Talk:Claudette Colbert/Archive 1

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[edit] Unsourced edits

While not widely talked about, Claudette Colbert was a known bisexual to her intimates. Her affair with Marlene Dietrich is mentioned on that page and she had a long standing relationship with Verna Hull who had an adjacent house to hers in Barbados. So far only anonymous users have removed these items. It would be appreciated that before removing them again the person would identify themselves and state their reasons. I knew the persons involved. Doc 16:42, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Who is Verna Hull? Woman of fictitious?--Wbrz 01:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Doc. It wasn't me that removed them, however I am in favour of removing them. I appreciate that you knew the people involved and I've read of Colbert described as bisexual, so I'm not disbelieving it. The issue is Wikipedia:Verifiability. Obviously nobody is going to dispute the other things in the article about her movies and what-not, but her bisexuality is another story - if a published source could be cited that would greatly improve the situation. I'm sure you appreciate that a lot of gossip and innuendo has attached itself to various Hollywood celebrities past and present - without verification there is nothing to distinguish this from various other lies and half-truths that are scattered throughout numerous biographical articles. Rossrs 13:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

In short, you want to say that Colbert was a bisexual. Rossrs said I've read of Colbert described as bisexual, so I'm not disbelieving it. The issue is Wikipedia:Verifiability. Is it so? Sexual perversion, leave here.--219.104.29.203 13:24, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

If that comment is directed at me : no I do not want to say in Colbert's article that Colbert was a bisexual. Do you realize that you are replying to comments that were made more than a year ago? Doc is not part of this discussion, so he is not likely to reply. Neither is User:Chandler75 who you have replied to below. You keep bringing my name into things, do you realize that I agree with you that it should not be added? You say it should be left here - it is left here. You are the one that can't leave the subject alone. As you are the only one still making comments about this old discussion, would you like me to archive this section so that it no longer appears on this page? It is obviously bothering you. We can't delete it, but we can move it so that it is no longer visible. Would that help? Rossrs 13:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Vivien Leigh's fan, leave here.--219.104.29.203 13:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll take that as a "no". Rossrs 14:56, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Many people testify about Laurence Olivier having been a bisexual. He suggested a thing like it with his autobiography. Who testified that Colbert was a bisexual? her husbands? her friends? Please lead a conclusion from a cause. Please do not give top priority to a conclusion.--Wbrz 01:43, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Wish that I knew of a source other than first hand knowledge. I knew Verna Hull rather well and worked with her. I met Claudette a time or two with Verna and many intimates knew of their relationship and adjacent houses in Barbados. Neither made a show of it, but in the 1960s it was an accepted fact among their good friends. Doc 20:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Her husband was still alive in 1960's. Did not her friend have to live in the neighbor with her? Are you a delusion maniac? --Wbrz 03:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

You might try "The Sewing Circle" by Axel Madsen but I don't know if she's in it. Though Rossrs states, "Without verification there is nothing to distinguish this from various other lies and half-truths that are scattered throughout numerous biographical articles", as far as Wikipedia is concerned, trash between the covers of a book is all that's needed. Madsen's piece of junk should do just fine, focusing as it does on Mercedes de Acosta, Garbo, Dietrich et al. As someone once said of de Acosta's book, "Here Lies the Heart," - "and lies and lies and lies." Forget the typos, the misspellings, the inaccuracies - this is what Wikipedia calls a great reference and should suit your purposes. As far as an affair with Garbo, I worked on the Garbo bio by Barry Paris and don't recall any such thing being the case. Paris is extremely thorough, with fastidious source notes, and is highly regarded as one of the best biographers ever. You probably don't see him quoted much on Wikipedia.Chandler75 01:14, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Documents the double life of "The Sewing Circle," a group of lesbians and bisexuals that included Marlene Dietrich, Greta Garbo, Tallulah Bankhead, Joan Crawford, Myrna Loy and Agnes Moorehead.--218.217.208.185 10:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

It is a thing heard of for the first time that Colbert has met Greta Garbo. Are not they your ideas at all? Were not the celebrities only combined by force?--Wbrz 01:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

In response, Colbert's friend Helen O'Hagan told the New York Daily News that the actress barely knew Dietrich or Garbo, and that Colbert was "a man's lady".--218.217.208.119 06:43, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Boze Hadleigh also wrote about Colbert -- I think his work is unfairly disparaged. I've lived in Hollywood for 24 years and have met many people who confirm Hadleigh's facts from first or second-hand knowledge -- which is a lot better than most accepted history. A few people seem to require a higher standard -- almost impossible to meet -- for the bisexual/homosexual information, and they seem to be on a mission to cleanse all of it from Wikipedia.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.7.11.178 (talk • contribs) 18:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Boze Hadleigh, a journalist, interviewer and writer primarily of gossip about homosexuals of Hollywood.--Wbrz 03:57, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

When writing about people's private lives, a higher standard is required than just hearsay or interviews where there are no tapes or that have been published after a person's death when they can't deny them and can't sue. If you're going to write that some people at Wikipedia don't want to put unfounded statements in an article, you should sign your message.Chandler75 09:19, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

She was a noble lady. Leave here if you want to do obscene stories.--219.104.29.203 13:24, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

How does this work, a direct quote from Chapter 11 of The First Lady (a re-release of "April Ashley's Odyssey" by April Ashley by Duncan Fallowell (London: Jonathan Cape, 1982, ISBN 0-224-01849-3): "And I visited Verna Hull who often came to AD8 when she was in London. She lived next door to Claudette Colbert with whom she'd shared a house for many years. But they'd fallen out and despite living only feet apart they didn't speak at all." Also, in an article about Colbert that was published in the Spanish newspaper El Mundo in 2006 is the following information: "mantuvo una larga relación con una mujer llamada Verna Hull, su vecina en la isla caribeña de Barbados".[1] 204.126.250.112 22:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Duncan Fallowell's book, the biography of a trans-sexual, April Ashley's Odyssey (1982).--218.217.208.119 06:00, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

After Colbert's death, her purported bisexuality was explored most deeply in a well-reviewed book about gays, lesbians, and bisexuals in Hollywood, which was written by William J. Mann. I have added it to the article, though carefully using qualifiers re her sexuality, which remains unknown, or at the very least, unproven. But since the book was well-reviewed and considered by most critics I've found on LexisNexis and ProQuest as well researched, it merits inclusion in the article.204.126.250.98 22:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

William J. Mann, an iconoclastic-openly gay author and film historian. His book Behind the Scenes: How Gays and Lesbians Shaped 1910-1969--218.217.208.159 01:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no source in the above-mentioned though a lot of sentences were being written. All are the comments on anonymity. Nevertheless, other party's real name comes out. Then, what on earth was her marriage? Were her marriages all lies? There is not explanation about it at all as above. Please put out the source if she has met even once with Garbo. I can think only with the third-rate gossip that people liking a so erotic story finished. If such a thing was written in the Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, Who testified? Or, who saw? Please write such evidence. It can be thought an extremely unfair way.--218.217.207.123 06:34, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vanity Fair

Vanity Fair did a article on Colbert a few years back and researched the bisexual/lesbian rumor and came up with nothing proving it or no one who knew her who would confirm it so it's apparently not true. User:209.124.229.184 03:25, 2 March 2006

Not correct, don't know who Vanity Fair talked with, but not the ones in the know if that was their conclusion. Do you know the date? I'd like to read the article. As stated above I met her and knew her longest standing lover Verna Hull who was very open about their relationship in the 1970s. Doc 18:47, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

This comment is a little confusing; what bisexual? what lesbian? Please supply references etc for inclusion in the article.--218.217.208.159 01:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Please write not the rumor going around town but the source. Please write not your guess but evidence. How did the person who knew her during the lifetime make a remark for her? Or please write the fact that the third person watched her.--Wbrz 08:27, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia section

As per Wikipedia's general attitude towards trivia (WP:Trivia) I am going to attempt to remove the section by either absorbing relevant information into the article, and removing anything that is either irrelevant to a general appreciate of Colbert's life and career, or contravenes Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. I am recording my views for each point here, as I expect disagreement. I would welcome discussion here if anyone disagrees with edits related to this section.

*Relations between her mother and grandmother were poor. Colbert was closest to her grandmother. needs citing, but maybe somewhat relevant and could easily be added into the article

has been added to article. Rossrs 20:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

*She worked as a stenographer, a salesclerk in womens' clothing, and a tutor, in order to pay her expenses at the Art Students League of New York. could easily be added into the article

has been added to article Rossrs 20:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

*For the Love of Mike (1927) is a lost film; the print no longer exists. relevant as her film debut and could easily be added into article

has been added to article Rossrs 20:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

*Colbert made ten films at Astoria Studios in Queens, New York. maybe relevant, could be added if the right place in the article is determined.

has been added to article Rossrs 20:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

*Ellie Andrews of It Happened One Night (1934) was a part refused by all other actresses in Hollywood. really? every single one? so if Marie Dressler had wanted to do it, they would have let her? Even Colbert accepted only on condition that the salary be doubled and that the picture would take only four weeks to make. significant film, interesting comment, could be added, needs source though.

has been added to article Rossrs 20:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
  • She did not attend Academy Awards at first in 1935, because she thought that Bette Davis would win the Oscar. However, she was taken to the hall by the academy staff afterwards. of minor relevance
  • Her first marriage was originally kept secret; she and Norman Foster did not even live together. this point is covered in the article slightly. the comment as it stands here is irrelevant as it does not attempt to answer the most important question - why did they do this?
  • Mary Pickford also was an actress who did not allow to take the photograph only from the left side as well as Claudette Colbert. irrelevant
  • She got sick during production of Tovarich (1937). Therefore shooting of the film was prolonged. irrelevant. she also injured her back and missed playing in All About Eve - much more significant
  • Production of Drums Along the Mohawk (1939) cost a large amount of expense. almost every film "cost a large amount", what's so special about this one? irrelevant.

Production of Drums Along the Mohawk (1939) cost more to produce than her other movies.--218.217.206.18 22:00, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

  • Scenes showing Colbert's face from the right show she was equally lovely from that side, but such shots are hard to find. then wait until one is found and then quote someone of repute declaring her to be lovely. Wikipedia should not be presenting this opinion, just the facts.
  • Colbert had talent of business. this comment means nothing without further explanation.

Colbert moved about well on the business side in the Hollywood age.--218.217.206.18 21:54, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

  • There was no romance between Colbert and men other than her husband. this is outrageous. how would anybody but Colbert know this?

There was no rumor that she had the romance with men other than her husband.--218.217.206.18 22:00, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

  • She had used the house in Palm Springs as a second home when she was living in Los Angeles. irrelevant
  • She worried about becoming overweight and was careful about not overeating. most actresses had the same fear if they wanted to keep working. irrelevant.

She was worrying about her health.--218.217.206.18 22:00, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

  • Claudette did not work overtime. irrelevant without further context/explanation. how is it significant?--218.217.206.18 21:54, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

*The idea of a villa in Barbados came to her following a visit to Noel Coward's house in Jamaica. could be mentioned in the article, though it's not particularly important it would be part of an exisiting paragraph.

has been added to article Rossrs 20:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

*In 1963 she appeared in television commercials for Maxwell House coffee. should be put into the article

has been added to article Rossrs 20:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

*Although in 1969, Colbert said that she intended to write a book entitled "How to Run a House" for her friend's Bennett Cerf's Random House Press, this was not to be. She never even published an autobiography. should be put in article - but needs a source

has been added to article Rossrs 20:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
  • She kept two dogs in the active times and kept a cat in later years. irrelevant Rossrs 13:41, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Adhesion anti?--219.104.27.181 09:54, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I was going to get rid of most of the trivia, but since you're already on the job, more power to you. I agree with nearly all of your comments (I don't think an unwritten book merits inclusion though). Clarityfiend 05:52, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mrs. Pressman

The first sentence called her "Mrs. Pressman". I removed that, since it's rather odd and doesn't exist in any other articles in Wikipedia. It was re-added and my edit called vandalism. It was a good faith edit, not vandalism. I'd appreciate input from others on this topic. Corvus cornix 22:47, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

User:Wbrz is repeatedly calling my edit vandalism and is now issuing threats to me on my Talk page. Corvus cornix 23:03, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Calling her Mrs. Pressman is very unusual and not in keeping with the style of Wikipedia, there's probably a guideline in the MOS somewhere. You can remove that message from your talk page as it appears to be issued in bad faith. John Reaves (talk) 23:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. Another editor has removed it. Corvus cornix 23:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Colbert had two husbands. She divorced the first husband immediately. She lost the second husband. Therefore, she was a widow. Spouse(s), Norman Foster (1928-1935), Dr. Joel Pressman (1935 – his death in 1968), She was interred beside her second husband.

Because it erased a public fact for a personal thought, is not it destruction?--Wbrz 00:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Enough of this Mrs Pressman silliness! She was Claudette Colbert. There is ample reference made to her marriage to Dr Pressman in the section "Marriages". If there is a place for this reference, that is where it belongs, not in the first sentence of the article. Orbicle 12:13, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. This is nothing but silliness. "Claudette Colbert" is the name she made famous. And this, from Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Names states it plainly and clearly :
"But in all cases, a woman should be called by the name she is most widely known under. Elizabeth Taylor, even though she was married eight times, would not be referred to under those other surnames." (my emphasis. I don't think I can state strongly enough that this applies to all cases.) Rossrs 12:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Because you want to say that she was a lesbian, you do not like Mrs. Pressman?--219.104.29.203 13:37, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

No. Read my earlier comments carefully - I do not want to say Colbert was bisexual or lesbian or heterosexual. I don't want to say she was anything but an actress. I said earlier that I thought the comments should be removed. How could you misunderstand that? All articles must follow Wikipedia's guidelines. It was decided long ago that a person should be referred to by the name they are best known for. There are thousands of articles on Wikipedia about actresses - the only one I have ever seen where the name was followed by "Mrs .....", is this one. Not Elizabeth Taylor, not Zsa Zsa Gabor, not any other married actress, just Claudette Colbert. We are not going to make a special rule for Claudette Colbert just because you are bothered by it. You are making a huge leap if you think it somehow means I want to suggest that Claudette Colbert was bisexual. I do not know or care about her sexuality. OK? Click on this link and read it please :Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Names. Read it through a few times so that before you comment again, you know exactly what you are talking about.
The bit you need to read is this ""But in all cases, a woman should be called by the name she is most widely known under. Elizabeth Taylor, even though she was married eight times, would not be referred to under those other surnames." Rossrs 13:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The person who doubts that she was a bisexual even once must leave here.--219.104.29.203 13:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Well that would be you, as you've made it clear that you doubt she was bisexual. You obviously haven't bothered taking my suggestion, so I'm not going to try to help you any more. But as you're leaving, I guess it doesn't matter. Rossrs 14:03, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] It Happened One Night → Greatest Success?

It Happened One Night → Greatest Success? There are pros and cons in the United States about this movie. Therefore, you should not praise it blindly.--Wptfe 06:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you're right in saying that there are pros and cons for the movie. I'm not saying the movie itself was a "great success" but I am saying it was "one of her (Colbert's) greatest successes". I think that is fair - for Colbert personally it was a success, she won a lot of recognition, plus her only Academy Award, for it. Also, the film was made 73 years ago and is still one of the films she is most remembered by. Rossrs 06:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Do not tinker for your guesswork without permission.--219.104.2.139 18:26, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't require your permission for any edits I might make, and my edits are all attributed to source material - there's no guesswork. Rossrs 06:28, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "worst picture in the world"

"worst picture in the world", covered in New York Times 07-31-1996, p. D21, Don't remove perfectly notable information on the stars of her films. Don't see any facts in the article.--219.104.2.21 12:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

If you don't want information removed then cite your source. Don't expect other editors to be able to read your mind. That's all you have to do. Cite it the way the other quotes are cited. Rossrs 13:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

"worst picture in the world", was the one being written with Colbert initially balked at pulling up her skirt to entice a passing driver to give a ride, complaining that it was unladylike. However, upon seeing the chorus girl who was brought in as her body double, an outraged Colbert told the director, "Get her out of here. I'll do it. That's not my leg!". You separated them.--219.104.30.149 14:19, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism, gibberish and illiteracy

Seem to be the standards of the last edits. One hardly knows where to begin to correct the "English" used. It looks like a war has been declared by the last two editors to see how puerile and unintelligible their additions can be. I, for one, think it pointless to intervene. I don't know if the page can be protected again, but that would be a boon. Orbicle 16:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Are you a It Happened One Nights fan? This article is Claudette Colbert's page, not page of It Happened One Night. If you wants to write the thing of It Happened One Night lengthily, should write it on page of It Happened One Night. --218.217.216.235 17:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The film is important enough to Colbert's career to warrant discussion. The rest of the article could be expanded to include more detail as it's all very vague and brief right now. I see the It Happened One Night section as now being sufficiently covered, and I think it's the rest of the article that needs work. In any case, it wasn't Orbicle who added the It Happened One Night information, so as usual, you are accusing the wrong editor. Rossrs 06:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What is Jack Warner?

What is Jack Warner? It is an irrelevant story to Colbert.--219.104.2.21 12:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Please do not write Jack Warner or Myrna Loy's story lengthily.--219.104.30.200 12:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

and please do not continue removing this information just because you don't believe it is relevant. The film was one of the turning points of Colbert's career, so to explain how she came to make a film that she didn't want to make, but which she is still remembered for 72 years later, is significant. Colbert had a great career, but it needs to be placed into some kind of historical context instead of the endless gushing praise that is being spread through this article. It's relevant and it's sourced. Please read WP:Consensus and if you want to remove it, wait until you have reached a consensus. There is no agreement to remove it, only your opinion. If you look at other Wikipedia Featured Articles, this kind of related discussion is considered normal as it places the subject, in this case Colbert, into a broader context that helps understand her better. Rossrs 13:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What is Myrna Loy?

moved → Trivia section : extraneous Jack Warner's detail better suited for Jack Warner article. This article needs to be specific to Claudette Colbert. moved → Trivia section : Myrna Loy's extraneous detail better suited for Myrna Loy's article. This article needs to be specific to Claudette Colbert.--219.104.30.196 13:13, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

no, these comments are more related to Colbert, than they are to either Warner or Loy. Just because the comments were made by Warner and Loy doesn't mean they are important to them. Why on earth would they be put into the Warner or Loy articles? They directly affected Colbert. Your edits confuse me. For one thing you changed Loy's comment before you put it in the trivia section. What is this nonsense about films on a bus? That is not what Loy said. That was a sourced quote and you replaced it with something unsourced. You can't do that. You also kept the references to the other 3 actresses but removed Loy? Why? Where is the logic? Rossrs 13:32, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Warner and Loy are personally unrelated to Colbert's career. They were indirect.　Please write Warner and Roy to trivia section. --219.104.30.149 14:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

It's not "Roy" it's "Loy". You haven't even attempted to answer my questions. A discussion is not about you telling me what to do. Rossrs 14:18, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

This article writes Colbert's career whole. A certain specific work alone should not be picked up. --219.104.30.149 14:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] moved → Trivia section

moved → Trivia section : extraneous the film detail better suited for It Happened One Night article. This article needs to be specific to Claudette Colbert--219.104.2.21 12:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Large sections of the article which contained very apposite information about Colbert have been perfunctorily moved to a Trivia section. THEY DO NOT BELONG THERE. In fact, the general idea is to get rid of trivia sections as much as possible, not to create them. How can the references to All About Eve/Margo Channing, especially the Colbert quote about crying for years be considered Trivia? Orbicle 23:46, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

About State Of The Union, All About Eve and A Streetcar Named Desire. Those movies were not her Later Careers. It is not Vandalism. Never write !! --Wptfe 03:31, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Orbicle. This is the same point I have been trying to make. User:Wptfe and his multiple anon IP's seem to think that as soon as a name other than "Claudette Colbert" is mentioned, it is irrelevant and gets moved to a trivia section, which should not be there anyhow. It seems to be personal judging by the comments on this user's talk page, and there is also a problem with me being Australian (where we speak fluent English BTW). I have suggested more than once that this user read WP:Consensus. So : User:Wptfe and your gaggle of anons, please note - I am going to remove the trivia section again. DO NOT REVERT THIS unless you have a CONSENSUS. If you do, it will be considered as VANDALISM and reported accordingly. Rossrs 00:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Rossrs wrote: "... me being Australian (where we speak fluent English BTW)..."

No way! Who knew? I thought the national language was Strine. ;-) Orbicle 13:29, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh yes, my mistake. I speak Strine, but (I try to) write English! ;-) Rossrs

[edit] Revert & Protect

I've reverted the article and protected it. The previous version had rather major POV issues and was basically written like a fansite. For example:

"With her heart-shaped face, lively wide eyes, charm, aristocratic manner, and flair for light comedy as well as emotional drama"
"Colbert's elegant, musical voice was one of her best assets."

This is unsourced opinion, apparently on the part of the editor adding it. This goes against WP:NPOV. The current version has none of those problems. I'm leaving it protected for a bit because I want to see discussion here, not reverts on the article.--Isotope23 13:26, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

reverted again... the deletions were absolutely explained: the birthplace changes are unsourced and the name changes go against WP:NAME.--Isotope23 02:29, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
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