Talk:Civil war in Tajikistan

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Civil war in Tajikistan is part of WikiProject Central Asia, a project to improve all Central Asia-related articles. This includes but is not limited to Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Mongolia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Xinjiang, Tibet and Central Asian portions of Iran and Russia, region-specific topics, and anything else related to Central Asia. If you would like to help improve this and other Central Asia-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.
???	This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the Project's quality scale.
???	This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the Project's importance scale.
	After rating the article, please provide a short summary on the article's ratings summary page to explain your ratings and/or identify the strengths and weaknesses.

	This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
Additional information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following to the template call: <!-- 1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points are appropriately cited. --> |B-Class-1=yes/no <!-- 2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain major omissions or inaccuracies. --> |B-Class-2=yes/no <!-- 3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content. --> |B-Class-3=yes/no <!-- 4. It is free from major grammatical errors. --> |B-Class-4=yes/no <!-- 5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. --> |B-Class-5=yes/no

[edit] Proposed Name Change

I think this page needs a name change, and it's best if it happens now before it grows any larger. The problem is that to call the civil war in Tajikistan the "Tajikistan Civil War" is grammatically incorrect. Tajikistan is a noun, not an adjective. It is like saying "America Civil War", rather than "American Civil War", or "Russia Revolution", rather than "Russian Revolution." It would be correct to call this article "Tajik Civil War", but many people have expressed concern that using the word Tajik to describe anything about Tajikistan is not sensitive to the ethnic diversity of the country.

I think two useful alternatives are "Tajikistani Civil War" and "The Civil War in Tajikistan." I'm more partial to the later, because many people, especially scholars, don't use the word "Tajikistani." There is no consensus amongst academics that Tajikistani is better than Tajik. The name "The Civil War in Tajikistan" might have two extra words, but it's certainly not too long or confusing.

I think it's important to have this discussion because history has not decided yet what to call this war. There's no comprehensive source in English on the subject, and what ever Wikipedia calls this war is likely to become a standard name for the war.

Anyone got an opinion on this? I'll let this message stay up for a while and if after a week or so there are no comments I'll make the official name change proposal. --David Straub 01:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm in favor of moving it to Civil War in Tajikistan or better yet Civil War of Tajikistan. What do you think? -- Aivazovsky 01:55, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

That sounds fine. Let's wait a few more days for any other suggestions and then make a proposed move. --David Straub 02:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

For now, the article has been moved to Civil War in Tajikistan. However, I'm beginning to think that the name that sounds the best is "Tajik Civil War." Sure it doesn't encompass every ethnic group in the country but neither does the name "Georgian Civil War" which is used to describe the unrest in Georgia which involved conflicts with Abkhazia and South Ossetia. The same can also be said of the "Russian Civil War" - Russians weren't the only group to be part of that conflict. -- Aivazovsky 04:01, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I think Tajik Civil War sounds better too, but some very educated Tajiks I've met disagree with that term, because it sounds like Tajiks vs. Tajiks fighting, when they contend that it was actually the work of non-Tajik outsiders. The current title is probably as non-controversial as we'll get. ––David Straub 10:10, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Just for the record, here are some more images that we can use in the article:

I have more too which I may upload later. -- Aivazovsky 02:03, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic cleansing?

Describing the violence in the civil war as ethnic cleansing seems like a strong POV. To label the violence against Islamic groups of tajikistan as ethnic cleansing, there should be more credible references. Who has called it "ethnic cleansing"? Human Right Watch? Soros Institute (Open Sosiety Institute)? I checked the report by Human Right Watch. It doesn't mention "ethnic cleansing". It talks about ethnic conflicts, and even "ethnic hatred". But referring to any violence (partly associated with ethnic conflicts) as ethnic cleansing doesn't make sense. Jahangard 15:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Jahangard, did you read both sources? You keep mentioning that you checked the The HRW report, but did you read the OSI report? And there are two paper sources, have you ever heard of a library? I'm reposting the the response I gave to Jahangard's simliar accuasations for Garmis.

Wow! There's a lot of big allegations in that one. I think Jahangard should really study a little bit more about the history of Tajikistan before he does many more edits. He should also read all of the sources before making dangerous allegations as above. If he had read the second source, as well as the two paper sources cited, he would have noted a clear and consistent historiography pattern that there is a concensus amongst researchers that there was a massacre of Garmis and Pamiris. Actually I don't think any except Jahangard dispute this fact and the only reason he does is because he is obviously completely ignorant of the Civil War in Tajikistan. The second source listed was published by the Open Society Institute and states, which is there for Janhangard to plainly see, that:

"The Kulobis, led by prominent local criminals and now named the Popular Front, launched a campaign to kill or expel all Garmis from the south, looting and burning their villages. Having completed that, the Popular Front pressed on to Dushanbe, where they arrested and killed scores of prominent Garmis and Pamiris, often on the mere presumption of their sympathy with the opposition." Tajikistan: Refugee Reintegration And Conflict Prevention

Note the the phrase “campaign to kill or expel all Garmis from the south.” This happened in 1992 and 1993 and is clearly documented by OSI, Human Rights Watch, and the United Nations, amongst others. There is no original research going on here, but there are some fallacious accusations based on total ignorance being tossed around here.--David Straub 03:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I also checked OSI report. It hasn't mention "ethnic cleansing" either. Anyway, mentioning HRW report as refeerence for a sentence, when it doesn't support that sentence, is not acceptable. About OSI report, you can mention these allegation ("killing prominent Garmis on the mere presumption of their sympathy with the opposition") as their claim and their analysis (not as undoubtable facts). Jahangard 03:38, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Why don't we just give a direct quote? Khoikhoi 04:23, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

It would be much better. Jahangard 05:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I will conceded this point: that neither article explicitly uses the term ethnic cleansing. But if you read the sources and compare them to the definition of ethnic cleansing given in wikipedia on ethnic cleansing then you see that what happened to Garmis and Pamiris in the fall of 1992 and winter of 1993 fits the definition of ethnic cleansing.

The first definition from the wikipedia article is: “ethnic cleansing can be understood as the expulsion of an "undesirable" population from a given territory due to religious or ethnic discrimination, political, strategic or ideological considerations, or a combination of these.”

The second definition is: “[E]thnic cleansing is a well-defined policy of a particular group of persons to systematically eliminate another group from a given territory on the basis of religious, ethnic or national origin. Such a policy involves violence and is very often connected with military operations. It is to be achieved by all possible means, from discrimination to extermination, and entails violations of human rights and international humanitarian law.”

Now read the HWR that Jahangard has complained doesn’t mention anything about ethnic cleansing:

“Pro-government paramilitary groups entered Dushanbe, the capital of Tajikistan, on December 10, 1992. Led by the Popular Front of Tajikistan, the main pro-government army in the civil war, they conducted a campaign of summary executions and "disappearances" of people of Pamiri and Garmi (regions of Tajikistan that had supported the DPT-IRP coalition) origins, killing more than 300 and "disappearing" hundreds of others. According to eyewitnesses interviewed by the Moscow-based human rights group Memorial and Helsinki Watch, Popular Front soldiers and other pro-government forces stopped buses and trolley buses, stopped people on streets, and deployed forces at the Dushanbe airport in order to check individuals' documents. In many instances, those whose passports indicated that they were born in Pamir or Garm were killed or simply taken away and not heard from again. Graves containing as many as twenty or thirty corpses were exhumed in several places in and around Dushanbe.

The Popular Front committed summary executions in villages on the outskirts of Dushanbe after DPT-IRP rebels had already retreated, and, in at least one instance, the village of Subulak, in places that had never been a base for rebels. In another village called Kyrgyzon in January, the Popular Front, apportioning to itself law enforcement responsibilities, arrested and executed a thirty-one-year-old man (of Garmi origins) whom a neighbor had accused of murder. The summary execution was preceded by a two-minute "people's trial" in front of villagers.

….It is not known how many people disappeared in 1993. The disappeared were principally individuals who supported the DPT-IRP coalition or who were of Pamiri or Garmi origins. Their captors were paramilitary bands and warlords, mainly from Kuliab, one of the regions of Tajikistan that supports the current government. In some cases law enforcement officials mayhave been involved in the disappearances. A highly-placed Ministry of Internal Affairs (MVD) official, in an informal conversation with Memorial, alleged that MVD staff members sometimes collaborated in kidnapping. In addition, he stated that the MVD was most likely aware of the general pattern of disappearances and the reported existence of so-called "informal prisons." In the second half of 1993, disappearances became more professional and, in at least two cases, took place in the full view of local government or law enforcement officials.”

Is it just my POV that an ethnic cleansing campaign occurred or do all the sources I’ve cited in the article agree? I know only two of the sources are available online, but if need be others will be posted.––David Straub 01:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Your analysis of HRW report is an example of unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position, which is the definition of Original Research in Wikipedia. Jahangard 18:04, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Jahangard, what exactly is your problem with this article? That the term ethnic cleansing is used or that historians, NGOs, and the UN have documented the fact that Garmis were killed in mass, raped, expelled from their homes. Don't forget, you didn't just tag this article for "Ethnic cleansing", you also tagged the Garmis article for use of the term "massacre". Is massacre to strong of a word? Is it original research to use that term? Do you think it is POV to use negative terminology to describe how thousands of Garmis and Pamiris were murdered and tens of thousands of their surviving relatives were driven from their homes over the border into Afghanistan where they had to live as refugees for most of the 1990s? I definately thought you walked over the POV line when you tagged the Abolqasem Lahouti with a Iranian Poets category, considering the fact that Abolqasem Lahouti is notable because he's a national hero in Tajikistan.––David Straub 01:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

THE HOLY GRAIL HAS BEEN FOUND!!! A HWR report that uses the term "ethnic cleansing"!!!! [Human Rights Watch Press Backgrounder on Tajikistan] from Oct 05 2001. The article states the following

“The war's greatest destruction and toll in civilian deaths was in the south, where Kuliabis and their allies conducted campaigns of "ethnic cleansing" against local residents of Gharmi and Pamiri origin.”

I’ve changed the wording of the article so that the above source is for the use of the term “ethnic cleansing” and that the term is contributed to Human Rights Watch.

Jahangard, I’ll give you the pleasure of removing the “accuracy dispute” tag :))))) ––David Straub 01:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Jahangard, I think I've been a bit mean and uncivil about this. You had a legitimate question. Thanks for removing the tag. I hope there are no hard feelings.--David Straub 05:13, 5 November 2006 (UTC)