Talk:Close-mid back unrounded vowel

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[edit] On Estonian õ

I'm afraid the sound sample sounds nothing like the vowel, at least in Estonian. - 217.159.163.237 12:14, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Estonian õ is a central vowel, this one here a back vowel. Nonetheless, no central vowel linked in the graph sounds similar to Estonian õ. And, errraneously, Estonian wiki also uses symbol [ɤ] for letter õ. --Constanz - Talk 10:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

It appears to be a convention in Estonian linguistics to use [ɤ] for the Estonian mid-central "õ" sound, contrary to the IPA standard - apparently because there isn't any other appropriate symbol for the sound. This should be checked upon. PeepP 21:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Appearantly, these conventions have mislead linguists of other nations: [Estonian] does not allow mid back unrounded [ ] in non-initial syllables..[1] thus they do think õ is [ɤ].--Constanz - Talk 07:48, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

If Estonian <õ> really is a mid central unrounded vowel rather than a mid back unrounded vowel, then its symbol ought to be [ɘ] rather than [ɤ]. Nevertheless it is extremely common for linguists focusing on a particular language to use conventional symbols in away not entirely consistent with their canonical IPA values. Russian <ы> is customarily transcribed as [ɨ] although it's far enough back to be [ɯ]. The Eastern American English "thought" vowel is customarily transcribed as [ɔ] even though it's low enough to be [ɒ]. Ideal IPA practice is quite different from what real-life linguists actually do, and always has been. (I don't think I've ever seen [ɘ] used in any phonology or phonetics article I've ever read, only in IPA charts.) User:Angr 19:57, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, does anyone have the Finno-Ugric Transcription for Estonian? That system seems to have more vowel contrasts than IPA. On the other hand I can confirm hearing <õ> as high up as [ɯ] in some cases, though I'd buy the [ɘ] for unstressed positions. I know a couple Turks who, in describing their <ı> sound have said that it sounds a lot like the Estonian <õ> to their ears. In a way that confirms my own experiences of being taught the sound by an Estonian. When I actually produced a [ɤ] she didn't feel like it was high enough, though that may have been a result of it being in recitation form, though it certainly was [ɯ] initially (tonguetwister, õueaiamaa jõeääres 'apple orchard on the river shore'). The article should maybe be edited to say that Estonian is commonly said to have [ɤ], though this is not true in all positions and it's more of a convention?

What the article on Estonian says sounds quite reasonable to me: "Another feature that sets Estonian apart from most languages is the vowel õ ([ɤ]), a close-mid near-back unrounded vowel, which is farther back than the schwa ([ə]), but fronter than [o]." --Ryan 16:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Finno-Ugric Transcription for estonian õ is e with a curve below the letter, meaning a mid-vowel e. UPT [e] itself is closer to IPA [ɛ].Constanz - Talk 10:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)