Talk:Clerical celibacy

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This page is within the scope of WikiProject Oriental Orthodoxy, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on Oriental Orthodoxy on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)

It may be the case that not all Christian churches prohibit sex outside of marriage, but isn't it true of all churches with clerical celibacy rules? Maybe I can be persuaded otherwise, but for now I am inclined to think so, and that is the reason for my recent edit. Michael Hardy 00:10, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

If the reasons for clerical celibacy in the Catholic Church are reworked to be separately presented as 1. theological 2. practical and 3. historical, then this entry will gain wholesome NPOV balance. Wetman 03:06, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC).

As I understand it, the reasons for clerical celibacy within the church initally had to do more with the practical concerns than any spirtual concerns when first enacted. Such as questions of inheritance and property.

JesseG 05:09, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps some sociological note be wise. Just think about the consequences for heritage and accumulation of wealth.

Another note, bishops at least were often chosen from among the monastics, who typically would have already taken vows of celibacy and many times vows of poverty as well. In these cases, they wouldn't be accumulating any great amounts of wealth, but would not have biological progeny either. Wesley 16:01, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Buddhist monks 2 Vow of celibacy? 3 ELCA/ELCIC 4 Mormonism 5 Early History 6 Celibacy in the RC church

[edit] Buddhist monks

Aren't Buddhist monks celibate?

That's already noted in the first paragraph. --Preost 00:32, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)

Not really, many, including the Dalai Lama are acually asexual as opposed to celibate, because they lack the normal desires. True celibates, like most Catholic priests, have these desires underneath but are repressing them.

Yeah right. I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Buddhism has a long tradition of celibacy starting with the Buddha. If you want to bash Catholics then you have to include the Dalai Lama. One previous Dalai Lama had real problems remaining celibate. In fact he didn't even try. Child abuse in Buddhist monasteries in not at all unknown.

Comments such as the one I have deleted are completely unfounded and inappropriate. Thebike 03:59, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vow of celibacy?

It was my understanding that clerics took a vow of chastity, but not a vow of celibacy. Celibacy was a mandates practice, but not something which was vowed. john k

Clerics do not take a vow of celibacy. Technically, a secular cleric (i.e. a diocesan priest) makes a promise to the church, with God as witness, to remain celibate. This is an oath, not a vow. However, if a cleric belongs to a religious order or congregation, he takes a vow of chastity along with vows of poverty and obedience. Those are direct promises to God. Pmadrid 22:12, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ELCA/ELCIC

YES. Unmarried pastors in the ELCA/ELCIC cannot have sex. A pastor cannot cohabit without marrying. To say that they don't have to sign a pledge is irrelevant. To my knowledge, nobody does. Gay pastors don't sign a pledge, they just minister with the undertanding that they do so conditional on their celibacy. Same for straight pastors. I am not going to engage in an edit war, so lets resolve this here please. Carolynparrishfan 12:18, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mormonism

It's a bit misleading to say that gay men are "bound by exactly the same rules" as straights. If the rules are no sex outside of heterosexual marriage (which is not an viable option for gays) then the deck is stacked. It gives a false sense of equality. The fact is that heterosexual Mormon clergymen can form loving, lifelong partnerships, and gay ones can't. I am reminded of the recent parliamentary debate over the Civil Marriage Act in which Jason Kenney asserted that the law as it existed then was fair because gays could legally get married--to members of the opposite sex. A novel argument, but silly and question-begging nonetheless. Carolynparrishfan 17:22, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Early History

I'm gathering some information on apostolic tradition and early church practice on this subject. I'm new as a wikipedia editor, so you will have to excuse mistakes (non-technical, that is). (I hope I did the right thing opening this new talk section.) Doc 07:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

As an aside note (to prepare you on this): in my church (Free Apostolic Church of Pentecost, Greece; will consider weather to create an entry) the rule is that deacons and presbyters (and thus bishops, being presbyters) are required to be married and having children. There is biblical as well as historical evidence that this was apostolic tradition and the practice of the early church. My contribution effort will be only to expose the historical evidence (fully referenced). The collective effort on this area should be perhaps on listing major denominations and which side they belong to (along with variations). Thank you for any comments. Doc 07:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Required to be married and having children? This is a bit strong. Permitted maybe. I'd like to see your evidence for this. Even before Clerical celibacy was made universal to all Latin Rite priets it was still a common practice. The Apostles became celibate, if they were not so before-hand, after they were called to follow Christ. In the Gospel (I can't remember where, and I'm paraphrasing) one of the Apostles asks Christ Isn't it then better not to marry at all? Jesus answered that this was not for everyone but only those who had been called. Also the passage 1 Corinthians 7 may shed some light on the matter Thebike 10:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The article cites various "Councils" of the Church that determined priestly celibacy, but these "Councils" were but local Synods. The "Council" of Elvira was a local Synod that affected only "Spain." [The modern country of Spain did not then exist - reason for quotes]. Only local bishops participated.67.8.201.227 22:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

@ Thebike: To play Devil's advocate, what evidence do we have of apostolic celibacy other than Paul's? Peter, for example, had a mother-in-law (Luke 4.38). It has always seemed to me that 1 Tim. 3.1-7 gives at least permission and possibly a preference for bishops to be married. This is not to dispute that celibacy was common in the 2nd century; but I would want to have good evidence for celibacy in the apostolic era before assuming that we can read the 2nd century back into the 1st. jrcagle 02:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Celibacy in the RC church

I'm not a fan of celibacy in church leadership, but I can't imagine that this paragraph fits under the NPOV guidelines:

Behind the image of a celibate Jesus is sexism that supports a social system giving men dominance. The thought of a non-celibate Jesus was an anathema to the Church Fathers of the first centuries who established the connection between sex and sin. St Ambrose wrote that, "The ministerial office must be kept pure and unspoiled and must not be defiled by coitus." St. Augustine (354-430) became the Church's greatest advocate for celibacy. He felt sex was always tainted and the "original sin" of Adam could only be passed on by intercourse and conception. St. Augustine said he considered an erect penis a visible sign of man's inner revolt against God.

I've tagged that section as POV with the hope that it can be re-worked by someone with specific knowledge of the issue. jrcagle 02:13, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I eliminated the following unfounded phrase:

Priests who had descendants had heirs. Heirs were problematic because the sanctuary and other possessions of the local church would go to them. By eliminating heirs, the church no longer had a problem holding onto property.

That is not supported by history and is rhetorically biased by basing a conclusion that is not related to the cause -- sort of like saying no one can shout fire in a crowded theater because the government wants to control how people think and what they say. If someone wants to discuss heirs they must do it academically.