, Nicolas Werth, a respectable scholar seems from the language to have "released the following figures"; he is quoted in the book the links are to, but the figures are not from him. Also links, as opposed to references make this particular reference stand out disporportiately without idenifying the nature or name of the book or the website it is on. Also the phasing is confusing. Fred Bauder 13:02, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

While I believe the information in the paragraph is false and would have a great deal of trouble revising it myself, it is Wikipedia policy that all significant points of view should be included in an article. One question is how is the point of view which this minimization of casualties represents. I would say Stalinist apologists and historical revisionists, but rather than me so characterizing the view point I suggest those who would include this material try to characterize their own point of view. Fred Bauder 14:17, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Fred that the paragraph in question is particularly objectionable for at least four reasons:

It assumes that Soviet archives are a reliable source for information about a genocide perpetrated by Soviet leaders. Furthermore, as Fred pointed out, what is Werth's role? Is the data his or is he merely repeating official Soviet numbers? If it's the latter, why mention him at all?
It says nothing about the fate of the 1.3 million people sent to forced labour camps, only that they arrived at the colonies:
"Here is what some eyewitnesses wrote about their experiences: 'Barefooted and poorly clad peasants were jammed into railroad cars and transported to the regions of Murmansk and the like. Peasants were unloaded into snow about two metres deep. The frost stood at 75 degrees below zero. Without even an axe or a saw we began building huts from tree branches. In two weeks all the children, the sick and the elderly had frozen to death.'" ArtUkraine.com
Other accounts put the survival rate of forced labourers below 50% in their first winter. Such a number would more than double the deaths accounted for in the paragraph.
The statistics defy logic. Only 400,000 people died, of any cause, over 8 years in a country of approximately 30 million? Even if you rely on the official Soviet numbers (I wouldn't), there is still a large discrepancy:
"We do know that according to the 1926 Soviet population census there were 31.2 million Ukrainians in the U.S.S.R. According to the 1939 Soviet census this number had dropped by 3.1 million to 28.1 million. (There was no emigration from the Soviet Ukraine in this period.) Over a 13-year period, according to Soviet statistics, the number of Ukrainians had diminished by 11 per cent. The population of the U.S.S.R., on the other hand, increased by 16 per cent and the number of Russians by 28 per cent." ArtUkraine.com
Finally, virtually no mention is made of the people who died as a result of harsh enforcement of unrealistic harvest quotas (i.e., starved to death). The paragraph implies that only rich kulaks were punished and dismisses the widespread suffering of the entire rural population as "failure of local officials to comply with state policy".

I also think it's more than a little disingenuous to exclusively cite one work, written with what appears to be a very clear pro-Stalin bias, as though it were the most authoritative source of facts and figures. Horbal 19:19, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Website that might prove useful

20th century deaths. Another, with some personal stories [14]. Fred Bauder 15:59, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

Zbignlew Brzezinski quote

I did not put the Zbignlew Brzezinski estimate in and cannot find it easily on the internet. It is superflous and may be removed, in my opinion, without harm. However, it is hardly the only asserted fact which is not referenced. A great deal more work needs to be done along that line with respect to this article and other Wikipedia articles. Fred Bauder 16:03, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

Brzezinski didn't do original research on the topic. Therefore Brzezinski's quote is irrelevant and must be removed. I could have added here quite a few anti-Soviet qoutes by various politicialns from the times of Cold War with even more "interesting" "facts". Mikkalai 16:26, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

VeryVerily and protection

I'm going to request protection for this page. I have given up faith that VeryVerily is willing to work things out on this or any page long ago. Coming to a consensus with him edit warring here is impossible. Ruy Lopez 19:07, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ruy Lopez, Your problem is not with VeryVerily who, without my request, is simply backing me up on general principles. It is with me. Could you please discuss the basis for your edits. Fred Bauder 23:29, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

within the last 24 hours, VeryVerily has reverted this page a total of 6 times. Is this what you mean by backing you up, breaking the three revert rule - on "general principles"? Within the last 24 hours I have editted this page twice. I don't break Wikipedia rules to get my way, unlike your backup. Of course, VeryVerily, who has been banned before for breaking this very same rule, is currently in arbitration for his flagrant disregard of Wikipedia rules. Well, no need to go into all of that, but while VeryVerily is breaking the three revert rule on this page, you are incorrect - my problem very much is with him. Ruy Lopez 07:48, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Fred Bauder's deletion

Fred Bauder, you cannot just delete whole passages of text because you think that someone else should revise them. If you have a small disagreement about the phrasing, propose something else.

Furthermore, it was entirely irresponsible of you to revert a whole batch of changes by Ruy Lopez indiscriminately. I have restored the material. Please discuss any disagreements here before making changes. Shorne 21:35, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You do not want me to edit that material. I can only present it as false information. It is up to you to get it into shape suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. For example, where do the numbers come from; what do they mean; and who advances them? Fred Bauder 23:34, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

This is childish. The material is amply cited and clearly explained. It was there for days and days, with your knowledge, before you came along and deleted it—dishonestly calling it "false information" when you yourself acknowledged that it belongs here. As to not wanting you to edit the material, I told you to edit it rather than deleting it. N.B.: That doesn't mean that any haphazard editing that you do will be acceptable. So don't write a POV screed and then come back later saying that I approved it. Shorne 23:55, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Oh the irony - "you cannot just delete whole passages of text because you think that someone else should revise them". That is just hilarious - happy to exploit the weaknesses of the system when pushing your POV, then whining when it's done to you. Stan 04:24, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If you'll open your eyes, you'll see that there's a big difference between deleting extensively cited factual material and removing one-sided POV opinion pieces. Shorne 16:04, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Oh yes, we must carefully preserve every link to the crude slanders on plp.org, while deleting material from actual scholars because it doesn't agree with some pseudonymous person's POV. Stan 16:42, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Factual accuracy

I inserted totallydisputed template in the article. Quick check on my printed encyclopedia shows major differences in reasons for collectivisation it's results and implementation. Przepla 23:30, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Explain. Everyking 00:20, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Otherwise be reverted. Potentially every artcile contents may be imprecise. If you know the problem, fix it or point to it. On web you may find polarized opinions on any subject. It is not the reason to litter articles with labels. Mikkalai 01:03, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I intended to correct it during weekend. I apologize for not explaing properly. Basically, my encyclopedia states that main reasons for collectivisation was:

-liquidation of private property,

-puting agricultural production under state control,

-moving workforce from agricultural into heavy industry.

Nothing is being said about increased production.

Moreover, my encyclopedia uses the word terror in describing the politics during collectivisation, estimates death toll for over 14.5 millions humans, lowering level of life over 40%. Production was restored to pre-collectivisation level in the end of 50s. Collectivisation was the reason for food rationing. My encyclopeadia states that kulaks, didn't sabotage anything, they just protects themselves from starvation.

My source is Nowa Encyklopedia Popularna PWN from 1995-1998. Online version is available at [15]; it is however in Polish.

In short, there are many differences between what I read there and here, thus I inserted factual dispute disclaimer. Przepla 11:52, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Private property - You hit the nail.
state control - mentioned
heavy industry - nonsense; how kolkhozes can move workforce to industry?
increased production - you hit your finger. Of course it was the goal.
terror - the article says about this, although without high emotions.
death toll: even anti-kommunist Brzezinsky (a Pole, btw) tallies to 7 mln. Your 15 is fantasy.
"restored by end of 50s to precoll". Wrong. Pre-coll level was low. There was grain shortage. There was terrible famine of 1921-1923. (before coll) Usually the comparison is with 1913. BTW, hid you happen to notice there was ww2 between 30s & 50s? So this "fact" is a hit below the waist, if presented without mentioning ww2.
kulaks. They did protect themselves and they did sabotage, to protect themselves.

Mikkalai 22:39, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

changes

- using the word alienation, especially with all the Marxian connotations can lead to confusion to the point where it almost seems intentional. I have removed the word.

- another flag word is productivity and the many connotations of it. One sentence is: "Despite the initial plans and expectations, collectivisation, accompanied by the bad harvest of 1932–1933, led to a drop in farming productivity, which did not regain the NEP level until 1940." Productivity can mean so many things, what specifically is meant here. I'm quite sure I could show (some aspect of) productivity went up in this time frame. Please be more specific.

- removed some POV adjectives whom I assume from the style (although I didn't look) were probably written by Fred Bauder. "Just the facts, ma'am". Ruy Lopez 09:04, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Casualties

- OK the other sections are mostly acceptable, this is the section where most of the disagreements are in. I find this section ridiculously slanted. While this supposed famine was happening, no one in the world, not the British press, not the American press, no one saw it happening. Well actually Goebbels claimed there was a famine, but the Western press denied it was true, from New York Times reporter Walter Duranty on down the line. When the Cold War started, some anti-communists dug up Goebbels old charges and published them as fact. Anyhow, this will probably go back and forth but I have a problem with large sections of the casualties section.

Rehabilitating the Nazis, that's what it is. Goebbels, Hearst, and some other Nazis manufactured these lies, then suddenly (lo and behold!) they became the truth in the 1950s. Shorne 09:56, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

- I should point out I left things such as "Many estimates of the death toll of collectivisation include those who died in the resulting famine, 6 million according to Nicolas Werth, 7 million according to Zbigniew Brzezinski, not including those who died in labor camps." Well I find the introducing clause as probably POV but it is a fact that Werth said this, Brzezinski said that and so forth. I would have a problem with the article saying as a fact that 6-7 million died, but I have no problem saying Werth/Brzezinski said so. The former is disputed, the latter is fact, they did say that, whether they are right or not. Ruy Lopez 09:19, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't buy the claim by Brzezinski. Did he do any research? No, he was just aping something that someone else said. We might as well cite our next-door neighbours if we're going to use sources like Brzezinski. (And need I point out that no citation is given?) The one by Werth is OK, with a reference—and with the more scientific discussion that I and others provided. Shorne 09:56, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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