Talk:Coat of arms

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Contents 1 Questions 2 Crest of arms? 3 unsourced? 4 Opening ¶ 5 Oversweepingly broad statement 6 quarterly 7 flexible standards 8 External link removal? 9 Helmets 10 Coats of Arms and Fair Use

[edit] Questions

Though a coat of arms certainly has to do with heraldry, I think it deserves its own article. jheijmans

I did consider the option of renaming the Heraldry page to Coat of arms as this is all it currently covers. One definition (which I would concur with) is

The art or office of a herald; the art, practice, or science of recording genealogies, and blazoning arms or ensigns armorial; also, of marshaling cavalcades, processions, and public ceremonies. Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. User:Rjstott

• "Experts" NEVER use the term "Coat of Arms" when they could use Armorial Bearings! Skull 'n' Femurs 16:00, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

That is simply false. What I suspect you mean is that when they're feeling in a formal mood they tend to write "armorial bearings." But in everyday speech and writing, they use "coat of arms" or (even more frequently) "arms" as shorthand all the time: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] etc., etc. Doops | talk 18:45, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

User Doopshas validated my point, above, by trying to refute it. All the references cited are “magazine” or “brochure” style pages. The articles in Wikipedia form a more formal encyclopedia and should use a more formal style. "Experts" NEVER use the term "Coat of Arms" when they could use Armorial Bearings in a formal context, such as here in the Wikipedia. "Arms" may well be used, if referenced or defined - when first used - to replace of the continuous use of “Armorial Bearings”. "The origin of the Coat of Arms was a jacket or tabard worn by a mediaeval Knight over his armour in order to identify himself. Nowadays the expression "Coat of Arms" is generally applied to what is officially called an "Achievement", which consists of various parts: a shield, helmet, mantling, wreath, crest, motto and sometimes supporters and decorations." [6] Now here, "generally applied" is not in a more formal context, such as a Wikipedia article. Talk Skull 'n' Femurs 10:24, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, then, I misunderstood your point. Sorry. I thought you were trying to imply that the phrase "coat of arms" is somehow wrong. It isn't. We should reserve our opprobrium for things (like "crest of arms") which are actually out-and-out wrong.

I think, too, that you're overestimating the informality of "coat of arms." It's not tee-shirt-and-jeans informal; it's shirt-and-tie informal. If the wikipedia changed every instance of "arms" or "coat of arms" to "armorial bearings" it would be dressing up in white-tie-and-tails formal, which is overkill, even for the wikipedia. You're right, of course, that heralds use "arms" more often than "coat of arms" — "arms" is shorter! In for a penny, in for a pound. Doops | talk 10:31, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

By the way, it was silly that "armorial bearings" didn't appear in the page and didn't redirect here. I've fixed that now. Doops | talk 10:37, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Crest of arms?

I suggested a while back that coat of arms is also sometimes referred to as crest of arms, but an editor refuted my claim (edit summary was: "crest of arms? there aint no such thing!"), but apparently Coat of arms is sometimes referred to as such[7]. I intend to re-introduce this into the article – but I'll will wait pending input from others. What ya reckon? / Ezeu 19:35, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

S/he's right; there ain't such a thing. A crest is a very specific thing, and the word is very often misued to mean something it doesn't. Like so many others, the Elmbridge council could use a vocabulary lesson. Of course the wikipedia needs to cater to all, even the misinformed, not ignore misconceptions incompletely; which is why there are notices on crest and heraldry and this page to help people learn what "crest" actually means. Doops | talk 21:35, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I have edited the article accordingly. / Ezeu 21:53, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] unsourced?

Is this a joke? The article is a tiny little stub right now. It includes absolutely no obscure information; everything in it is common knowledge. I can gladly add references for the sake of "further reading" or suchlike; but it's impossible to cite sources for my latest rewrite since the source is me! Doops | talk 18:17, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Opening ¶

Hi. Here's the opening ¶ under the preferred version of User: Skull 'n' Femurs:

A coat of arms - properly called a Heraldic Achievement, or less formally Armorial Bearings or just Arms - is also often wrongly called a crest of arms. In European tradition it is a set of colourful symbols with origins in the designs used by mediaeval knights to make their armor and shield stand out in battle or tournaments and enable quick recognition.

The main problem with this is that it takes a question of terminology and makes it the centerpiece of the article. The article isn't about terminology (or at least it shouldn't be); it's about COATS OF ARMS. Therefore the first sentence should, like practically every other article, define it. The first ¶ should lay out the situation as clearly and legibly as possible. We have to remember the reader first and foremost.

Additionally, I do not see the need to work "achievement" into the first sentence. The 2nd ¶ already makes quite clear what a heraldic achievement is and when that phrase is and is not synonomous with "arms" and "coats of arms." Insofar as this is an issue, the article cannot help involving itself in terminology; and it is important that we helpe the reader to navigate that minefield. But again, simplicity and clarity should be our watchword.

Finally, let me repeat what I said earlier up this page — in your obsession, Skulls n' Femurs, with "armorial bearings" and "heraldic achievements" you're trying to become more 'correct than the experts'. That has two problems: as a matter of style, it makes the wikipedia look forbidding and uptight; as a matter of substance, it might leave the reader with the misapprehension that "arms" and "coat of arms" are somehow wrong, which they aren't. Doops | talk 23:22, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Oversweepingly broad statement

In some heraldic traditions (such as the Scottish) it is basically true that coats of Arms are individual possessions which can be passed down through more than one generation in the line of heirs (usually the eldest sons), but it is NOT true in other traditions (such as the English, where many cousins of the same surname can have identical coats of arms). The article page should reflect this. AnonMoos 20:22, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

No. both England and Scotland require differencing of arms for younger sons. Scotland's system is complicated and comprehensive, specifying several generations' worth of of changes involving borders, color changes, changes of lines to wavy/embattled/engrailed/etc. England's system is much simpler: there are specific charges which younger sons add to their arms; after a few generations the pile up of cadency marks (as they are called) becomes unbearable and the person applies for a fresh set of arms for his cadet branch (usually based on / related to his ancestral arms). But cousins should never have identical arms in either place. Doops | talk 21:25, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that happens not to be the case. The English system has a set of cadency marks (for the FIRST son as well as for other sons), which can be used to distinguish the arms of sons (as individuals) from those of their father (particularly when the father is still alive), if desired; and these cadency marks have been used on some occasions to differentiate between different branches of a family. But cadency marks are by no means obligatory, and patrilineal cousins quite frequently have the same set of arms. Furthermore, in the Polish system, minor nobility families with dozens of different surnames can all have exactly the same coat of arms. AnonMoos 17:19, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] quarterly

As I (mis)understand the history, the "coat of arms" is so called because it was painted or embroidered on a cloth tunic worn over metal armor to keep the sun off; this "coat" had the same design as the shield. The word coat is also used for the components of an impaled or quartered shield, and the article ought to mention this somewhere. —Tamfang 07:30, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] flexible standards

Someone seriously wrote that the "coats of arms" of France and Italy are more heraldic than that of the USA? —Tamfang 07:40, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Do you suggest it is otherwise? Is there an American heraldic standard? Kittybrewster 22:27, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that the US Great Seal has a blazonable shield with a supporter and the "coats of arms" of Italy and France resemble heraldry about as much as the jar of pens on my desk. —Tamfang 23:24, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

All three of them are about as heraldic as my pants, perhaps the Italian and Usonian more so than the French. —Nightstallion (?) 09:42, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Um, exactly where was this statement supposed to have been made? I looked at the last version of the article before your edit, and could find no comparison made between the arms of the US and those of France or Italy. What I saw was a statement that France and Italy had arms, even though they are no longer monarchies. --EncycloPetey 04:53, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

It said the ex-monarchies "retain" coats of arms, which is false of Italy and France (though true, more or less, of Hungary and Croatia); and that the USA Seal is "not an armorial achievement". The comparison is created by the juxtaposition. —Tamfang 05:11, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Since the two topics appeared in separate paragraphs, I expect that the statements were written at different times by different individuals, and were not intended to be juxtaposed. In any case, the new text dodges this problem. --EncycloPetey 09:34, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External link removal?

The external link at the bottom links to a program for Win95. Surely that's very old and should be removed? →bjornthegreat ^t|_c 12:52, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Helmets

Helmet#Sovereign - Kittybrewster 13:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Umm...Kitty...you'll have to be a bit more clear on the purpose of this edit. The link that you've pointed to is very Britannocentric in its explanation of heraldic helmets, but I cannot determine why you put it here.--Eva ^bd 15:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's practical to list the format in each country but an example is not a bad thing. Perhaps it would be best to add 'for example in the UK the coronets were' Alci12 16:32, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

A query was raised by a French User as to the appropriate helm for a Baronet. I was surprised it was not covered by en.wiki - it is now. - Kittybrewster 20:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coats of Arms and Fair Use

If I want to include the coat of arms of a family in an article in wikipedia, do I need to get the permission of the family? Does fair use apply? Anyways, in the US is ownership of really old coats of arms even recognized? nadav 05:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I would that that would fall in the guidelines of Fair Use if you are using the coat of arms to illustrate that family only.--Eva ^bd 14:26, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

A particular representation of a coat of arms may be under copyright; but if you re-draw the coat yourself, or use your own photograph of a public display, you're in the clear. —Tamfang 06:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Good point.--Eva ^bd 13:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC)