Talk:Citizens Commission on Human Rights

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Talk:Citizens Commission on Human Rights/archive1

Contents

[edit] Uncited, Unverified and Unverifiable Statements

Most of this article is uncited. I know myself that at least this statement which appears in the article is unciwteable, it could never be verified because C.C.H.R.'s stance on it is different that it says. "Scientology holds that all illnesses, both physical and mental, are caused by "engrams" of negative energy in a person's "thetan", and that mental health professionals in fact place new "engrams" in their patients, covering up old problems with new ones." Is anyone watching this page, anyone wish to discuss? Terryeo 19:02, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I have removed this paragraph (second paragraph of the article) to this page because I know it to be unciteable. Besides, it is just plain bad writing and full of words which are not defined. Whomever wrote it is free to site a source for it and then it can be re-posted to the article page with its associated verification. This is per Wiki Policy and I would hope more people who do this sort of thing. Here it is:

Scientology holds that all illnesses, both physical and mental, are caused by "engrams" of negative energy in a person's "thetan", and that mental health professionals in fact place new "engrams" in their patients, covering up old problems with new ones. Terryeo 08:13, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Breggin

this web page says that Breggin has not had anything to do with the CCHR since 1974. it implies that he had knowingly worked with a Church of Scientology front group called the Prozac Survivors Support Group, Inc., when he has said otherwise. the article had implied a close and recent collaboration rather than a long-ago and perhaps accidental one.

My source for the above information

[edit] Consequences of quoting and credibility

One must also consider the date in which L. Ron Hubbard wrote this, and thus the possiblity for changes to have arrisen. Thus, CCHR does not accuse all psychiatrists of being criminals.

When was the statement quoted found on CCHR's web site? Today, April 10, 2005. If they're no longer standing by it, they should no longer be publishing it.

PLEASE DONT ADD COMMENTS BASED OFF OF "OUTSIDE" INFORMATION UNSUPPORTED BY CREDIBLE SOURCES
This page is meant to inform, not to suggest to people who is right and who is wrong
with terms such as "accused" and "supposed" without citing [credible] sources. Thank you.

The sources are credible, except to Scientologists, who are required to believe that all critics of Scientology must be criminals, who must therefore not be credible sources. Remember that these are documents which were uncovered during the FBI investigation into Operation Snow White. Was it critics on the Web who determined that key leaders in Scientology, right up to MSH herself, had committed the largest incident of domestic espionage in the history of the US? No, it was the United States District Court for the District of Columbia. Don't make us laugh by saying it's Scientology's critics who have the credibility problem. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:55, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Antaeus Feldspar, you say that a Scientologist is both unable to judge whether a source of information is credible or not, and that every Scientologist is "required" to believe something. May I ask you, what exactly is this vast, indescribable power whose manifestation causes belief? Because I'll tell you or anyone, no one can make you or me or John Doe believe anything he doesn't wish to believe. But according to you all Scientologists are "Forced!" to believe a certain thing. That is plain wrong. You are just plain wrong about that. I begin to understand better why you suspect everyone's "good faith" but good faith doesn't matter as much as its manifestation. Which is, can a person think clearly? Scientology encourages a person to think for themselves, I would say. That's even the European slogan which has proved a successful means of Scientology's attracting people. No wonder you State the opposite ! That's just not true Antaeus. Wikipedia:NPOV defines our work here. After a subject is introduced (and it really has to be introduced without the carping and criticism else it is not a subject.) Then contrversial (cited) points of view can be introduced which gives a neutral person an opportunity to judge for themselves. It is Wiki policy to cite sources. When you don't, your posts are subject to removal to the discussion page until they are cited. At which time they can be moved, once again, to the article. That's the policy folks. Why, oh why, don't critics cheefully follow it and carp and complain at every enforcement? :) Terryeo 08:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
See, I'm trying to find something in all the above which translates to more than "you claim one thing, but Scientology claims the opposite! Therefore, you've been proven wrong, because it couldn't be Scientology that's wrong!" Far from being an effective rebuttal, this rather proves my point. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:41, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
huh? No, no. Any good piece of verifiable information should be included. We can just follow Wiki Policy and Guidelines and make good articles. If we run into a situation that each side says exactly opposite things, we can put them right butt up against each other, let the reader deceide. Terryeo 20:45, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who to Trust

Sorry, but I don't think that trusting someone who orignally posted "Scientology" with a dollar sign in place of the S is a credible source. (I have since changed it.)

First of all, I'm reverting that, because it is unethical for you to change another person's words and make it appear that they said something other than what they said. Second, if you think that I was that editor or that it was that editor I was counting on as a credible source, you are incorrect. -- Antaeus Feldspar 11:38, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You never justified removing my revisions. Where is the reference that says that the Churhc refers to CcHR as one of those PR groups? Even if they have those PR groups, you're making an assumption that CCHR is one of them. Also, I see no reason for you to remove the possibility that things have changed. After all, it's been 19 years since the death of L. Ron Hubbard (which means it's been even longer since the quote was made), so wouldn't it be reasonable to just consider that things might be different?

Also, I don't think it matters WHO put the "$" in place of the S. It still stands that it's clearly a baised opinion. I'm not claiming Scientology to be everything they say they are, I'm just trying to find the ground in the middle. Please join me in the middle.

I think you need to look at WP:NPOV more carefully, not to mention the text of the article. One doesn't need to make the assumption that the CCHR is a front group of the Church of Scientology to include the true information that a great many people accuse it of being one, and the true information that Scientology has indeed employed front organizations which adds credibility to that theory.
As for adding the possibility "that things have changed", if you can cite an actual reason to believe that they have changed, then that can go in the article. Heck, if you can actually define who these people are that believe the CCHR has changed its ideas about psychiatrists despite still quoting Hubbard's ideas about psychiatrists on their website, then the attributed opinion can go in the article. But the mere speculation that maybe they've backed off their stance of every single psychiatrist being a murderer (despite still publishing it) doesn't belong in the article -- speculation is all it is. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:59, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Before reverting again, could the anon editor please respond to User:Antaeus Feldspar's points? They seem reasonable. Thanks, -Willmcw
The assertion "Mental illness is still being researched, although it has no proof of actually existing. (http://www.oikos.org/radchang.htm)" is so contrary to generally held views that it needs stronger support than a rant from an unaffiliated MD. Anyway, Dr. Baughman seems to be attacking ADD and ADHD, not all mental illness. Further, it is unclear why it belongs in this article. -Willmcw 23:48, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, there is certainly a great deal of question about whether the one website which may be making the claim that there is no proof of mental illness (or may just be making it about ADD/ADHD) is a credible source -- an issue which I know greatly concerns many of the editors who work on this article. -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:10, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The claim that "there is no proof mental illness exists" is flat nonsense. I see reverting such a claim to be similar to any other reversion of nonsense being inserted into an article. --Carnildo 00:20, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Then please disprove it. Please provide a link of biological proof in support of mental disorders instead of removing my links which prove otherwise, or even just making it seem as though they are not important. The relation is clear: CCHR is against the creation of mental illnesses which are not scientifically supported, and thus the question as to whether they even exist comes into play. Before discrediting my own links, please provide solid proof of your own. That's all I ask.
If you were asserting that gravity does not exist would you make us prove that it does? Follow this link, ADD, and see the evidence there. More generally, it is not the point of Wikipedia articles to prove one thing or another. We, as editors, are just here to write verifiable, NPOV articles. What is relevant here is what CCHR claims, not whether those claims are factually true. So it is NPOV and correct to write "CCHR claims that there is no biological basis," while we would be adopting a POV if we write, "There is no biological basis." Anyway, thanks for discussing this point. Cheers, -Willmcw 20:41, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

Posting a few links, two by the same write, does not merit saying that "many people" agree that there is no such thing as mental illness. Especially since that is not even what the links say. More importantly, it does not matter whether the CCHR's assertions are true or false. Our purpose in writing this article, as with any article, is to summarize with a neautral point of view the verifiable information about the article's subject. The subject is the CCHR, not mental illness. -Willmcw 05:57, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

I came here from the RFC to give my two cents on the question, "Is the fact that one website claims there is "no proof of [mental illness] actually existing" all that is needed to state this as factual?" I agree with what Willmcw just said, that this article is not about whether mental illness actually exists, but about CCHR and the claims by CCHR. It would be appropriate, however, in light of CCHR claims that there is no "proof" of mental illness to present the CCHR response (if it exists) to Human Genome Project discoveries pointing to genetic linkage of mental disorders [1]. Also, what belongs in the article are any responses by groups who refute CCHR (perhaps this one for example, or others if they are out there). --MPerel ( talk | contrib) 06:41, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
The anon has indicated that he would be satisfied if we remove the last clause in the disputed sentence:
The practice of psychiatry is considered by Scientologists to be a form of extortion because they believe it has no biological evidence to support it.
Would this satisfy other editors? Some settlement would be nice. Cheers, -Willmcw 05:23, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. --Carnildo 05:58, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
To be fair to the reader, the reasons Scientologists find it to be a form of extortion should be given and properly cited, not just left hanging there. Meanwhile, the anon has violated 3rr, and it appears has been warned repeatedly for it, so I've listed it at AN:3RR [2] --MPerel ( talk | contrib) 06:28, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

I don't think we need to concern outselves with what one solitary anonymous editor who wants to put in highly biased POV content thinks. The article doesn't make sense if we don't explain why they call it extortion, because the word doesn't make sense just standing on its own. Changing neutral wording and chopping out factual content to suit someone who has already made it clear that he does care about following Wikipedia policy makes no sense. DreamGuy 06:41, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if readers are being deprived of necessary information. In fact, we've never even had a cite for that particular claim (which is grounds enough for deleting it). In any case, if you guys want to stick with it, fine. Cheers, -Willmcw 09:20, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
It is too simple, people. Cite a source, make a statement. Cite a source, make a statement. Yo, oh, heave, ho, Yo, oh, heave. Terryeo 08:08, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 192.104.181.229 7-day block

Okay, enough is enough. After a 24-hour block, 192.104.181.229 repeatedly made the same unaccepted edits to this article. A two-day protection on the page gave no comments at all on the talk page. So, 192.104.181.229 is now blocked for seven days. --Modemac 16:16, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • BLOCK HIM AGAIN... He's back and doing the SAME thing. - Anonymous, 4.27 PM 15 Jun 2005
  • 29 Jun 2005 - I notice this user has returned to his habit of repeatedly labeling this article NPOV - and now he is doing the same thing TO OUR TALK PAGE! Is nothing to be done about this one? - Anonymous

[edit] bias

I don't think this article is neutral. ~~~~ 08:31, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

What's not neutral about it? --Carnildo 19:45, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

WHY I MADE THE CHANGES

First off I posted this before I don't know who removed it but whatever...

Quotes non-journalistic standard references (whytheyaredead), and uses incorrect definitions for Scientology terms instead of quoting the actual ones which you can easily cut & paste off their site. Makes suppositions as to why Szasz was more active in other areas for awhile (if you look on his cite and check the dates he was busy on Sociological research for a book in another subject area) and is now he's done with that he's very active on their board (see www.szasz.com & www.cchr.org)

Mine sites actual Szasz, CCHR, Scientology, and official scholarly & journalist level Psychiatic references for what each group belives.

edit 6:52pm August 3rd 2005

[edit] Citation 1

Citation 1 (http://www.cchr.org/candp.htm) just goes to a 404 page. Ransak 07:03, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

for http://www.cchr.org/ I get a good page. when I add candp.htm I get a 404. Terryeo 17:15, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
If you go to Google and search on "site:cchr.org "There is not one institutional psychiatrist alive"" you will get the result page of "http://www.cchr.org//candp.htm". That link 404s; however, you can still examine the cached version through Google and see that CCHR was indeed reposting "Crime & Psychiatry" by L. Ron Hubbard, the complete text of which is seen at http://humanitarian.lronhubbard.org/psych2.htm and confirms that Hubbard did indeed make those unilateral claims about every institutional psychiatrist alive.
Wow, that's interesting. Do you think we can depend on cached versions of webpages in cited statements? Do we really have to deal with everything in present time? HEH. Terryeo 20:49, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
You don't suppose it would be possible to get back to the "good old days" when any Minister + any law enforcement official + any relative could have "good old (wealthy) mom" commited and drugged for life do you? heh ! Terryeo 20:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion about Wikipediatrix removing links and info

This article is about CCHR. To an extent it should present their actions of the past and their proposed actions for the future. Their philosophy and their reason for existence. Their failures and their successes.

Exactly! While I in *no way* associate myself with the Scientologists, NOR do I agree with their religious beliefs and ideas for the society or politics, NOR do I believe in the things as 'dianetics', 'engrams', 'psychometers', etc., and finally, while I don't discern nor discredit psychiatry as a whole field (some of my friends are psychiatrists, and from what I heard from them and their patients, they are good, well-behaving and kind people, who treat a patient as a *human* that should be helped, and NOT as a box of illness syndromes, that should be cured with medications at all price), I appreciate the activity of any human rights organization that is reliable enough, _regardless of who has founded it_.
After all, there were some communists among the ACLU founders, and still it doesn't (and shouldn't) be a cause to disparage the pro-freedom and pro-democracy actions (eg. for the gender or racial equality or ending the persecution of gays) of this organization, many of which were (and are) successful. Furthermore, lots of charities are founded by the Catholic Church and nobody seriously denies their usefulness, despite of what one thinks about CC itself. CCHR has caused *lots* of psychiatry-related laws around the world to change (ca. 30 legal acts that were essential for the mental healths systems in various countries), and has lead to prevention and even banning of some most cruel aspects of involuntary commitment, as forced electroshocks, forced lobotomy, etc. CCHR has exposed lots of abuses (including sexual ones) committed by doctors against their patients. It's CCHR that exposed some doctors in German-speaking countries (Austria, Germany) with the nazi past. It's CCHR that has lots of credit and support of the United Nations. Face it, folks, User:Terryeo is right while most of you who delete his (her??) edits are not (I have nothing personal against you). My statements are:
1. 'I find this article to be extremely POV against CCHR and attacking the good name and reputation of this organization.
2. Instead of describing successes and failures of CCHR, its mission, statute and actions (as it is done in the case of other Human Rights (HR) organizations, as ACLU, EFF or HRW (Human Rights watch)), it points out to the ideas, ideology and religious beliefs of Scientoligists one may agree or disagree with.
3. This article is a big piece of criticism that should be properly marked as such in the specified paragraph (eg. Criticism).
4. With any new, subsequent article of such low quality, that could be labelled as pseudoencyclopedic, Wikipedia will be more and more regardes as 'pseudoencyclopedia'. Think about it, folks, before it's too late: I'm too attached to Wikipedia (someone to claim that it is dependent personality disorder, uh? ;))to let the whole project, that holds more than one million of articles in many languages to derail into POVity and unreliability. Regards to all, Critto

If you don't see that is wrong to remove every success and only have the article talk about failures then you should quit editing or read and understand WP:NPOV. We want an informative article. To include a small section by non-scientology links, shows what goes on is appropriate. What is not appropriate is to simply delete anything which you don't consider valid. Discuss such matters. We want a balanced point of view, balanced by verified informations. So quit it without discussing it, Wikipediatrix ! Terryeo 15:36, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Your unencyclopedic edits have been reverted by a dozen other editors on many articles on a daily basis.
Your reply, wikipediatrix, is in style of And you are lynching the negroes. To me, it is totally unrelated what comments or edits does Terryeo make in other articles; the remarks he made and questions he posted here are sound and reasonable, and it is _unjust_ to discredit them only because he might have (or have not, I haven't read it) been credited with less reliable inputs in other areas. Regards, Critto

When I try to engage you in discussion, all I get is doubletalk, Scientologese, non-sequiturs, and lies about quotes and deeds you mistakenly attribute to me. So I gave up. You can find my reasons for my edits in the edit summary, which is more than I can say for you, because you are the undisputed king (I assume you're male, apologies if you are not) of deceptive and misleading edit summaries. wikipediatrix 16:44, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I am engaging in discussion. I appriciate that you have stated your reasons for not engaging in discussion. Can we discuss what is being included in this CCHR article? Terryeo 17:03, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Povmec was the last person to revert your edit, not me, so I don't even know why you're talking to me. wikipediatrix 17:20, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I am talking to you because of these edits summaries:
  • 09:16, 29 January 2006 Terryeo (Re-inseting what Wikipediatrix removed. Please don't remove it without discussion because it is verified)
  • 20:34, 29 January 2006 Wikipediatrix (rv Terryeo's edit)
  • 23:51, 29 January 2006 Terryeo (Wikipediatrix, it is appropriate to discuss before deleting cited text and links.)
  • 07:48, 30 January 2006 Wikipediatrix (rv Terryeo's NNPOV and unencyclopedic Scientology spam)
  • 07:40, 31 January 2006 Terryeo (Included a past case the CCHR delt with)

and then, finally, the Povmec edit you mention which you are not responsible for:

  • 07:45, 31 January 2006 Povmec (rv by edits by Terryeo to last version by Wikipediatrix: unencyclopedic edits)

yep, that's what I am talking about. Admitedly you might be right about my edits being "unencyclopdic" in nature. In which case they should be discussed rather than deleted. WP:V states, "the threshold for inclusion is verifiability, not truth". What I posted was verified. Perhaps it should be modified in presentation. I'm willing to talk about that. Terryeo 18:49, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

If they're unencyclopedic by your own admission, they don't belong in an encyclopedia and do not require discussion. why don't you try hashing your ideas out on the discussion page before you post them? wikipediatrix 20:06, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
The threshold for admissibility is verifiability, per WP:V#Verifiability.2C_not_truth. But okay, here is what I would like to see included in the article and you shouldn't delete it outright but should discuss such deletions.

== Past involvements with "human rights" ==

CCHR invovles themselves with what they consider to be human rights, such as psychiatrists murdering patients.Official Site

Those hostile to CCHR state the situation differently. (a situation of some years ago) That situation legally resolved, here is CCHR says about Official Site it. OKAY, that's it. My intent is to include some of CCHR's successful actions, attempting to present a track record of the sorts of things CCHR does and involves themselves with. I would also like to make it clear to the reader that CCHR maintains a "report psychiatric abuse" hotline and database via the internet. Terryeo 20:24, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I didn't remove your bit about the database in the article, Terryeo, it's still there. I agreed with you that part was a good inclusion. See, I don't just blindly revert everything you add. lol. wikipediatrix 20:35, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Glad to see you smiling, now about the rest of what I would like to see included ? Terryeo 20:43, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Ritlin" and "Vitimin"

Terryeo, why should we trust information about these subjects from someone who can't even properly SPELL them? Seriously, this isn't just taking a cheap shot: bad writing is bad editing. Your edits are continually filled with atrocious spelling and grammar. This, combined with the sheer number of edits you make, give the reader the impression that you aren't putting much thought and effort into these haphazard darts you're hurriedly throwing. wikipediatrix 22:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I see. Terryeo 22:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
My question wasn't a rhetorical one. wikipediatrix 22:42, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "mailers" are "published"?

It doesn't seem likely. To whome were mailers mailed? If to selected members that would be one situation. If to the entire membership, that would be another situation. While I've never heard of them and while I would grant the possibilty they might be considered "published to the public" I would want to understand them better. Really they aren't, you know, the red hot cite of the week. Can you supply a little more information about those 3 citations? Terryeo 22:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

By The Way, Fledspar, you are frequently applying a double standard to your edits. While you frequently remove information, including perfectly good, cited book lists or studies, you do it with weak excuses like, "Removed so-and-so's POV" but when you revert really weak, poor information, for example, the three "mailer" citations, you use other methods of presenting your edits as being bonafide edits. I'm not the first person to notice your extreme POV, consistently and contually putting the worst of the situation into an article and removing the best of a situation and calling both "Out POV" or "NPOV". Terryeo 22:42, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

That's funny, Terryeo, I was just about to say all of that about you. wikipediatrix 23:07, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
What stopped you from saying it, Miss POV, revert anything terryeo edits? Terryeo 06:37, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
The citations are all given in "CCHR - Human Rights Organization Attacks Its "Enemies"," at http://www.lisamcpherson.org/cchr.htm . I'll add this to the article.
BTW, Terryeo: "what's true is what's true for you" might be a Scientology maxim but it's not a Wikipedia one. Just because you can't be bothered to Google a citation doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It's pure laziness on your part, frankly. -- ChrisO 23:11, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
ChrisO, you so frequently misunderstand, misapply and ignore Wikipolicy that I'll inform you again. WP:V tells you how an editor is responsible for the words he places on the page, he is to verifiy his statements and spells out how and why this policy is to take effect. Read it as many times as you need to, to understand it is incumbant on an editor to verify the information an editor places into an article. If you feel a google search helpful, go ahead and do that too. No citation you ever put into any article should be taken at face value, ChrisO. You have too often used unpublished citations. Even grossly illegal citations, you're not to be trusted about your citations. Terryeo 06:37, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Terryeo, if you showed even the faintest signs of actually trying to edit in actual good faith, other editors would try to forgive your failings. But if you are going to just about wave red flags and screech "Hey! Hey! I'm just here to waste your time! Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha!" then no one is going to bother trying to salvage anything from your .... "contributions". Perhaps you might pretend that the screw-up you introduced to the very first paragraph of the article here was simply a mistake. But then you did it again here, with the edit summary "The mention of Breggin should point to breggin's site. doh." And here's the text of your change, with the part you changed emphasized:
BEFORE AFTER
Breggin has since sought to dissociate himself from the organization. [http://www.breggin.com/Joemccarthylives.html] Breggin has since sought to dissociate himself from the organization. [http://www.breggin.com]
Yes, that's right! With your justification being "The mention of Breggin should point to breggin's site. doh." you removed a link to the specific page on Breggin's site that verifies the statement just made and replaced it with a generic link! What was your next move going to be? Oh, let me see if I can guess... next you were going to say "there's no citation for this claim that Breggin ever distanced himself from Scientology; cutting untrue claim to talk page for discussion", right? Face it, Terryeo, it's over. You've blown your cover. No one can believe anymore that you're even trying or ever were. -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Feldspar, that's more like a personal attack than an indication of how what you linked on the page better verifies what you meant it to verify than it verifies how Breggin is distanced. heh ! Terryeo 06:37, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
No, this is a personal attack. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I gotta laugh

You people really don't get it at all. ChrisO, Feldspar and Wikipediatrix, you people just don't get it. CCHR has one single purpose in mind. CCHR was created by an organization which has proven itself to be legally vital and effective. Guess what its purpose is? .... yet you people insist on keeping the page chock full of what you hold up as failures of CCHR. Does this make me think your editing is POV and unbalanced? ohhhh, well, maybe a little bit. Out of many court cases you find a small handful of "failures" and of course you insist those are in the article. You instantly revert any perfectly valid information I put in the article, information about a few of CCHR's successes. And by Success, I mean events which have significantly changed how government treats psychiatry and psychiatry's scam of raping patients and even murdering patients. For balance, both wins and loses, both popularity and citations from leading citizens and venom from psychiatrists would be appropriate to the article. But what do you people do? You tred along a single, narrow line. HEH. I gotta laugh. Terryeo 06:44, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "leaked docuemnt

WP:V, if it isn't published to the public, it is not to be included in Wikipedia, we are not a rag expose' newspaper. Here is the paragraph I cut for discussion and verification. "In one example, a leaked document outlining a training course for the job of President of the Church of Scientology International requires the trainee to demonstrate "HOW A PR CAMPAIGN ON EXPOSING THE PSYCHIATRIC DRUGGING OF SCHOOL CHILDREN IN A COMMUNITY OR COUNTRY WOULD BUILD PRO AREA CONTROL FOR THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY" [3]. An internal training course from the Office of Special Affairs reportedly requires the trainee to undertake exercises such as "writ[ing] a campaign that you can actually execute from your hat [job] to help cut off the funding to psychiatrists in your area." [4] " and WP:V simply doesn't let any editor cite any document in any article which is not published to the public. Terryeo 07:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CCHR logo

The CCHR logo can be found on the Church of Scientology's document found at Narconon's Place on the Scientology Org Board (second scan, down the page, just above Narconon's logo.) Is it something of interest? If yes we could try to find a clean scan and highlight the CCHR logo to show that according to the Church of Scientology's own document, the CCHR is seen as part of a "solution to creating a cleared civilization" (their words), along other organizations such as Narconon, etc. Raymond Hill 20:47, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the accidental deletion of the previous section. No idea what happened. Thanks for restoring it Antaeus. Raymond Hill 21:17, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't it occur to you guys that to "prove" that CCHR intends to "take out" psychiatry, all you have to do is link to the CCHR's website? I mean it is so obvious. What is this infatuation you guys have with mailers and things which no one can read, which only appear on Lisa mcPherson type websites, etc. etc. The point is so obvious that to use undisclosed, unavailable, impossible to find, long ago mailed out and thrown away "mailers" makes the arguement weak and sound like it is created by hidden school boys fantasy. Terryeo 22:12, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why do you guys do it?

Isn't it obvious? CCHR intends to DESTROY psychiatry. Is that bold enough for you? Why do you guys do it? Why do you mouse around and pussyfoot around with "mailers" and references to 1966 actions by one man alone, L. Ron Hubbard and put his actions 40 years ago as what CCHR is doing today? There must be better information available to you, information which directly tells you exactly how and why CCHR intends to legally bring psychiatry to its knees. You could make a good article, but you often remove the good information which I present in the article (CCHR wins in court) and instead mousey in little mailers and such drivel, poor citations at best. CCHR intends to destroy psychiatry and it is not pussy footing around about it. Surely the article can reflect CCHR's intent, CCHR's court actions, CCHR's education to the public, upon which base it intends to destroy psychiatry. Terryeo 22:23, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

"legally"? Wow, that'd be a switch. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:07, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
At first by exposure. By exposing the undisclosed things that happen when you feed a person psych drugs and psych treatments. Disclosure that Psychiatrists don't actually use "chemical inbalances" in the brain as a base to prescribe drugs with and by exposure of the drug industry driving psychiatry toward perscribing drugs. That's obviously wrong, if patients need drugs then they should be perscribed by doctors, based on need. Disclosure first, that has been the pathway CCHR has taken so far. Disclose of how electro-shock causes memory loss and so on. Disclosure of so-far undisclosed effects of psychiatric "treatments". Terryeo 09:34, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not "trying to prove" anything. I just want factual information to be reported objectively. The paragraph you removed, along with the references is just that: factual information. Raymond Hill 23:32, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
How can I say this so it is obvious to you. Probably any psychiatrist on the planet would write the article as you are viewing it today. Two defeats of CCHR in court are listed. Thus CCHR's inability to effectively act is spelled out (for those who "really know" what is going on). The connection of present day CCHR to Hubbard (briefly popular in the 1950's, right?) is underlined, underscored and made clear to the reader several times. That a psychiatrist once supported CCHR but has removed himself from it utterly, totally and completely is brashly presented as an introduction. CCHR has won some court cases . Psycho-drugs is a huge industry, it is being examined more closely both in the USA and abroad. In large measure this is do to CCHR's work. But a psychiatrist would not state that and the article does not. Attention Deficeit drugs were once forced on children. No longer. no mention of CCHR about that . Don't you see the article does not present what CCHR is doing? Yet if I stick even a single CCHR "victory" in there (The psychiatric laws of Australia were changed due to CCHR's work) not a speck of it remains, you guys are too sure my properly cited inclusion is a "POV" and I might as well say. Yeah, its POV to put CCHR into the article. Yeah, it is certainly POV. oh yeah ! Terryeo 16:14, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
If the psychiatric laws of Australia were changed due to CCHR's work, it certainly should be included, as long as there is a pertinent reference that CCHR did have an influence on the matter. Raymond Hill 16:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Here's what I put in, which was of course almost immediately reverted as being "POV". [5]. It could be stated better, that I agree with and I didn't include the follow on which was in newspapers about how Australian Law got modified as a result.Terryeo 09:25, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
"Why do you mouse around and pussyfoot around with "mailers" and references to 1966 actions by one man alone, L. Ron Hubbard and put his actions 40 years ago as what CCHR is doing today?" - Because Hubbard was the one who founded this? Opponents of Islam still pick up on certain things Mohammad said and take out context certain actions of his some 1,100 years later. Opponents of Christianity would no doubt do the same to Jesus if they could. If the founder of a religion/belief system/etc does wrong, unethical, immoral, illegal, et al things or advocates followers and believers do them then yeah it deserves to be mentioned at every opportunity 40 years later, 1,100 years later or 10,000 years later.
Now speaking of Australia, another modification to Australian law relating to Scientology that you probably won't be crowing about would be the state of Victoria banning the E-Meter and heavily restricting Scientology money collecting abilities. Or this Royal Commission, also from the state of Victoria, that has some charming quotes about Scientology and Mr. Hubbard: http://www.xenu.net/archive/audit/andrhome.html and on a more recent note you may not like to mention this manipulation of the Australian Media by the Citizens Commission on Human Rights: http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s1607574.htm LamontCranston 11:59, 04 April 2006 (UTC)
Whether I "like them" or not really isn't relevant to the article, is it Lamont :) Here's an interesting link. [6] Terryeo 09:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC) Oh, I love it, the second link's story concludes with "Frankly it's hard to say who was using who." heh ! Terryeo 09:29, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
That will be fine, Mr. Lament, err. Lamont. Just fine, go right ahead and create a historical document which traces those developments why don't you? But, if you do, by all means, present the present day situation as well. And I'm sure you must know what that is, or you would not be raking the muck of yesteryear when Psychiatry ruled supreme and could have any person commited on the word of a relative, a law officer and a priest, commited forever and drugged so they could not even speak. More than one young relative got their older relative's inheritence by that procedure ! Terryeo 17:04, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chelmsford Hospital and "sleep therapy"

The subsection entitled Chelmsford Hospital and "sleep therapy" talks around the subject, but doesn't actually say what the whole thing is all about. wikipediatrix 16:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Good point. The link spells out some of the lurid details (rape while asleep, etc). Terryeo 02:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link of interest on the CCHR site

the CCHR site presents this link which it apparently made some efforts toward bringing about. Apparently the U.S. Supreme Court made a decision about the legality of Arizona's law in regard to psychiatric testimony. Terryeo 02:47, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links are not for POV pushing

An external link cannot use language such as " list of articles on the cult of Scientology & CCHR." That is pure POV pushing. Please do not revert that language back into the ELs. BabyDweezil 22:11, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning please

What does this mean? "Prominent anti-psychiatry advocate Dr. Peter Breggin worked with the group up until 1974. Breggin dissociated himself from the organization in 1994,"? I'm guessing he started working with them in 1974 and stopped in 1994, however this is not clear from the sentence. Steve Dufour 04:24, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I fixed it. --Justanother 05:42, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. Steve Dufour 06:49, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
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