Talk:Collage

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[edit] The History

I think it is important to note that Georges Braque and Pablo Picasso were working side by side during the first decade of the 20th century. Picasso did not necessarily invent collage or at least not alone. There is much evidence that Braque actually created the first collage. At any rate a fair wikipedia entry must mention that both Braque and Picasso were working in collage simultaneously at the very beginning. Some resources to help: <http://abstractart.20m.com/George_Braque.html> <http://www.sharecom.ca/greenberg/collage.html>

[edit] Collage and surrealism

[edit] Removed

I removed the following lines:

Surrealism has made extensive use of the collage, and certain kinds of, and methods for making, collages, have been significant in surrealism. Among these have been torn paper collage, inimage, and the methods invented by Penelope Rosemont, the prehensilhouette and the landscapade.

Many art forms use collage. To only mention surrealism is silly. Also, there is no mention anywhere in literature or websites that I could find of inimage, prehensilouette or landscapade, except those attributed to Daniel Boyer himself. If more reliable sources can be provided, then I could change my mind on this note. SpeakerFTD 17:17, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Firstly, surrealism is not an "art form". Secondly, I think that collages significant in other fields than surrealism should most definitely be mentioned in this article (for instance, decoupage); we should have a substantial article here. For an external source on some of this see Surrealist Games/Includes Books and Games by Alastair Brotchie (Compiler), Mel Gooding (Editor) or Penelope Rosemont's Surrealist Experiences. I am much surprised that you are unable to find information on the World Wide Web "except [that] attributed to Daniel Boyer himself" about inimage (you can see this at [1]), the prehensilhouette [2], and the landscapade [3]. --Daniel C. Boyer 19:52, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)


[edit] Surrealist collage techniques

I see what Wik has done in his edit. What is the proper way to deal with types of surrealist and non-surrealist collage in this article? Is there going to be no mention of any surrealist collage technique, or should there be no such mention? How is this best to be dealt with? --Daniel C. Boyer 20:27, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

You can mention common techniques of surrealist collage, if there are any, but prehensilhouette or landscapade seem to be just Penelope Rosemont's personal techniques (or her personal fancy terms for not particularly profound ideas) which have not spread much further. Your own Google links above prove it. --Wik 20:50, Aug 5, 2003 (UTC)
I like Wik's edit. I also have no problem with the addition of statements about other collage techniques, both surrealist and non-surrealist, as long as evidence of the factuality of the statements can be sourced from multiple, independent sources. None of the sources evidenced above qualify as independent.SpeakerFTD 21:08, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)
What on earth are you talking about? In what sense are they not "independent?" --Daniel C. Boyer 22:27, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I find it tedious that we need to get to this level of granularity in the debate, but I suppose that is a necessity when the reliability of sources is being considered.
You list three techniques.
I will concede that the first technique, "inimage", seems to have two sources [4][5] independent of the statement's author. These potentially could be viewed as evidence of independence. Although I am personally still dubious of the reliability of those two sources, without evidence to contradict their independence, the sources must be assumed to be independent and the statement should stand.
But the other two techniques seem to have no independent sources.
Prehensilhouette - Only two sources, one of which is wikipedia. The other source [6] sells a book from Mr. Boyer. Not exactly independent.
This is really a moot point as one can get Penelope Rosemont's book from many other sources than this. To impose this level of standard for "independence" would cause Wikipedia to devolve into total unworkability; are we to say that anyone who had something for sale of Amazon.com would have no right to cite anything else sold thereby? We are reaching an apotheosis of ridiculousness. --Daniel C. Boyer 14:38, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)
You misunderstand me. I am discussing sources, as in written sources, not retail outlets. The only other written source about prehensilhouette other than Ms. Rosemont's own book
Explain to me why her book is not a source. --Daniel C. Boyer 14:39, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)
is a discussion on surrealism-usa.org, yet this entity has a financial interest in both Ms. Rosemont and Mr. Boyer. If an independent source can be found (again I mean written sources here, not retail sources), then I would be willing to accept that this is a legitimate technique.
SpeakerFTD 15:21, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Landscapade - Again the only two sources are the above site and a second site selling another book from the same publishing company. Neither source is independent.
If you can find me one source that independently describes prehensilhouette and landscapade, I'll relent. Independent means that the source is in no way related to or controlled by the author and the author does not have a fiduciary or similarly beneficial relationship with the source.
SpeakerFTD 23:59, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Cite: Review of Surrealist Experiences. Relent. --Daniel C. Boyer 18:37, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Decoupage

I know my mention of decoupage is not up to snuff; can anyone help me flesh this out? --Daniel C. Boyer 18:29, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Lacerated posters

I am going to be placing Lacerated posters on the Requested articles page. How should this topic be fit into collage, since it really is a form of "decollage"? --Daniel C. Boyer 00:15, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC) Daniel, Speaker FTD has a very valid point. Penelope Rosemont is your friend and it appears that you have some kind of financial stake in your friend Ron's book. How much does, "SURREALIST SUBVERSIONS" sell for? You know, Dan, the book written by the expert on pirate radio, or is it the expert on Surrealism?

[edit] Stub

Why is this once long article now a stub? Hyacinth 11:53, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'm glad its no longer a stub. Hyacinth 09:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What collage is about

You're forgetting what collage is about. Surreal or not. Collage nevers falls under the same theme; Give two artists the same images, and they'll make two diffrent and stlyized collages. It kills me, that you can write about art and all, but you have trouble discussing it. Collage can be about really anything the artist wants it to be about. But, I'm just an artist who likes J.D. Salinger and all.

[edit] Attribution problem

The article states, "Collage was often called the art form of the 20th century...". Such a statement, it seems to me, needs attribution. Furthermore, since the writer says it was "often" thus called, there should be several examples given.

I completely agree. Furthermore, the placement of the statement is kind of random; it's like a little lost orphan sentence. I think other contributors here have just tried to be nice and leave the sentence as is, while trying to build a decent article around it. No one wants to be the meany who deletes it. But we have given the writer plenty of time to come forward and attribute this statement, and to write it properly into context. How polite do we have to be when somebody cares so little about their own work? MdArtLover 13:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
(I just realized that the above statement was a reply to myself! No wonder I agreed so heartily! ;) MdArtLover 14:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
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