Talk:Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg

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Date of review: 2006-08-08
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"...leading figures of anti-Nazi resistance movements during the WW II. "
This is a misleading statement. Stauffenberg was never inside a "movement", especially not in a dedicated anti-Nazi movement. He took part in a plot against Hitler, at a time when it was obvious that Germany will lose the war.
--zeno 04:33 Jan 13, 2003 (UTC)

Another historical error: many of the conspirators were actually killed slowly--according to some accounts, hanged with piano wire. Some accounts, which are a little difficult to corroborate, describe Hitler watching films of the executions repeatedly. Furthermore, Rommel, who was implicated in the plot, was allowed to commit suicide. What is teh source of them all being shot immediately (though many indeed were). Danny

The four "main" conspirators (Stauffenberg Olbricht von Haeften and von Quirnheim) were shot immediately, the article is correct. Source for me is documentation I saw yesterday ;)
In the days after that, almost 200 conspirators were executed in Berlin-Plötzensee
Pacifier

Any idea how Hitler escaped the assassination attempt ? Jay 10:14, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

According to the History Channel, the bomb was under an enormously thick oak table, that was just strong enough to deflect the blast. Hitler survived just by chance, while others around him were killed. I'm unsure how many others survived... (Someone please correct this if you know the details.)
--AmoebaMan 17:33 Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)
The bomb was at 1st just under hitlers feet but was moved by one of the other generals to another side of the table, the table leg did deflect some of the blast but there is also other factors to consider. At the time of the explosion hitler stood up a few seconds before to look at an area of a map one of his generals was pointing out. If hitler had remained seated he would've been killed. Also the meeting usually took place in a bunker which it didnt on this day, if it had everyone in the room would've died instantly, but on this day it took place in a house with open windows which allowed some of the force to escape the room. Also some more info the plan was to set off two bombs but only one was armed in time and stupidly not put back in the briefcase with the armed one, if it had been hitler would've been killed!!!!

Does anyone know what happened to Stauffenberg's wife and children??

Nina Countess Schenk von Stauffenberg died on April 2nd 2006, aged 92. She is survived by her five children. Her eldest son, Berthold, once held the rank of General in the Bundeswehr. Detmold 17.04.2006 01:20


Cassandra - 27/10/04 - 23.09 GMT

Read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer. He explains the plot and the assassination attempt in detail in that book.
see July 20 Plot. --High on a tree 23:33, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I removed the link to Berthold in the "Family" section because it links to a Wikipedia biography about Claus von Stauffenberg's brother, who was also named Berthold. The section in question refers to Berthold as the SON of Claus von Stauffenberg. It was all a simple name mix-up, in other words. --Cormac Canales 04:39, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

CGSvS was born in Jettingen castle (now Jettingen-Scheppach), Guenzburg district, Kingdom of Bavaria then and State of Bavaria now - Best regards, WernerE (german-wiki) 16.2.05

[edit] Views

I think von Stauffenberg's views (except for his obvious opposition to Hitler) need to be mentioned in the article. I don't know too much about it except for the fact that he was an anti-Semite.--Carabinieri 14:17, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I have read many books on Von Stauffenberg & I have never read naything about him being an anti-semite ("""")

Me neither (Khan 22:13, 2 November 2005 (UTC))

Yes Stauffenberg was a an-semite and racists. http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/reviewstr12.htm Housden pulls no punches when he points to Stauffenberg's view of Poles as "an unbelievable rabble," their country occupied by "a lot of Jews and a lot of cross-breeds" (p. 100). Similarly, Housden shows how General Beck's opposition to Hitler resulted from a disagreement over Hitler's tactics in annexing the Sudetenland, not Hitler's goals. Moltke is really the only one among the July 1944 conspirators to appear unambiguously opposed to Nazism on ideological grounds.

He also believed that Poles are slaves, that feel at best under the whip, I will add in time this information. --Molobo 12:45, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

See also Daniel Goldhagen: Hitler's Willing Executioners (pg. 146 in the German translation; i don't know what page in the English version). There is a quotation by Berthold von Stauffenberg, Claus's brother, who collaborated with him. Here is a rough translation: "We agreed to the basic ideas of the National Socialists concerning inner policy...The racialist idea...appeared healthy and promising to us."--Carabinieri 14:12, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Whilst Stauffenberg may have had good intentions in trying to end the life of Adolf Hitler, for the benefit of Germany and (possibly) bring an end to the war, his method was disgusting. Why didn't this man, who had access to Hitler, draw his pistol and shoot him point blank. Instead, he chooses to plant a bomb. No guarantees that it will hit his target, no guarantees that it will even detonate. Now you can turn this method of murder upside down and sideways but it's still the act of a terrorist. He not only failed in killing Hitler, he murdered four innocent men, including a stenographer. He had no quarrel with those men but chose to take their lives anyway. A terrorist tried to blow up the British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher in 1984, failed, killed two innocent people and he's a monster. Stauffenberg does the same act, trying to murder the head of state, failed, killed four other men in the process and he's a hero. Sorry, I don't quite see the reasoning behind that. You choose to plant a bomb, for whatever cause and there will be a fair chance that you will murder innocent people who just happen to be standing by. It's terrorism, period. It's cowardly, period. He had access to Hitler, should have shot him and taken the consequences alone. End of story. Detmold 17 April 2006 01:49

I've only ever fired a pistol in my right hand (I'm right-handed) and then it was a modern fire-arm. I don't know whether Stauffenberg was right-handed or not but if so firing a pistol with only three fingers remaining on your off-hand would be a difficult task at best. --Brother William 04:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

-Why didn't he shoot him? Because killing Hitler would have meant Goring taking over and nothing changing. The conspirators needed to seize control of the entire government, not just kill Hitler. As the article says, Stauffenberg was on the phone to various units ordering them to arrest political officers. None of the other conspirators were willing to step up and be the one to start ordering the military to take control and de-nazify the government. So, in a nutshell, Stauffenberg was too important to the coup to get shot immediately for killing Hitler. Rob 16:20, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image

Who deleted the image without reference to the talk page? -max rspct 19:13, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Execution Method

Yesterday I watched a video which said the conspriators were executed by 'being hung by the ribs on meat hooks'. But they were actually shot? Does anyone know for sure? I'd say there is quite a difference. ((shiver))

The ones rounded up immediately afterwards, including Stauffenberg, were shot, and later on the rest who were involved were arrested and placed on trial, after which they were hanged from meat hooks.

[edit] Wiederstand

Saying this was a soley conservative movement is highly inaccurate. -- max rspct 11.54 am GMT 03 april 2006

With all due respect: It is “Widerstand”. A word like Wiederstand does not exist German language.

To clear the main objective, have a look at German Resistance --Dionysos 19:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title

This article should be titled Claus Graf von Stauffenberg to be in conformity with other articles about German nobility. Adam 11:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure we have any kind of general policy on German nobility naming. See Otto von Bismarck, for instance. We ought to be clear on what the general policy is before we go moving around articles - especially if, as in this case, we'd be moving them to a less familiar version. Also, to be pedantic, wouldn't it technically be Claus Graf Schenk von Stauffenberg? john k 14:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

  • I think Bismarck is wrong too. It should presumably be Otto Furst von Bismarck. We lots of articles with "Graf" and "Freiherr" etc in the titles. I agree we should do one thing or the other consistently.
  • I have always assumed that Schenk was a given name. Was his surname actually Schenk von Stauffenberg? Adam 16:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Otto Fürst von Bismarck, surely? But does that mean Metternich has to be at Klemens Fürst von Metternich-Winneburg? This seems to get us further from Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), at least in some cases. It would, of course, be simpler to do it this way, but perhaps it would be better to take this up over at the useless mess that nobody will ever respond to that is Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles). john k 17:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

OK I will leave the larger question to you - I tend to lose patience with that kind of meta-debate. Specifically on Stauffenberg, we now seem to have three possibilities:

  • That his surname was von Stauffenberg, his given names were Claus Schenk and his title was Graf.
  • That his surname was Schenk von Stauffenberg, his given name was Claus and his title was Graf.
  • That his surname was von Stauffenberg, his given name was Claus and his title was Graf Schenk.

Can anyone give a firm answer (not more speculation) on which was the case? Adam 01:09, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

His surname was Schenk von Stauffenberg. His forenames were Claus Philipp Maria. His name would ordinarily be given as Claus Philipp Maria Schenck Graf von Stauffenberg. He'd be alphabetized under "Schenk v. Stauffenberg" (and so would the other members of his family). See the Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels: Gräfliche Häuser A Band II, von Ehrenkrook, Hans Friedrich, C. A. Starke Verlag, Glücksburg/Ostsee, 1955, Band II. - Nunh-huh 02:14, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for that.
Titles tend to be appended onto surnames and become part of the surname, which seems to be what happened here. And when English speakers pick them up, the tendency is to hang on only to part of it. (I think he's best known as Claus von Stauffenberg in English). Of course, since Germany outlawed titles in 1919, and they became part of the surname, you could equally well say his surname was "Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg" and he had no title. - Nunh-huh 03:06, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Interesting, but the article should be named for the full name that the subject is known for. Stauffenberg is an known for much more than his german nobility. Check Prince Peter Kropotkin. -- max rspct leave a message 02:00, 7 June 2006

2 cents/euros/etc: My impression of the consensus over this kind of issue is to keep the article title in the "straightforward" form (which I believe for (von) Stauffenberg is as at present) and roll out the full works within the first one or two sentences of the article. Cf Wernher von Braun for another example. Regards, David Kernow 02:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Schenk is a title, not part of the name (von Stauffenberg). dewiki uses "Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg", since that is apparently most common in German academic literature. One possible reason might be that "Schenk" (Cupbearer) is a lower title than "Graf" (Count). Kusma (討論) 02:26, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Nunh-huh: Yes, I understand how the title/name Graf works in German names. The issue is the status of Schenk - is it a name or a title? Adam 03:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It's a name. If it originated as a title (and it seems it did), it's no less a name now. Just like in "Opie Tailor", "tailor" no longer indicates a profession, but a name. As far as I know, Schenk has not been used as a title since the Middle Ages. It's certainly treated as part of the surname in the GHdA. There's no ambiguity there: they put surnames in bold, and titles in plain text, and it's Schenk Gf v. Stauffenberg, C l a u s Philipp Maria. (The letter spacing, or sperren, of "C l a u s" indicating it's the name he went by.) - Nunh-huh 04:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

OK. It seems therefore than in post-1918 times the family's surname has been Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg, with the old noble titles Schenk and Graf incorporated into the name. Our hero's name is therefore Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg, and that is what the article should be called, with all the other variants as redirects. Can anyone fault this logic? Adam 04:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I suppose that seems right. We're sure it's "Schenk Graf" and not "Graf Schenk"? john k 10:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg gets 41,400 googles (including de.wikipedia), Claus Graf Schenk von Stauffenberg gets 23,100 (inluding Britannica). Take your pick. Adam 11:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, Nunh-huh has access to the GHdA, which apparently has "Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg," so I suppose we should stick with that. john k 12:06, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

So, alle stimmen wir zu. Adam 12:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Since appear to have consensus, can someone move the article to Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg? Adam 01:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Done, now fixing all those double redirects. Kusma (討論) 02:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Done. His redirects include Stauffenberg, which perhaps should be a dab page rather than a redirect? Kusma (討論) 02:32, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there is a whole family of them. His widow, who died this year, merits an article in her own right, and his son was also a general. Adam 03:03, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

According to de:Stauffenberg, which also clears up the "Schenk" question (it calls it a title that was turned into a name in 1918), there are also some older Stauffenbergs that could have articles. Probably worth translating... Kusma (討論) 03:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I have done a Stauffenberg dab page. Adam 05:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I have moved the other two Stauffenbergs. Note that we also have a Category:Stauffenberg. Kusma (討論) 15:46, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I think Berthold Jr should have his own article. Also, the category seems pretty redundant to me. Adam 15:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Stupid move

Why change the name of the article.. Probably because there are wikipedians obsessed with titles of nobility, This is not a who's who.. Claus is usually known by the original name of the article. -- max rspct leave a message 16:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The article isn't exactly neutral

While it reflects the rather average view of him in public, historians have researched this person more in detail, he wasn't a saint and had both anti-polish and anti-semitic beliefs which he expressed. He was more a old-Guard German nationalist that didn't like the new breed of politics introduced by Hitler then fighter for democracy. This can be sourced quite easly by various historic research. --Molobo 18:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Well go and do that then. Put your suggestions on this page. -- max rspct leave a message 19:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Ah, Molobo, virtually everyone those days had some anti-this or anti-that beliefs. That's not relevant at all. Additionally, I don't see what could be wrong about being a German nationalist. 217.85.110.56 20:42, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


No, you're wrong...NOT virtually everybody in these days had anti-this or anti-that beliefs in germany...there were for example the group "weiße rose"(white rose). They were resistance fighters fighting hitler for the sake of democracy and because they were against anti-semitism, which is historically proven. So if you compare them to von Stauffenberg you will see that there is a whole different quality. Therefor,I agree with Molobo, reading this article one might be mislead to think that von Stauffenberg was a hero, but he served under hitler for many years and therefor witnessed, maybe participated but at least agreed silently with too many cruel acts of unhumanity to deserve to be portrayed like a hero.

[edit] Facts need to be checked

A few facts would nee a checkup.

  • To my knowledge (and I am german), his common name is Claus Schenk, and Graf von Stauffenberg would be his noble title. In germany, nobles bear a common name consisting of given and family name, and a title, which often is "Graf von", "von", "von und zu" and some others, in combination with the name of a place. So that'd make him Claus Schenk, the Graf von (Count of) Stauffenberg. I do not know about a noble title "Schenk".
  • AFAIR, one of his arms was crippled, a war injury, which contributed to him not being able to arm both bombs.
  • He's not exactly regarded a national hero. He's a symbol of the resistance, but his moral is dubious, as mentioned further down on the page. It is true that there are some streets named after him, and his story is part of the folklore/myth surrounding WW2, but the truth is that he was far too late, even if he'd been effective. He proved loyal to humanity, though, and thus is regarded as somewhat rehabilitated from being a Nazi. The people regarded heroes (or, at least, better symbols of the little resistance that was) like the "Weiße Rose" or the "Edelweißpiraten" had much sadder stories.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.174.16.72 (talk • contribs) 22:16, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
For the name stuff, see de:Schenk (Adelstitel) and de:Stauffenberg and the talk page of the German article. Kusma (討論) 22:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

In reply:

  • The photo of Stauffenberg on page 251 of Fest clearly shows that he had two arms. Fest says (215) that he lost his right hand and the 3rd and 4th fingers of his left hand. The timer of the fuse was designed so that he could trigger it with the remaining fingers of his left hand.
  • Stauffenberg and Haeften took two bombs to Rastenburg. While they were in Keitel's rooms before the conference, they set the fuse to one of them, but they were interrupted by a phone call before they could set the fuse for the second bomb. It is not known for certain that they intended to take both bombs into the conference - the second bomb may have been a reserve. Since Both Stauffenberg and Haeften were shot the next day this can never be known (Fest 255-56).
  • I agree that the statement that "Stauffenberg is a national hero" is much too simple. Up until the 1970s, when the wartime generation was still in charge, and when, particularly, most serving Bundeswehr officers were World War II veterans, this was not the case. Many regarded the July 20 plotters as traitors, even if they acknowledged that the Nazi regime was evil and that it was just as well that Germany lost the war. There was very little public memorialising of the plotters. It is only over the last 25 years, as the wartime generation has faded away,, that the view of them as heroes as been generally and officially promoted - but I am sceptical that the majority of Germans really believe this. People in the former DDR, for one thing, were taught at school that the KPD were the only real resistance and that the July 20 plotters were a clique of disgruntled aristocrats. There is just enough truth in this for this view to have persisted. Adam 02:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Nom Failed

Interesting article! Enjoyed it!

  • I'd try and expand your lead to at least two paragraphs if you can (WP:LEAD)
  • Also it needs inline citations
  • Do we know why "one of eight conspirators executed by strangulation" happened as opposed to the firing squad? Intriguing difference....

plange 05:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, Stauffenberg-signature-head.jpg needs a more appropriate tag and source for where it came from. plange 05:36, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Since none of the above were addressed in the 7 day window, I've moved this from being on hold to failed. Once these have been addressed, please re-nominate! plange 20:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Berthold

The linkage of Berthold, son of Claus (last paragraph, implying the link leads to the wikipedia article of the son) actually links to the wikipedia article of Berthold (brother of Claus). Berthold (son) most probably is still living and a Bundeswehr "General a.D" (or was still living on 2006-11-26 according to [1]). Someone with a deeper understanding how to solve this should look into it. --84.168.3.99 00:13, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Fixed the old link, and expanded with this one, thanks! -- Matthead discuß!     O       07:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
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