Talk:Cleveland, Ohio

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Archives Archive 1

Contents 1 Thank you!! 2 Cleveland Portal 3 Sports table 4 Nicknames - Mistake on the Lake 5 Technology 6 Nickname Mistake by the Lake 7 Userbox 8 Too Heavy an Emphasis on CWRU? 9 World City 10 Recent neighborhoods addition 11 Good article nomination 12 Trimming 13 Western Reserve 14 Permission ? 15 Survey on proposal to make U.S. city naming guidelines consistent with others countries 16 Seventh most dangerous city 17 Cleveland's loan default 1978 - not the first large city in USA to do this 18 Cleveland revitalization investigation 19 Picture caption needing revision 20 Opening 21 Too Much Spin 22 Population 23 Sister cities?

[edit] Thank you!!

I'd like to extend my thanks and appreciation to EurekaLott, Beirne, Clevelander, and all others who have contributed to this article to get it to featured status. For posterity's sake, here's the link to the article as it looked at the time it was promoted to a featured article. If you had seen where this article was before peer review, you know what an accomplishment it was to get it up to featured status in less than a month; thank you to all, and fantastic job! PacknCanes | say something! 12:12, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I too would like to say a big thanks for those contributing to my hometown article. Sidar 02:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleveland Portal

Calling all fellow Clevelanders! Be sure to regularly contribute and/or expand the new Cleveland portal now online! -- Clevelander 20:47, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sports table

How do you guys feel about the giant table of sports teams that was recently added to the article? I don't know if it adds anything meaningful. Much of it is a duplication of material covered in the text, and it adds more bulk to an already large article. Is there a good reason to keep it around? - EurekaLott 02:32, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I scaled it down and cleaned it up a bit to match that of the Chicago one. I would support keeping it because it stays consistent with other big city articles on Wikipedia. It is a bit bulky, though. - Clevelander 02:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

This version is a definite improvement over the initial table, but I still doubt that it's needed. Allow me to explain my thoughts for each of the table's columns: name, league, and venue are adequately addressed in the text. Listing the sport is redundant when the league name makes that perfectly clear, the year founded is something I'd expect to find on the individual team articles, and including the logo serves no clear purpose. Consistency is a noble goal, but in this case, I think keeping the article size under control is more important. - EurekaLott 07:27, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to delete the Cleveland Rockers part of this table...they are no longer around. Someone may want to edit the page to show that the Rockers did exist at one time, though. BigMar992 20:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I added a short line about the Rockers. BigMar992 20:39, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nicknames - Mistake on the Lake

Speaking of other nicknames, as a native Clevelander, I've never heard "The Heart of New Connecticut." Is this nickname verifiable? If so, from what source did it come? The only thing a google search of the term turned up was the title of this book: Avery, Elroy McKendree. A History of Cleveland and Its Environs: the Heart of New Connecticut. (Chicago: Lewis Publishing Co. 1918.) This was the only reference to the nickname, and it barely filled two search pages. I hardly think that it merits inclusion in this article, and I'm going to remove it for that reason. If someone can find substantial evidence that it's widely known and/or used, please feel free to put it back in, with an appropriate citation. On a related note, I think that "The North Coast" is fairly well known; it's frequently used in the names of area businesses, at least in their advertisements.

I've put in the nicknames section a brief mention of "Mistake on the Lake." This has been reverted and I think I'll revert it back (without starting a revert war, I hope). In brief, I think Mistake on the Lake is a much better known nickname than "America's North Coast" or more than half the other nicknames listed in that section. I don't think that Wikipedia is supposed to censor reasonable reports of well known sayings, nor is it supposed to report only a sympathetic point of view - rather it's supposed to be a neutral point of view. "Mistake ..." as a well known nickname is a fact, that I'm sure all Clevelanders have heard of and know how to deal with.

BTW, I spent part of my childhood growing up in Wadsworth and Alliance, and watching Jim Brown and Leroy Kelly. I like "Greater North East Ohioland" (I don't think this nickname made it!) Go Browns!

Hmm, well, you may have something there. Although I am senstive to that particular name, I believe that yes, Wikipedia must have a neutral point of view. It shall stay. -- Clevelander 03:23, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I should have read the entire article. M on the L is already mentioned lower down in the article. I guess I just have an aversion to all those promotional nicknames that most cities have - and was looking for some balance. I'll let others judge how the overall balance now stands and make the right edit. Smallbones 06:15, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

The MotL nickname definitely needs to remain in the article, but since it isn't a presently used nickname, perhaps it is best left in the "history" section, rather than at the top. I'd toss some of the other nicks down in history as well, including "Best Location in the Nation", which was probably last commonly used at the same time as MotL. Avogadro 14:26, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I removed both nicknames "Best Location in the Nation" and "Mistake on the Lake" from the introduction section. They now can be found in the history section. -- Clevelander 12:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

In the interest of making the article seem less like a promotional piece, I removed a couple of the less commonly used nicknames. I also deleted a recently-added paragraph from the history section because it read more like a newspaper editorial than an encyclopedia article. Please feel free to re-insert it, if you can manage to remove its POV statements. - EurekaLott 07:56, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I noticed that you removed the background reference I added on the origin of the "best location in the nation" slogan. Did you find it to be inaccurate? IIRC the page at the external link I provided is credible. (It's still extant in the "History of Cleveland, Ohio" entry.) Mapsax 19:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I only took it out because it was in both places, and because the Cleveland article is already a bit larger than it should be. I don't doubt its credibility - it's just that we can only afford so much detail in the main article. Do you feel it needs to be included? - EurekaLott 20:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

No, as long as it remains somewhere :) Mapsax 21:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC) [Edited:] Actually, isn't the History section mostly redundant to the separate article? Would it be a good idea just to eliminate the History section and replace it with a link to the separate article? Mapsax 19:01, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Summary style. Generally, there should be a summary of the main article rather than simply a link. older ≠ wiser 19:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Technology

I made some small changes to the technology information. I clarified a little of the text on the OneCleveland-Intel arrangement and I added a bit about current delays. I did that (and I am writing this) as part of a class project that involves learning about Wiki's. Please give my work a careful look and update it as the Digital Communities project (hopefully) goes forward. I don't think anything I did was controversial (or even substantial), but I wanted to take the time to explain it. CyberGroup 07:59, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nickname Mistake by the Lake

User:Joececchini has been adding unsourced nicknames to city articles. A reliable source must be referenced for this nickname before it can be allowed back in the article. -- Dalbury^(Talk) 09:45, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Just look in any Pittsburgh-area newspaper, and it sometimes refers to Cleveland as the "Mistake By The Lake" when the Steelers and Browns play each other. Clevelanders also have used this as a form of self-depreciation, just as us Pittsburghers have called the Steel City a dirty Steel town, or "blue-collar idiots". I found an article on the term "mistake by the lake" on CBS News.com. This is definately not vandalism. Jgera5 01:14, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Nobody is claiming your edits were vandalism. It's just that the article already covers the nickname in more detail in the history section, and there's no need to add bloat by duplicating information. See the talk a couple sections up from this for some older discussion. - EurekaLott 01:28, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, considering I'm from Pittsburgh, I would've likely got assumptions that it was vandalism, that's all. I didn't know it was already covered. Jgera5 01:46, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Userbox

This user lives in or hails from Cleveland or Greater Cleveland.

There is a user box available for your use shown at right.

Add the following to your user page if you'd like to:

{{user Cleveland, Ohio}} 

[edit] Too Heavy an Emphasis on CWRU?

Anybody else feel that the artilce goes too in-depth about Case Western? I feel that the information included there goes beyond the scope of an article that is supposed to be about Cleveland. The superfluous information (i.e. stuff about the new president and his mission) can easily be found out by clicking on the link to the CWRU page. I will edit this informaiton out if other agree with me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hutchk26 (talk • contribs) .

I pruned the section and left a note for the user who added it. - EurekaLott 07:56, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] World City

Has anyone come across the world city or global city article? It mentions Cleveland as a "potential city" of earning world-class city status. Does anyone think this should be mentioned in the Cleveland city article? For an example, check out the article on Kansas City, MO...[second paragraph] OhioDesi 00:50, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it would be appropriate to mention it. The Global city article does mention Cleveland, but doesn't rank it very highly. The Globalization and World Cities Study Group refers to the city as a minor regional-global center. I'm reverting the addition. - EurekaLott 13:46, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent neighborhoods addition

A few days ago, an anon added this:

Several inner-city neighborhoods have begun to gentrify in recent years, particularly on the city's west side, with areas such as Ohio City, Tremont, Detroit-Shoreway and Clifton-Edgewater attracting increasing numbers of artists, gays, and young professionals. A live-work zoning overlay for the city's near east side, meanwhile, has facilitated the transformation of old industrial buildings into loft spaces for artists and professionals.

Should we include it? Is there a source for this information? -- Clevelander 01:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The information is accurate. I replaced the deleted section and added a couple references. In the future, please do a little research before reverting reasonable additions. - EurekaLott 03:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good article nomination

I've nominated the Cleveland article along with the History of Cleveland, Ohio article for Good Article status. -- Clevelander 13:29, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the Wikipedia:Good article nomination, as the Good article feature is meant to "identify good content, which may have the potential to become featured after some development" - and this is already featured. Poulsen 18:30, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I understand. I should have read over that part before nominating it. -- Clevelander 19:46, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trimming

Because the article was getting on the chunky side again, I deleted three tables that duplicated the article's prose. I removed the list of sister cities, which is partially covered in the text and completely at Sister Cities of Cleveland, Ohio; the sports team table, which presented almost zero new information; and the table of neighboring suburbs, which in addition to duplicating the narrative, awkwardly attempted to classify every community in a single cardinal direction. - EurekaLott 01:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Western Reserve

I just added "historic" in front of the description of Cleveland being in what was the Western Reserve, but I started wondering why the WR is mentioned in the intro at all. It's not used to describe the region today, and it's already mentioned in the history section. Because of its low importance, that should be sufficient. What do you think? Confiteordeo 06:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

That's fine. -- Clevelander 11:23, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Since no one else has weighed in on this, I removed the reference and cleaned up the sentence. Confiteordeo 22:19, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Permission ?

Did anyone have a problem or any objection with me inserting and adding photo in the article later on provided it is formatted nicely
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Berniethomas68 01:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Image:Cuyahoga County - Cleveland - Ohio.jpg

Uh, yeah. The photo is a copyright violation. It should probably be deleted. - EurekaLott 01:45, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey on proposal to make U.S. city naming guidelines consistent with others countries

There is a survey in progress at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements) to determine if there is consensus on a proposed change to the U.S. city naming conventions to be consistent with other countries, in particular Canada.

This proposal would allow for this article to be located at Cleveland instead of Cleveland, Ohio, bringing articles for American cities into line with articles for cities such as Paris and Toronto.--DaveOinSF 16:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

However the proposal would allow U.S. cities to be inconsistent with the vast majority of other U.S. cities and towns, which (with a few exceptions) all use the "city, state" convention. -Will Beback 23:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Seventh most dangerous city

This isn't what the AP report says. It's actually a ranking of the safest cities, and Cleveland ranks 365 out of 371. The list isn't even all-inclusive (it doesn't include New Orleans, for example,) since the report says that it's only based on cities that submitted crime data. Also, I don't think it's meaningful to compare Cleveland with cities with populations under 100,000. For the moment, I'm going to remove this info from the article, but if someone can come up with a good reason for its staying, please say something on this page and put it back in. Confiteordeo 10:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi please provide links for this to make it accessible. Lakers 01:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

United_States_cities_by_crime_rate - ranked 9 with homicide rate of 23.8 per 100,000 people.
Here's compared to national crime rate.
What AP says is based on the FBI report and it includes all towns, regardless of population - probably for mere amusement and nothing else. For more meaningful information, check the first link above, as it contains FBI's data the AP report was based on.
The article is nice for a tourist's booklet. Do include a section about crime in Cleveland, OH. Rosier 06:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleveland's loan default 1978 - not the first large city in USA to do this

I would like to take polite exception to the current statement in the Cleveland history to the effect that Cleveland was the first large city in the USA to default on its loans. I know for a fact that New York City defaulted on its loans in 1974, and as a result was forced to lay off over 30,000 city employees. I lived on Long Island at the time, having just bought a home there at the time of the default. The lingering effects of the default and resulting layoffs cast a pall on the real estate market on Long Island that lasted for over 4 years.

David P Norby, Ph.D. david.norby@abbott.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.36.62.140 (talk) 23:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

• New York City didn't actually default on its obligations, though it came very close (the details are here). The city needed substantial federal and state help, but the bonds and loans were paid as due. Cleveland wasn't the first large city to default in any case - I believe that there were other instances during the Depression - but it was the only such time that it happened over to such a large city over a number of decades. --DMG413 23:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleveland revitalization investigation

Hey everybody. I'm the student of Moscow State University (Department of foreign countries), Russia, and i'm on my graduation work at present. This sience work is dedicated to american cities revitalization and redevelopment. Also it is tightly connected with Cleveland. The main target is to learn the ways of revitalization in Cleveland, Oakland, Pittsburgh etc.

So, dear Clevelander or someone who interests in it, could you please describe me the way of redevelopment in your city? The main point for me is to know all about measurement that were made. When exactly did it begin? What were the steps to revitalize the city? Was the downtown take down and rebuild? Were the citizens settled apart? I'll appreciate very much for any detailed information.

Any kind of information would be very valuable for me! Thank you. Simon Freydlin Freydlins 18:45, 24 February 2007 (UTC) P.S. Feel free to write me on this theme: boardpizza@mail.ru And please forgive me for my poor english.

There is an excellent forum at urbanohio.com that you may want to check out. That's probably the best place for your question, since this talk page is supposed to be for discussion about the Cleveland Wikipedia article. Good luck with your research! Confiteordeo 20:52, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, very much, Confiteordeo! That could be a great source for me. Freydlins 00:40, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

But there is a kind of problem with registering and entering this forum... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Freydlins (talk • contribs) 00:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Picture caption needing revision

Regarding this picture: The bridge in the right foreground is a vertical lift bridge; that (or those) those in the left midground also seem to be of the same type; and there appear to be three high-level bridges in the background, some kind of girder bridge, a concrete arch bridge, and a cantilever bridge. This level of detail is not needed in the caption, but if a detailed description is given, it should be correct. Kablammo 02:13, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Opening

Should the first sentence not state that Cleveland is a city? It's not even mentioned in the first paragraph.24.79.73.50 03:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Too Much Spin

Cleveland as a city has collapsed from a population of 914,000 in 1950 to less than half that today (c454,000). The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is not enough to stem the decline. This type of overly-positive spin for places like Cleveland and Pittsburgh aren't going to help. Only changing fundamentals, like reducing the costs of doing business, reducing the crime rate, etc. will have a positive effect. Fake spin doesn't work, as the latest census numbers show.68.219.235.37 19:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Population

Population claims make no sense. Is it the largest or the 2nd largest city in Ohio? http://www.city-data.com/us-cities/The-Midwest/Cleveland-Population-Profile.html mentions the 2003 data as 461,324 and national ranking as #40. It is likely that the population and ranking have declined further.--70.229.212.172 23:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sister cities?

From the article: "Its (Cleveland's) 20 sister cities include Holon, Israel; Volgograd, Russia; Bratislava, Slovakia; Ljubljana, Slovenia; Miskolc, Hungary; Bangalore, India; Alexandria, Egypt; and most recently Fier, Albania." Does that seem wrong to anyone else here? Not taking into account that it doesn't even add up to 20? Bcdefg123 19:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)