Talk:Clouds of Witnesses

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Where would I go to get a copy of this document? Is it published online? Is the title an allusion to the "cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1-2? Wesley 17:36 Sep 27, 2002 (UTC)

Yes, I think the "clouds" metaphor relates to NT imagery, as explained at length here in clarification of terminology. The document itself is at [1]. I guess I should add these as external links to the article. --Ed Poor

Thanks Ed, that's exactly what I was looking for. It also seems very appropriate to include those external links. I notice that aside from Peter and Paul, Eastern Orthodoxy doesn't appear to have been represented at the council. Should I feel left out? ;-) Wesley

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Thanks to 128.193.88.129 for improving the article. Although I am puzzled by stray characters you added to homosexuality: you added an extra C one time and an extra L another there. Or is someone else using the same computer?

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How about a list of the individuals the Church claims were present, such as the Religious and Communist leaders? MichaelD 22:35, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Mode of transmission

Can this fall under the Category:Channelled texts Andries 18:38, 4 June 2006 (UTC)?

Where does this text come from? Did rev. Moon hear spirits taling to him? Andries 18:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

One of the links contains this text, explaining the origin of the document:

• These spiritual testimonies were conveyed through two chosen individuals, one working in heaven and the other reporting to people on the earth. Dr. Sung Han Lee, who passed into the spirit world in 1997, is best known for his critique and counterproposal to Marxism-Leninism that was widely disseminated around the world during the Cold War era. A tireless teacher of God's truth, Dr. Lee educated countless atheists and believers of various religions. Young Soon Kim is graced with the gifts of spiritual hearing and spiritual sight. While in the Spirit she is able to record Dr. Lee's narrative for earthly people to read.[2]

It's simple. -Will Beback 02:04, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Apparently Dr. Lee subsequently held a seminar for the dead former U.S. Presidents. After attending lectures, all 36, even the taciturn Coolidge, made enthusiatic statements on behalf of the True Parents, followed by Richard M. Nixon leading them in a cheer.[3] Here is a list of some documents transmitted from Dr. Lee after his death.[4] -Will Beback 05:37, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. I will edit in. Dr. Young Soon Kim was the UC first missionary to the USA and I think deserves her own article. I found some information about here in the book making of a moonie that I borrowed from the university library. Andries 08:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

No, you're thinking of Miss Young Oon Kim - one letter is different! Miss Kim never married, for reasons never made clear to me. She's not Dr. Lee's earthly "recorder" (or Medium). Sorry, but all these Korean names can be confusing. Fully 45% of all Koreans are named Kim, Pak or Lee. --Uncle Ed 17:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

With regards to the missing context, it is not clear to me what the status of the channeled text is in the Unification Church. Does the UC consider it scripture, like the Divine Principle? The reason for raising this issue is my experience in the Sathya Sai Baba movement that only very few channeled texts were accepted as authentic. Others were regarded as dubious. Of course the fact that the document is mentioned on the UC website means that it is probably considered authentic. Andries 15:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

In this January 13, 2002 sermon, Rev. Moon references the event.

• Have you read the message from the 120 Christians in the Spirit World? They testify to me. ...Yet Jesus is testifying that you must follow me.[5]

This page reports on a November 4, 2002 "Ambassadors for Peace" meeting (one of a dozen in different cities). The high point of the meeting was a reading of the document followed by endorsements from those present. This page explaining the text, [6], was "Prepared by the FFWPU..." This page, [7], says that the document was published in the Washington Times, probably as an advertisement. Given its endorsement by Rev. Moon and its reading at official events, this document appears to have been canonical, at least in 2002. The importance and authenticity of religious scriptures may wax or wane. However, unless the reporting is specifically renounced by the FFWPU, I think we should consider it to be approved. -Will Beback 23:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Another bit of research (might as well toss it in since I found it). Rev. Dr. Chung Hwan Kwak, IIFWP Chairman, Tokyo, Japan, June 28, 2005.

• God and the spirit world are behind this initiative.[8]

Though oblique, I think that is a reference to this and similar documents. -Will Beback 23:22, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Not to belabor it, but here is the best link of all: Rev. Moon talking about the document by name.[9]. -Will Beback 23:29, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Not exactly sure what qualifes as "scripture" in the Unification Church. We're so ecumenical that we spent 80% to 90% of our budget working with other churches and respect their scriptures (see also Andrew Wilson's World Scripture project).

At one point Father Moon said something like the three main books of our church are Divine Principle, Unification Thought and Communism: a Critique and Counterprosal. He wrote most of the first, although the canonical text was authored by President Hyo Won Eu. Dr. Lee wrote Unification Thought in close consultation with Father Moon, and there's some good-natured finger-pointing between the two as to who should get the author credit. Dr. Lee wrote the last one also.

In recent years, we started using certain texts for Hoon Dok Hoi (pronounced Hoon Do Kay), and some of Dr. Lee's spirit world messages have been among these. But does this make them "scripture"? Ah, how poorly we understand our own movement! --Uncle Ed 17:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Insane

This document proves it. Moon is simply insane. Meglomania is a terrible thing. The guy is just a Korean businessman with delusions of grandeur. It would be funny if the Moonies didn't really believe it.