Talk:Circumcision worldwide

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1 Verifiability
2 Doubt the sources
3 Disputed
4 Less disputed
5 Indonesia
6 Unsourced & messy

[edit] Verifiability

This is completely unsourced and unverifiable. I doubt that sources can be found, and so I'm tempted to nominate it for deletion now, but I'll leave that for a week in case I'm wrong. Jakew 10:54, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I took a shot. --Trafton 01:13, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
- Good start, but I've removed CIRP as it's not a reliable source. Jakew 08:49, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
  - Thanks, but if that is true, why does the main circumcision article cite CIRP as a source no fewer than 24 times? I am looking at the citations for the circumcision statistics, and they all seem to be based on governmental information. What makes these numbers unreliable, and why are they still being used so liberally in the main article? --Trafton 21:01, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
    - Could you clarify for me: does it cite CIRP's original content, or do you mean articles originally published elsewhere, but reproduced by CIRP? Jakew 08:52, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
      - The numbers are compiled by CIRP, but come from (as far as I could tell) governmental agencies and reputable studies. I would not be including it if I thought they were dishonest. My personal opinions are much, much, much less important than me than accurate statistics. Mis-quoting CIRP won't change reality, after all, so what's the point? Don't worry. --Trafton 23:38, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Doubt the sources

I find it most unbelievable that the overwhelming Muslim populations of the countries of Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, etc. are not circumcised; is the source aggregating the entire former USSR and then someone is extrapolating to its diverse constituent parts? Carlossuarez46 01:03, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

What a little research brings: [1] shows that the Wallerstein source is dated 1985 and if one reads the preface there quoted, he lumps the entire USSR together, with the mostly Eastern Orthodox (or atheist during those Soviet times) Russia dominating by population, the conclusion is likely right but not the extrapolations. I will tag the article accordingly. Carlossuarez46 01:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed

Wallerstein is not a credible source due (1) to its age -- more than half the people born in most of the developing world weren't born when it was written, it's hard to see how it can crystal ball their circumcision status; (2) the misuse to which it has already been put, for by example claiming that because the USSR in 1985 had a majority of uncircumcised males the same is true for its formerly constituent republics -- especially after the shackles of Soviet suppression of religious observance were overthrown -- take for example, 2006 Azerbaijan with an overwhelming Muslim population and not a speck of literature of the post-independence era showing a massive departure from Muslim practice was one would expect if the extrapolation of the Wallerstein claim were true; (3) the methodologies employed have been superseded in more recent sources -- not surprising given that epidemiological and medical methodologies have rapidly evolved in the last 21 years. Carlossuarez46 06:14, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Carlossuarez46 06:17, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Less disputed

Since Wallersteing is now only cited for the relatively stable populations of Europe and Japan, I have taken the liberty of removing the disputed tag. Rich Farmbrough, 12:09 3 September 2006 (GMT).

[edit] Indonesia

On 7-Dec-2006 58.69.62.65 added Indonesia to "Majority of males uncircumcised", leaving it also in "Majority of males believed to be uncircumcised". On 20-Dec-2006 200.74.187.59 deleted the first occurence of Indonesia with the comment Indonesia doesn't have a citation. Then, the same user added reference http://www.circlist.com/rites/indonesia.html and [m]oved Indonesia from "believed uncut" to "believed cut". Indonesia: almost 86 per cent of Indonesians declared Muslim according to the 2000 census..

On 29-Dec-2006 203.87.182.142 moved Indonesia form "believed cut" to "proven uncut". However the reference a) doesn't prove anything, and b) states that the majority is cut:

As I told you for most Indonesians, both statistically [or nominally] Muslims and practicing Muslims, and in many cases for Indonesian non-Muslims too, circumcision is a very important tradition. Of course you probably know that for Muslims it is a must.

Therefore, the citation makes us believe (but doesn't prove) that most Indonesian males are cut.

209.9.198.168 17:46, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced & messy

The article is largely unsourced and messy. I have begun a rewrite at Talk:Circumcision worldwide/Temp. Jakew 19:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I have now finished adding American and European countries. I have deliberately omitted countries that are too small to reliably determine on the WHO map (hopefully other sources can be found instead), or that are grey (no data) on the WHO map. I apologise for any accidental omissions.

If anyone wants to speed this along, useful sources, other than the WHO map, include: