Talk:Climate of Mars

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[edit] Well the Censors Finally Succeeded in Killing off the Martian global warming Page

Yesterday King of Hearts posted the results of the AfD poll, he stated: "This article was nominated for deletion on 18 February 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus."

Less than an hour later Sbandrews arbitrarily killed the article with the single word "redirect" as the only comment. The page is now reduced to a couple of paragraphs at the bottom of the Climate of Mars page where it will never be found or read. When the AfD was "no consensus" how do they have the right to unilaterally destroy hundreds of hours of work and go against the votes???

The documented history of Censorship (23 February 2007):

  1. (diff) (hist) . . Martian global warming‎; 21:37 . . (+33) . . Sbandrews (Talk | contribs) (redirect)
  2. (diff) (hist) . . Talk:Martian global warming‎; 20:46 . . (+96) . . King of Hearts (Talk | contribs) (Article survived AfD with no consensus)

-- Rameses 05:08, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

This effective killing of the article was predicted by many who protested against this blatant censorship in Wikipedia over the past month. This censorship is being carried out by a group (including some Adminstrators) with a definite POV and agenda. Read the predictions and the fight against censorship here: Talk:Martian global warming.
Unless we stand up and fight for a fair NPOV (Neutral Point of View) and against this insidious censorship, Wikipedia will gradually become controlled by the Tyranny of the most actively vocal and devious Special Interest Groups (SIG). I am willing to fight because I believe Wikipedia is worth fighting for. Who else is willing to take the abuse, which we will inevitably incur from the SIG's, and start a struggle against censorship of Wikipedia? -- Rameses 05:22, 24 February 2007 (UTC)


Actually I included *all* of the material from the MGW page here, about half of which had just been copied from my draft for this page anyway, and which I would have deleted earlier from the MGW page had it not been for the AfD. The result of the AfD was a clear consensus for merge, as such my actions were not arbitrary, though maybe bold. Kind regards sbandrews 09:07, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
You can see what the real consensus was at: Talk:Martian global warming. For your convenience I'll reprint it again here: King of Hearts posted the results of the AfD poll, he stated: "This article was nominated for deletion on 18 February 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus."
Given this clearly posted result, your action to eliminate the article within an hour (and before most people would have had a chance to read what the real result was) cannot be described as "bold" - the description which comes to mind is "sneaky". If you genuinely did not mean to censor hundreds of hours of effort then I suggest that you return the Martian global warming page. Actions speak louder than words - we will wait to see what you do. -- Rameses 15:22, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Before the Talk:Martian global warming page gets deleted, I have copied below the relevant discussion about censorship: -- Rameses 15:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

ok, first, the Martian global warming page is not going to be deleted, that can only happen as the result of an AfD and we've just had that, so no need to worry. Next, it seems that you have asked King of Hearts for advice - I think that was a good idea, I will wait for his response sbandrews 15:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Why do you need to interfere? The article was not marked for merging, yet you took it upon yourself to do it anyway. There is no need to wait on a response retrospectively, the response is there already: Leave it alone. If you had some integrity you'd go back and restore it having realised your error. Mixino1 05:49, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
you need to check your facts, I made no changes to the page after King of hearts restored it, sbandrews 12:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

National Geographic are reporting on this issue now: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html Mixino1 00:14, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Censorship of Wikipedia by Special Interest Groups

I agree with Oren0, he is writing about Martian warming. There appears to be evidence of warming occurring on other planets and this is certainly valid information to reference in this article as it points to a likely possible cause - the Sun. I have checked on the Global Warming article and it appears that William M. Connolley is colluding with others in a concerted effort to revert all changes which reflect any uncertainty regarding the fact of man made global warming. This kind of hijacking of Wikipedia will only discredit it as a source of unbiased, balanced information. -- Censorship Bias 02:53, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree. Wikipedia is being hijacked by special interest groups. Mixino1 16:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I also agree, contentious issues, such as Global Warming, have been hijacked by vocal biased groups. We need to find a solution to stop this form of censorship. We should remember that scientists had a consensus view based on Newtonian Physics - until Einstein destroyed the consensus with his Theories of Relativity. I also remember the scientific consensus view, among nutritionists and doctors, during the 70's and 80's was that we should all start eating hydrogenated margarine (trans-fats) to prevent heart disease. Now it has been proven that the worst thing for heart disease is trans-fats (hydrogenated margarines). Scientific consensus is not the dependable certainty that it is promoted as being. -- Rameses 18:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Raymond Arritt is now proposing this article be merged with the Mars article. I am sickened by this constant manipulation of Wikipedia. Mixino1 01:33, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Here's proof of Wikifriends, with an axe to grind on climate change, taking it out of open discussion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:William_M._Connolley

I quote:

"SPM

Can we give Summary for policymakers a decent burial? Or even an indecent one? Is there a protocol to follow, or can I just move the (very small amount of) useful information in the article somewhere else? It's been tagged for merger several months now. Raymond Arritt 04:23, 3 January 2007 (UTC) Don't forget what links to it... [6] Gack. Is there no automagic way of taking care of such things? Raymond Arritt 22:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC) Well if you replaced it with a redirect to IPCC it would be transparent. I quite like the existence of a separate SPM page, myself William M. Connolley 22:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)'"

What have you got against talking in the open? Mixino1 01:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Now they have gutted the article completely - almost everything has been deleted. This is obviously the prelude to deleting it altogether or "merging" it into Mars. This shows how far the Global warming pushers will go to hide any evidence that GW may be due to the obvious cause of the highest level of solar activity in 1,000 years (and probably in the last 8,000 years - according to the Max Planck Institute in Germany, See: The truth about global warming - it's the Sun that's to blame.). I expect to see this article and this discussion disappear soon as a result of blatant censorship. -- Rameses 18:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair representation in this article

At best, the consensus to move the Martian global warming page here was a weak one. I believe that the intent of those of us who voted for it was that Martian global warming would get fair play in this article, which it doesn't have at this point. Warming should at least be mentioned in the opening paragraph. Oren0 18:30, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

a good point - i added a bit, feel free to add more, regards sbandrews 18:39, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Martial global warming merge discussion

A merge of Martian global warming into Mars was proposed, then pre-empted by an AfD proposal. In the AfD, a plurality of responses (15 out of 31) favored merging Martian global warming into another article while most of the rest proposed deletion. Only four respondents recommended keeping Martian global warming as a separate article. Thus, am reopening the merge discussion following sentiments expressed in the AfD. Please give your comments here. Raymond Arritt 02:22, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

More blatant misuse of power over all global warming topics: What is the point of even having this discussion when William M. Connolley has already arbitrarily merged the articles without even pretending he cared what the rest of us think??? It is high time this Administrator was scrutinized - he should have his Administrator status revoked. -- Rameses 03:33, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Merge. The Martian global warming page is as it stands WP:OR - the subject of the local climate variation, and the melting of one pole is interesting though, and should be provided within the correct context of Climate of Mars or Mars. --Kim D. Petersen 08:50, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
merge - as KDP, as previous discussion William M. Connolley 10:09, 25 February 2007 (UTC) (and do not merge into GW as this has nothing to do with GW William M. Connolley 20:22, 25 February 2007 (UTC))
Do not merge with Climate on Mars, rather merge with global warming. The article is not so much about describing the climate of Mars as a static condition, but more about the dynamic process of a change in the planet's climate which is currently being observed. So it would be much more appropriate to merge it into climate change or global warming. Kgs 18:38, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Do not merge with Climate on Mars, rather merge with global warming. The article is about the dynamic process of a warming climate change which is currently being observed. So it would be much more appropriate to merge it into global warming. -- Rameses 20:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
We can always merge with both. If you think this material deserves to be on global warming, just go ahead and put it there. Lunokhod 00:18, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
No. Linking this material to global warming on Earth constitutes original research. Raymond Arritt 00:47, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
That's not true. You can dispute the reliability of [1] but it clearly doesn't violate WP:NOR. Oren0 02:28, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
It violates WP:RS and hence WP:NOR. --Stephan Schulz 19:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
You don't have to link it to Earths global warming. Global warming would get two subcategories: Global warming on Earth and global warming on Mars. Kgs 08:19, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Merge to Climate of Mars, and give fair representation to Martian warming in that article. Oren0 21:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Merge: This article can not be expanded as is, as there are no reputatable sources that are directly related to this subject. It is original research WP:NOR, it is non-notable WP:Notability, and the title of the topic is misleading, as it could be confused with global warming on Earth. Lunokhod 22:02, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Merge: Title is erroneous (there is no reliable source stating that the change on Mars is global), and Climate of Mars provides necessary context. Raymond Arritt 22:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Merge: Merge with Climate of Mars. Changes on Mars will receive the proper attention and context there. Mishlai 18:57, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Merge to Climate of Mars (or just delete it, there was not much useful context anyways). --Stephan Schulz 19:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Merge with both Global warming and with Climate of Mars. It is of real interest to readers of both articles. -- Persianne 21:16, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree - Merge with both Global warming and with Climate of Mars. -- Brittainia 22:04, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Comment: Edit histories for User:Persianne and User:Brittainia show that they edit on similar topics and use remarkably similar wording in their edit summaries. Raymond Arritt 22:15, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
comment
  1. There are very many 'dynamical processes of change' in the climate of Mars - and that is why I started this page during the AfD. In fact Mars has most if the processes of change that the earth does, some stronger, some weaker, and a few more thrown in for good measure, not least the dust storms and one third of the atmosphere condensing twice a year, and the ecentricity of the orbit and the lack of the stabilising effect of a large moon... etc etc.
  2. There is no paper, to my knowledge, peer reviewed or otherwise that states that global warming is occuring on Mars.
  3. There has been observed melting of the CO2 ice on the south polar cap - we have about 3 martian years of data, at best wildly incomplete in breadth, on which to make theories as to what is happening there. In short, we don't know what is happening there.
  4. The place of presentation of this information on wikipedia is perhaps as important as the content of the final article. The name given to the page that contains it should not be a loaded phrase, implying one conclusion or the other. It should be neutral - this is the most important criterion in the current decision process. The pages Global Warming, Martian Global Warming, Global Warming on Mars etc etc all fail the *neutrality test*. sbandrews 22:25, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup tag?

Are we of the opinion that this article still needs cleanup? It seems reasonable enough to me. If so, please say which parts you believe need to be fixed. Oren0 07:04, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good article

Jakosky, B.M. & Haberle, R.M. "Year-to-year instability of the Mars Polar Cap" J.Geophys Res, 95, 1359-1365 (1990) If anyone with access to this article (I don't have) wants to paraphrase the reasons they give for the instability it would make a nice conclusion to this page, regards sbandrews 22:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Online back issues of JGR go only to 1994, so it means a trip to the library. Something this old may have been superseded in the meantime. Raymond Arritt 22:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
one would have hoped so, but it is the reference that Colaprete et al rely on, who in turn are relied upon by Sigurdsson, who in turn is relied upon by.... :) sbandrews 22:41, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I'll look it up tomorrow during my lunch break. --Jespley 04:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, here are some relevant points based on my quick read through. They basically calculated energy balance (Sun's energy in vs. heat radiated away by Mars) with a variable sized polar cap and numerically integrated the heat conduction throughout the Martian orbital cycle. They assumed a constant solar luminosity. They found that the amount of CO2 ice depended on the previous year's place in the cycle as the system alternated between a large amount of ice and a small amount with small changes in the atmospheric conditions causing a large amount of variations. It's my impression that results like this have been largely superceded by (and reinforced) by the more sosphicated GCM models like Colaprete et al. 2005. --Jespley 18:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Nice, do they speculate on the fundamental frequencies of the changes, how many years of ice deposition followed by how many of melting - and if so where are we now on the cycle - and many thanks :), kind regards, sbandrews 18:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I guess I'm asking is it like the ice ages on earth - is there some kind of pattern under a lot of noise, sbandrews 18:58, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
They don't suggest a well behaved cycle. Let me quote (pg. 1364): "What we have, then, is a system where each residual polar cap has two possible states, where either cap can jump from one state to the other, and where relatively small pertubations within the climate system can trigger a jump from one state to the other or back again. These pertubations can take the form of a small (perhaps 5%) increase in the CO2 frost sublimation rate dust dust loading in the atmosphere or on the surface or an increase in the surface albedo due to the addition of clean water frost onto the residual surface." It reminds me of discussions regarding feedback loops in the Earth's climate change. Thanks for trying to synthesize this material. --Jespley 19:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
While we're at, here are my very rough notes on the Head et al., Science, 2003 article which is key to this discussion. Interested parties who have access to this article should read it. In the meantime, here are my notes. Hopefully someone with more time can read the article themselves or they can put my notes into a coherent form.

Head, Science, 2003

  • find that high obliquity (>30degrees) causes the polar caps to melt more, increasing the humidity, which increases the stability of ice at low latitudes. Thus more ice condenses therefore creating an "ice age" (i.e. ice across the ~ equatorial regions). This ice then sublimates during non-ice ages leaving variegated terrain at lower latitudes.
  • this is confirmed by geologic (i.e. surface roughness and topographic concavity),
  • prior to 300k years, there was high obliquity and hence an "ice age"
  • <300k years, Mars had a steady obliquity of ~25degrees so we are in an "interglacial" period where "[w]ater ice at mid mid-latitudes has been slowly and steadily removed from this reservoir by diffusion, sublimation, and atmospheric transport processes; it was deposited in the polar regions, creating the uppermost layers in the polar cap, and also resulting in the degradation of the surface mantle in the 30°–60° latitude bands"

--Jespley 19:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

ty - will give it a look - Looking up Head et al. I found this online paper,|Climate Simulations of Recent Climate Changes On Mars, not looked at it yet, regards, sbandrews 12:18, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good article candidate

I'm thinking of putting Climate of Mars forward for GAC - any comments, suggestions for improvements etc? sbandrews (t) 20:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. The article is lacking a lot about the polar ice caps (I just plugged in some from the Mars page), temperature structure of the atmosphere, and composition of the atomosphere. Some of that should only be in-depth on Atmosphere of Mars, but it should at least be mentioned here. --zandperl 00:28, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
how does the temperature structure of the atmosphere affect the climate? sbandrews (t) 00:57, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I did a google search to find the diffeence in temperature on Mars if it didn't have a CO2 atmosphere - i.e. what contribution does the CO2 greenhouse make - only found hundreds of terraforming hits - could someone help with a reference for any of this? regards sbandrews (t) 15:32, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Polar Caps

I just threw in some content from the Mars page into the section on polar caps. It needs cleaning up and expanding - we shouldn't have more on the general Mars page about this than on the climate-specific page. --zandperl 00:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

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